My FGX XR8 denied warranty

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Can you make it go to 100%? Would that give you a huge gain in a GS for example?

At 80% they are WOT on the dyno with no intake pipe, I assume its actually 80 degrees (blade angle) in the software and considering the width of the throttle shaft that last 10 degrees (perpendicular) doesnt add any airflow or is simply not available.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Wow,14 pages of speculation . Regardless of the outcome I have to question why this thread has been kept alive . In the past a thread was placed in a moderated ? area due to sensitive nature of negotiations, which was all well and good for the aggrieved party . That little episode left me more than a little concerned about the reliability/lifespan of my zf 6 sp. little conspiracy theories like confidentiality contracts being signed entered my head .Yet this one has flowed freely, I wonder why ?
In the mean time the Ford brand takes another bashing, poor dears can't win can they .

I do not really agree. There has been a slow discourse and breaking down of the Ford warranty and exclusions, and the relationship between the buyer and dealer/seller.

Following that discussion, there seems to have been agreement that Ford warranty at that time excluded motorsport/performance mods/misuse and what misuse may mean.

Many took the view that Ford was within their rights to refuse warranty if there was motorsport/performance flashing/mods that caused the failure.

Also discussion about whether fit for purpose and statutory obligations of the seller-and given the OP said no flash-was a discussion that in goodwill the dealer/Ford should look after the OP. None of that was speculation.

Now the discussion is moving onto how OPs car could have an unjustified flash- and whether a 3rd party could have done so. Assuming what the OP tells us about no flash mod, and accepting that Ford has an unjustified flash-it now raises the speculative question about whether there was a 3rd party involvement in the unjustified flash.

And by and large, I think the thread has progressed positively and constructively.

Given that I am getting an XR8 shortly, and do not now plan a flash tune until the warranty runs out, I am quite interested as to whether someone at the dealer shop can run a gtf flash, flog my car, flash it back, and I cop the blame.

[End]

What i said was based on what I thought the owner said.

It sounded to me he was saying someone at the dealership mentioned throttle position so I just ran with that. I assumed it was an expansion of what that screen shot suggested. For example a position other than what is allowed from factory. Pick any number I guess.

He has since replied that it was him talking about foot to the floor so you can ignore my theory I guess.

[PepeLePew]

If the thread was moved or removed there would likely be a storm about free speech. Quite honestly I do agree with GREGL on one point, it's a thread filled with 90% speculation, 5 % facts and 5% magic dust. Actually it's remarkable how far and wide this thread has gone based on such limited information. I'm interested to see the conclusion though as everyone would be., and a clarification of the flash/PCM comments from FoA.

[GREGL]

My point was more directed at mods, the O.P circumstances are at this point very ambiguous, If tuned by deceit someone going to be hurting, whether or not it is the owner, dealers apprentice or whoever .
I personally, like yourself had an financial interest in the outcome of a similar thread that was transferred to Private area by mods for the benefit of that particular O.P, nothing wrong with that, but just left a BIG question mark over the lifespan of something I already OWNED . This thread has been left to continue, make your own conclusions !

[sprint347dave]

is there any pics of the damaged parts

[Elks]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Just to clarify, a GS (315) gets 50% throttle and a GT (335) gets 60% throttle, changing them TO 80% is where the gains are made.

Have not checked a GTF, it may indeed have more but I suspect its 60% as a 335 is

Good luck Ben hope it gets sorted.

Daniel

Thanks Dan for clearing that up. That's a long way from 100%.

[kempy311]

Originally Posted by sprint347dave

is there any pics of the damaged parts

Car is still complete.

[Express]

No need to shut the thread down as it’s already in transition until the investigation is carried out.

Even though there have been differing opinions along the way the forum members in the main have been reasonable in their postings and it hasn't lost out to uncontrolled emotions.

No doubt everyone is interested to see how it all pans out and if the OP wishes to inform us of the outcome we’ll at least get some closure and a better understanding of the Ford decision making process.

I think credit should go to kempy for answering questions concisely without resorting to I’m right and their wrong tactics.

Personally I was just as interested to see that members have such differing opinions as to what constitutes abuse and how reliable/strong they believe their vehicles are when subjected to spirited driving.


.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by CAT600

At 80% they are WOT on the dyno with no intake pipe, I assume its actually 80 degrees (blade angle) in the software and considering the width of the throttle shaft that last 10 degrees (perpendicular) doesnt add any airflow or is simply not available.

Based on the 1/4 mile data that he posted, it doesn't look to me that kempy 311's car was tuned.
I haven't seen detailed 1/4 mile Drag Strip data on any other stock untuned 335 kW Miami's, but I've seen the posted Drag Strip time slips of 3 stock FG Turbo's from the XR6 Turbo.com forum and I've got my own time slip data from a Dragstrip.

Regardless of the launch, 660 foot and 1/4 mile (1320 feet) end speeds won't alter much (although the times will) and his 660 foot speed is listed at 139.74 km/h. That wasn't too fast in my view and his 111.24 mph (179.01 km/h) end speed was lower than other stock 335 kW Miami's at the dragstrip.
Also his time over the last 320 feet works out to 2.024 seconds and that calculates out to 173.47 km/h average speed.
By contrast I've seen 3 stock FG Turbo's on the XR6 TURBO.COM forum that gave similar performances. I got the following from the Drag and circuit racing section pages 3 and 4. Members names are listed. I've also added 2 of my own stock untuned XR6 T Drag strip results. All Auto's.
10SECN 660 ft speed=139.87k 1000-1320 feet in 2.032 sec.172.79 k average.
SEATON ..................141.46k......................... .2.018 sec.173.99...............
COOP 450.................142.13k....................... ...2.033 sec.172.71...............
My car Run 1.............141.57k..........................2.0 20 sec.173.82..............
My car Run 2.............142.10k..........................2.0 23 sec. 173.56.............
The Turbo's listed end speeds ranged from 176.44 to low 180's so 2 up it gave about a Turbo performance. Not what I'd expect if it was tuned (the Turbo 1/4 times ranged from 12.509 to 12.802 seconds).
One point I should make is that one car had a K&N filter panel fitted which I don't believe would work, given my car is no faster without any filter fitted and another car had a bottle of octane booster. I've found that boosting the octane over 98 will only help (slightly) in very hot weather (I have my own Racelogic GPS data to back these assessments up).
So his car (apparently 2 up) was about the same as a standard Turbo 1 up , sure doesn't seem tuned to me, I believe a passenger will cost 2 to 3 km/h in end speed.
Incidentally what is the throttle percentage when a standard FG Turbo is flat out.

[mcnews]

Thanks to the mods (some of which I have had serious issues with in the past) for letting this run instead of being patsys for Ford, which I must admit I had expected about ten pages ago for discussion to be locked down, as I have witnessed before when things like this come up.

While Ford is up for scrutiny here, so is the OP, if he is eventually found to have tuned or genuinely abused his car, then he will look like an absolute complete DH.

Same goes for Ford, if OP is proved genuine, they will look the DH.

I hope the OP has been honest, and thus our support is proved worthy, and thus I hope he also achieves a successful resolution and the outcome equals everyone being happy, albeit with some serious lessons learned along the way to said resolution.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by GREGL

My point was more directed at mods, the O.P circumstances are at this point very ambiguous, If tuned by deceit someone going to be hurting, whether or not it is the owner, dealers apprentice or whoever .
I personally, like yourself had an financial interest in the outcome of a similar thread that was transferred to Private area by mods for the benefit of that particular O.P, nothing wrong with that, but just left a BIG question mark over the lifespan of something I already OWNED . This thread has been left to continue, make your own conclusions !

The first thread on this subject was started by a third party. It was promptly closed and the personal info removed.

The following day the the OP started this thread wanting everything open for discussion, that's his prerogative.
I considered closing/removing this thread due to many outrageous albeit mostly emotional comments but as PepeLePew stated their would be an uproar over free speech and the Forums protecting Ford.

The forum as whole are a neutral party in this and hope for a speedy resolution with all cards on the table for everyone to see.

[FGX335]

I don't have my documentation in front of me, and I could be wrong, but I was sure there was a Launch Control procedure outlined in the Owner's Manual. What good is Launch Control except to drag? I would love to give mine some down the quarter, as I should be able to just to experience what my car can do, but they've got me concerned now that I may get pinged if I develop an unrelated problem at a later date.

What good is a sports car with Launch Control if you can only have a warranty apply for normal road use? I just spent $60K on it, and can't afford expensive repairs if I blow something up that should be covered by warranty.

[Iggle Piggle]

I also hope to see a speedy resolution with no gearboxes left on doorsteps.

Tipping Ford will come to the party and this thread will quietly disappear as a condition of that support.

Also tipping the warranty T&Cs may be revisited to include what will be colloquially referred to as the Kempy clause.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by FGX335

I don't have my documentation in front of me, and I could be wrong, but I was sure there was a Launch Control procedure outlined in the Owner's Manual. What good is Launch Control except to drag? I would love to give mine some down the quarter, as I should be able to just to experience what my car can do, but they've got me concerned now that I may get pinged if I develop an unrelated problem at a later date.

What good is a sports car with Launch Control if you can only have a warranty apply for normal road use? I just spent $60K on it, and can't afford expensive repairs if I blow something up that should be covered by warranty.

Ford are/were (depending on the outcome) denying the warranty because they were led to believe the car was tuned. I doubt this would have been an issue if this didn't happen. The explanation posted is using the drags as extra evidence to deny the claim.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises View Post
To me, an unjustified flash doesn't mean the PCM has recorded an anomalous throttle event, it means someone within the Ford network has done an unauthorised or otherwise unexplained PCM update.

As a reference (knowing full well my XR was a turbo beast, but never tuned), I never saw a throttle opening greater than 75% with the foot to the floor in 2nd through 6th. So I am at odds with a 100% throttle opening in Kempy's car.

Originally Posted by Cashie

Yes, it reads like they are saying there is an "unjustified" flash count recorded. ie they found that the car has the stock tune in it, but it is not the original loading of said tune (it has been reloaded since build)...

My mate works at a Subaru dealership, reckons they have a lot of guys coming in claiming warranty. First thing they do is plug in their diagnostic computer to check if any tune has been done. There's no hiding previous tunes, all is revealed with their diagnostics.

[GTP534]

I also thought this thread should have been stopped a long time ago, more in Kempy's interests in resolving the matter. But, ...... , having said that, I'm glad it did progress as it's been very informative.

As asagaai said it has progressed constructively and a good lot of information has come out of it. I don't think it's been too emotional either.

I would hope that we'll all find out how this one eventually turns out and I wish Kempy all the best.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by johnydep

My mate works at a Subaru dealership, reckons they have a lot of guys coming in claiming warranty. First thing they do is plug in their diagnostic computer to check if any tune has been done. There's no hiding previous tunes, all is revealed with their diagnostics.

I've got an aftermarket scan tool, its amazing what the genuine manufacturer scan tool can see and do compared to what our aftermarket stuff does.

[Polyal]

Its very interesting (sorry keempy..chin up mate).

If there is a aftermarket flash then its all over. But if his the original owner and claims its not then what the heck?

If its an OEM flash/upgrade then again, weird, and obviously no grounds for dismissal.

If its because he hit the track then how does that application of power differ from giving it a boot-full on the road? This component doesnt know the difference. If it was diff related, or driveshaft then maybe thats different. But the supercharger can only spin at a certain speed unless there is a belt issue? (please correct me if I am wrong).

As above, given the car is promoted the way it is, and it has a launch control then how is a launch at a drag strip any different for the supercharger?

[99AUXR]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I've got an aftermarket scan tool, its amazing what the genuine manufacturer scan tool can see and do compared to what our aftermarket stuff does.

We use an Autel Maxidas which does most things however I have had a play with a higher spec snap on unit which do even more however they still dont compare to the genuine diagnostic tools.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by 99AUXR

We use an Autel Maxidas which does most things however I have had a play with a higher spec snap on unit which do even more however they still dont compare to the genuine diagnostic tools.

I've got the Autel MaxiSys Pro, we've used a MaxiDAS before but not too keen on it, its too slow and it scans SFA or gives misleading results, and Toyota are a royal PITA it asks for every damn fine detail.

The basic cheaper MaxiDiag Elite does more than the MaxiDAS

Thats why we went with their top model, we havent had any issues with it so far, it scanned my Fiesta in about 15 seconds its pretty damn fast.

I've used the genuine Honda scan tool, it even give you hints on what problems are likely to be, what to do, where to look, procedure etc.

[99AUXR]

Thanks for heads up, I was pretty disappointed with the MaxiDas that I'd seriously considering a snap on scanner.

As for misleading results regardless of scanner I always cross reference with manufacturers fault codes as they vary soo much.

[Falcon Coupe]

Gents this is a large thread with many watching. Can we move the off topic discussion to to an appropriate thread please. This will save wading through posts of small talk and banter when looking for updates.

[Trump]

Granted it has only been half a day or so since the breaking news caused the server to go into meltdown, but are there any updates to the saga Kempy?

[towtaltowing]

doubt theres an update yet since its only midday on the eastcoast and perth is 3 hrs behind

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by 2242100

Based on the 1/4 mile data that he posted, it doesn't look to me that kempy 311's car was tuned.
I haven't seen detailed 1/4 mile Drag Strip data on any other stock untuned 335 kW Miami's, but I've seen the posted Drag Strip time slips of 3 stock FG Turbo's from the XR6 Turbo.com forum and I've got my own time slip data from a Dragstrip.

Regardless of the launch, 660 foot and 1/4 mile (1320 feet) end speeds won't alter much (although the times will) and his 660 foot speed is listed at 139.74 km/h. That wasn't too fast in my view and his 111.24 mph (179.01 km/h) end speed was lower than other stock 335 kW Miami's at the dragstrip.
Also his time over the last 320 feet works out to 2.024 seconds and that calculates out to 173.47 km/h average speed.
By contrast I've seen 3 stock FG Turbo's on the XR6 TURBO.COM forum that gave similar performances. I got the following from the Drag and circuit racing section pages 3 and 4. Members names are listed. I've also added 2 of my own stock untuned XR6 T Drag strip results. All Auto's.
10SECN 660 ft speed=139.87k 1000-1320 feet in 2.032 sec.172.79 k average.
SEATON ..................141.46k......................... .2.018 sec.173.99...............
COOP 450.................142.13k....................... ...2.033 sec.172.71...............
My car Run 1.............141.57k..........................2.0 20 sec.173.82..............
My car Run 2.............142.10k..........................2.0 23 sec. 173.56.............
The Turbo's listed end speeds ranged from 176.44 to low 180's so 2 up it gave about a Turbo performance. Not what I'd expect if it was tuned (the Turbo 1/4 times ranged from 12.509 to 12.802 seconds).
One point I should make is that one car had a K&N filter panel fitted which I don't believe would work, given my car is no faster without any filter fitted and another car had a bottle of octane booster. I've found that boosting the octane over 98 will only help (slightly) in very hot weather (I have my own Racelogic GPS data to back these assessments up).
So his car (apparently 2 up) was about the same as a standard Turbo 1 up , sure doesn't seem tuned to me, I believe a passenger will cost 2 to 3 km/h in end speed.
Incidentally what is the throttle percentage when a standard FG Turbo is flat out.

Compare a FGX time slip with an XR6T timeslip from a diffent day / track means the FGX is not tuned.....WOW...

[kempy311]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Granted it has only been half a day or so since the breaking news caused the server to go into meltdown, but are there any updates to the saga Kempy?

No more contact yet but he did say a day or two. Update just made a call its being picked up tomorrow.

[mik]

Originally Posted by johnydep

My mate works at a Subaru dealership, reckons they have a lot of guys coming in claiming warranty. First thing they do is plug in their diagnostic computer to check if any tune has been done. There's no hiding previous tunes, all is revealed with their diagnostics.

i think that is how it works at every dealership regardless of brand, the reason they draw a line in the sand regarding warranty is blokes do cross the line,
and then expect thousands of dollars in repairs when **** happens.

not saying thats the case here but it does happen.

[EASYBOSS]

Originally Posted by kempy311

No more contact yet but he did say a day or two. Update just made a call its being picked up tomorrow.

Take a note of the odo reading before it goes

[99AUXR]

Photos.