The decline of fossil fuels - and how that effects car enthusiasts

[Franco Cozzo]

Thought this could be an interesting topic to discuss given current world happenings around climate change and fossil fuels - specifically around how this will effect us car enthusiasts, before we're all dead and buried and our grandkids are renting single use cars on some phone app because no one owns cars anymore

There's been a couple nations who have banned the sale of cars powered by good old dead dinosaurs, dug up from deep in the ground, and have been promoting EVs and all other sorts of substitutes to what we've known and used for over 100 years now.

Do you think there will be a stop gap measure implemented to allow people who already own traditional internal combustion engine cars (see 99.9% of AFF) to continue to keep their '****box fleet' on the road?

I have an automotive engineer as a customer at work and we were talking about modified cars and getting past an emissions test, he mentioned you could convert it to run on E85 as a single fuel vehicle, and it will blitz the $1500 emissions test you have to pass before you get the mod plate, alcohol based fuels (particularly ethanol) creates much less nasties out the exhaust compared to typical unleaded fuel.

I have a feeling that while E85 is currently an obscure and hard to source fuel, this could be a great stop gap as a compromise for people who don't have the money to buy an EV (especially at current market rates) while keeping the environmental boffins happy - something that could bring real and tangible reductions through a low hanging fruit easy to implement measure.

For older diesel vehicles there is also biodiesel/waste vegetable oil - one of our forum members rokwiz runs his truck fleet on biodiesel/waste vegetable oil (his build threads are worth a view).

Maybe we could see cars powered by different types of fuels? BMW had done a hydrogen powered 7 series in 1990/1991 and again in 2007 using their 6L V12 7 series and created a dual fuel hydrogen/unleaded powered car (and it was crap)

Now there's focus on hydrogen yet again, maybe in fuel cell applications.

Something I'm also interested in is maritime freight, at the moment ships use some horrible heavy fuel oil substance that is absolutely horrible from an environmental perspective, we've got nuclear powered ships in use for military applications such as large aircraft carriers and submarines - could this technology see civilian applications such as cruise ships and freight?

[Franco Cozzo]

EDIT: - Didn't realise can embed multiple videos in single post

[Franco Cozzo]

1991 Hydrogen 7 series (Recorded 1/3/1991)



2007 Hydrogen 7

[Bossxr8]

What decline? From what i last read oil production isn’t expected to peak until 2040. While the chinese are ensuring coal production keeps rising by building and opening new coal powered stations.

Fossil fuels aren’t going away any time soon.

[98TLS]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

What decline? From what i last read oil production isn’t expected to peak until 2040. While the chinese are ensuring coal production keeps rising by building and opening new coal powered stations.

Fossil fuels aren’t going away any time soon.

stop being so sensible eh,rumour has it by 2030 only the un jabbed will be left/Trump will make a comeback and those that went a step to far will thanks to gravity wade ashore looking for Cav.

[Big_Daz]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

What decline? From what i last read oil production isn’t expected to peak until 2040. While the chinese are ensuring coal production keeps rising by building and opening new coal powered stations.

Fossil fuels aren’t going away any time soon.

Yeah, I heard that somewhere as well, we are nowhere near the end of fossil fuel cars, regardless of what people say...

Me? I turn 40 this year, so I'll no doubt be enjoying my fossil fueled vehicles until I shove off...

[Blue Ice]

The less everyone else burns, the more there is for me!

[roKWiz]

'Diesel...the fuel of Satan." Jeremy Clarkson

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Blue Ice

The less everyone else burns, the more there is for me!

This.

The less the other folks use thinking they doing the right thing by having an electric car et al the better for me, and many others.
0 interest in hybrids/battery/electric Elon tesla kinda cars.


No disrespect to folks that buy em though.

[Franco Cozzo]

I'm with you gents, fossil fuels aren't going anywhere except in the heads of greenwashing assholes with vested interests.

But - we're talking alternatives to unleaded to power transport.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Thought this could be an interesting topic to discuss given current world happenings around climate change and fossil fuels - specifically around how this will effect us car enthusiasts, before we're all dead and buried and our grandkids are renting single use cars on some phone app because no one owns cars anymore

There's been a couple nations who have banned the sale of cars powered by good old dead dinosaurs, dug up from deep in the ground, and have been promoting EVs and all other sorts of substitutes to what we've known and used for over 100 years now.

Do you think there will be a stop gap measure implemented to allow people who already own traditional internal combustion engine cars (see 99.9% of AFF) to continue to keep their '****box fleet' on the road?

I have an automotive engineer as a customer at work and we were talking about modified cars and getting past an emissions test, he mentioned you could convert it to run on E85 as a single fuel vehicle, and it will blitz the $1500 emissions test you have to pass before you get the mod plate, alcohol based fuels (particularly ethanol) creates much less nasties out the exhaust compared to typical unleaded fuel.

I have a feeling that while E85 is currently an obscure and hard to source fuel, this could be a great stop gap as a compromise for people who don't have the money to buy an EV (especially at current market rates) while keeping the environmental boffins happy - something that could bring real and tangible reductions through a low hanging fruit easy to implement measure.

For older diesel vehicles there is also biodiesel/waste vegetable oil - one of our forum members rokwiz runs his truck fleet on biodiesel/waste vegetable oil (his build threads are worth a view).

Maybe we could see cars powered by different types of fuels? BMW had done a hydrogen powered 7 series in 1990/1991 and again in 2007 using their 6L V12 7 series and created a dual fuel hydrogen/unleaded powered car (and it was crap)

Now there's focus on hydrogen yet again, maybe in fuel cell applications.

Something I'm also interested in is maritime freight, at the moment ships use some horrible heavy fuel oil substance that is absolutely horrible from an environmental perspective, we've got nuclear powered ships in use for military applications such as large aircraft carriers and submarines - could this technology see civilian applications such as cruise ships and freight?

This is from someone who used to love laying down a smokescreen for following cars?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

This is from someone who used to love laying down a smokescreen for following cars?

Used to? I still do

[Rallye Sport]

I can't see my any change to my enthusiast vehicles, I only drive them on weekends, if in the future I need to apply for my ration, avoid cities, convert to a different fuel or change setups to pass emissions (it was good enough for VW) so be, but rest assured as soon as I get home I'll be bolting a bank of webers' back on.

As far as my enthusiasm goes, I welcome the change. I've got no interest in my dailies nor the new car market, Mustangs, Rangers and SUV's just do nothing for me.
However, an electric sedan, I won't mention any brands capable of blistering, no fuss performance certainly appeals to me and would definately rekindle an enthusiasm for my motoring future.

[Franco Cozzo]

Same with me, I'm happy to have my fleet of ****boxes, I'll generally always have a V8 car as one of the fleet,

For the sake of being able to still drive them, I'd do something like an E85 conversion if thats required in future... or LPG but the rate thats disappearing from servos is ridiculous

[jpd80]

Governments will continue herding us towards more efficient vehicle choices like hybrids, PHEVs and BEVs,
fuel companies will try to maintain revenue by increasing price which will only affect older ICE vehicles.
Commercial and diesel Utes will probably see a more gradual price rise.

Question is when will we be talking $2.50/litre and then $3.00/litre, forcing people to change….

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Governments will continue herding us towards more efficient vehicle choices like hybrids, PHEVs and BEVs,
fuel companies will try to maintain revenue by increasing price which will only affect older ICE vehicles.
Commercial and diesel Utes will probably see a more gradual price rise.

Question is when will we be talking $2.50/litre and then $3.00/litre, forcing people to change….

Or where is the point where people get the ****s up and pull a Kazakhstan over fuel prices doubling from 16 cents a liter to 32 cents a liter and trash the joint

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-59896471

[roKWiz]

The price of diesel goes up, then simply the costs of transport are passed onto Joe Public.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

The price of diesel goes up, then simply the costs of transport are passed onto Joe Public.

Correct, inflation affecting all freight and goods but without wages growth……

[GASWAGON]

After watching those Youtube Hydrogen clips I dont have much faith in Hydrogen the tanks are huge taking up passenger space and the power loss and travel range are effected massively.

EV's are much more efficient in my opinion and Lithium battery technology keeps getting better and better as we move away from ICE's.

I'll take a Mustang EV anyday over the Hydrogen Beemer!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by GASWAGON

After watching those Youtube Hydrogen clips I dont have much faith in Hydrogen the tanks are huge taking up passenger space and the power loss and travel range are effected massively.

EV's are much more efficient in my opinion and Lithium battery technology keeps getting better and better as we move away from ICE's.

I'll take a Mustang EV anyday over the Hydrogen Beemer!

The storage part of hydrogen is a real pain in the ***,

Also the whole fact that you need to use electrolysis to convert it from water to hydrogen, then compress it into bottles, transport it to a servo, then pump it into your car, where its not 100% efficient, then use the hydrogen to convert back into electricity to power car through a hydrogen fuel cell is a bit silly.

By the time you take into account all those things its sub 40% efficient,

You might as well as take that power from the grid and use it to charge batteries in an EV rather than go through all the above just to get water coming out the exhaust.

Maybe hydrogen could be used as a heating source, kinda like how we use compressed natural gas and LPG - might make sense in that application rather than transport purposes.

I saw an Australian company has already made a hydrogen BBQ:

https://www.heatlie.com.au/hydrogen-bbq

https://www.heatlie.com.au/hydrogen-...ture-of-bbqing

Hydrogen Cooking & Efficiency
The Heatlie hydrogen barbecue is the first of its kind, and proof of what the future holds for BBQing. We strived to show that hydrogen is the future of gas appliances. Through our testing, we found that it's capable of producing the same heat output as LPG and natural gas, through the use of less gas, leading to a more efficient cook.

This works by utilising the high combustion rate of hydrogen to reduce the gas flow, thus producing a more efficient barbecue whilst also generating the same even heat distribution.

Hydrogen consumes .35 kgs of fuel per hour, almost half that of Natural Gas and LPG. This means it is exceptionally efficient, however even better, it will create double the heat from the same amount of fuel. Hydrogen generates 120 Megajoules of heat per kilogram of fuel consumed, compared to 53 MJ for Natural gas, and 71 MJ for LPG.

The hydrogen BBQ is based on our standard 850 models, looks and cooks like any normal BBQ. The only thing that's changed is the addition of a hydrogen regulator and a different burner system that allows for hydrogen use. The best part is it's all 100% Australian made.

Is the future of the humble swap and go hydrogen?

We've had some crazy engine swaps done by this community and some absolutely epic projects - wonder who is going to be the first to use one of those electric crate motors Ford offers?

[JasonACT]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The storage part of hydrogen is a real pain in the ***,
...
By the time you take into account all those things its sub 40% efficient

I was surprised to hear about helium, you try to store it and it evaporates and leaves the Earth. Too light to to remain here. Weird, but I think about Mars, was there once an abundance of water there? Was there intelligent life there? Did they split water into usable energy?

Did it all eventually evaporate?

Nah, I'm going to bed and sleep like a baby tonight, we're smarter than that.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by JasonACT

I was surprised to hear about helium, you try to store it and it evaporates and leaves the Earth. Too light to to remain here. Weird, but I think about Mars, was there once an abundance of water there? Was there intelligent life there? Did they split water into usable energy?

Did it all eventually evaporate?

Nah, I'm going to bed and sleep like a baby tonight, we're smarter than that.

Unlike the Earth, Mars does not have a magnetosphere to hold the atmosphere in.
NASA seems to think it was solar wind that gradually drew Mars’s atmosphere away.
https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/sc...le33910913.ece

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by JasonACT

I was surprised to hear about helium, you try to store it and it evaporates and leaves the Earth. Too light to to remain here. Weird, but I think about Mars, was there once an abundance of water there? Was there intelligent life there? Did they split water into usable energy?

Did it all eventually evaporate?

Nah, I'm going to bed and sleep like a baby tonight, we're smarter than that.

If this mob here on AFF think I'm mad, then they will think you are madder!........

[JasonACT]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

If this mob here on AFF think I'm mad, then they will think you are madder!........

Yeah, but when I said "I think about..." it was pretty much triggered by the content in this thread - and I promptly forgot what I wrote in my post (and slept like a baby) before re-reading it just now.

(Much like I quickly forgot what the BF guys are doing in the FG thread.)

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by GASWAGON

I'll take a Mustang EV anyday over the Hydrogen Beemer!

sure the mustang EV will see the 7 series off at the lights. But..

lets look at something more real world (and they do this stuff on Topgear etc). if there were a race between Victoria & NSW at legal speed limits. who would get there sooner, and lets assume there were adequate filling stations locations for both.

from what I could find(correct me if im wrong guys)
Mustang EV range 370km
V12 hydrogen 7 series range 480km

The beemer can do it in one stop, and im going to assume the fill up time is a lot quicker.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

sure the mustang EV will see the 7 series off at the lights. But..

lets look at something more real world (and they do this stuff on Topgear etc). if there were a race between Victoria & NSW at legal speed limits. who would get there sooner, and lets assume there were adequate filling stations locations for both.

from what I could find(correct me if im wrong guys)
Mustang EV range 370km
V12 hydrogen 7 series range 480km

The beemer can do it in one stop, and im going to assume the fill up time is a lot quicker.

Keeping in mind Hydrogen 7 series of 2007 vintage does 50L/100km on hydrogen.

The Hydrogen 7 was based on the 760Li model and featured two tanks: one for hydrogen and one for gasoline. The 6-liter V12 engine under the hood was modified so that it could use both fuels. Unfortunately, the efficiency the car had on hydrogen was extremely low, returning about 5.6 mpg (50 l/100km) on average, mostly due to the difference in energy density between petrol and hydrogen. Even so, the green character of the car was evident as CO2 emissions were eliminated completely.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Keeping in mind Hydrogen 7 series of 2007 vintage does 50L/100km on hydrogen.

must have a big tank then.. perhaps thats why it was done on the 7 series

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

must have a big tank then.. perhaps thats why it was done on the 7 series

Note that you buy hydrogen on weight rather than volume like unleaded from the servo - its also stored in the tank at circa 5000-10,000 PSI.

Someone who knows science crap and numbers, whats 20kg of hydrogen in liters?

Here's another interesting comparison,

Compare energy density of hydrogen by weight compared to unleaded, then compare it by volume, the former keeps being used as a marketing point but its telling half a story.

Hydrogen is also very light in comparison to unleaded.

Can't remember buying 38.25KG of diesel, but I've bought 45L plenty of times.

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

According to their product specification sheet regarding the eTurbo by BW, it's available in 48-450 VDC versions. I imagine these would be very useful in the transport/logistics industry.

450V DC makes sense because the current draw massively drops, even with 48V DC it would too.

12V DC - there's probably a reason it needs assistance from a regular turbo to be in the system and this extra thing just helps along rather than runs the whole show.

I'm not calling bull**** on the product itself - I reckon its a fantastic idea, anything where you can **** off mechanical controlled variations for electrical is better as you get much more precise control over something, but I'm suspect of a practical implementation, knowing one of the limitations on a 12V DC system is going to be current draw if you tried to replicate an electrical variation of a turbo.

Imagine how much air a GT3576 on an FG XR6T moves and the forces involved in doing it, now replicate that with an electric motor driving the compressor instead of exhaust gasses moving the turbine.

Then do the same exercise on a 15L Cummins engine.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Do you think there will be a stop gap measure implemented to allow people who already own traditional internal combustion engine cars (see 99.9% of AFF) to continue to keep their '****box fleet' on the road?

Yes. I can't see how they could do a hard ban for existing owners, it would be a real vote loser for whoever is brave dumb enough to do it.

Most likely it will be done covertly, probably through taxes, making fossil fuel cars unviable to own eventually. Its already started in the UK. £12.50 a day if want to drive within a ULEZ (Ultra Low Emission Zone), The ULEZ pretty much covers the CBD and surrounding inner suburbs.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Yes. I can't see how they could do a hard ban for existing owners, it would be a real vote loser for whoever is brave dumb enough to do it.

Most likely it will be done covertly, probably through taxes, making fossil fuel cars unviable to own eventually. Its already started in the UK. £12.50 a day if want to drive within a ULEZ (Ultra Low Emission Zone), The ULEZ pretty much covers the CBD and surrounding inner suburbs.

The UK can jam it's ULEZ where the sun don't shine, we have the ULEH already, Sydney Rd Campbellfield, modified Commodore and Falcon special area, admission is free it just needs to be modified