VFacts November 2013

[Gadgetman]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Your kidding aren't you ?

As in his opinion on the 3. It is an average car to drive in comparison to say Focus, Golf, i30. But as for his thoughts on everything else......

[PepeLePew]

How about we talk about Vfacts sales data rather than turning every thread into a import bashing mess? Apparently a helluva lot of Australians have a different view. BACK ON TOPIC.

[pearlhead]

Originally Posted by PepeLePew

How about we talk about Vfacts sales data rather than turning every thread into a import bashing mess? Apparently a helluva lot of Australians have a different view. BACK ON TOPIC.

Agreed. All this banter is pointless

[buggo]

Originally Posted by stevz

I would have thought that was quite obvious Mr. Keyboard expert.

1. Its a gutless fwd buzzbox.
2. It has ridiculous looking, vomit inducing styling both inside and out.
3. It has enough road noise to warrant a pair of ear muffs.
4. Fuel economy is average, exaggerated, and defeats the purpose of a small car.
5. Did I mention it looks dreadful?
6. It is bought in droves by brain dead Toyota type drivers who sit on 85 in the right lane of the freeway and couldn't drive a greasy stick up a dogs......

Surely this isn't your standard of a well reasoned argument?

1. This isn't the early 90's anymore. They have more than enough power especially considereing the targeted demographic.
The base model has 108Kw, the 2.5L has 122kw and 227Nm. How much more would you like? Keeping in mind you've already complained about the fuel economy.

2. I'm assuming here you are a lot older than me, and also not who Mazda had in mind when designing the 3.
I like the way it looks. Would I buy one - no. But if I was married and my wife needed a car, it would be high on the shortlist. It's a contempary style designed for a contempary audience.

3. If it's too loud you're too old? Seriously though, decent tyres would help here a lot. Also the music will always be on and it's not a long distance touring car so not a huge issue. However I 've been in some frinds older model ones and they are no Mercedes with NVH.

4. Low fuel bill is isn't the only factor when buying a small car. Some people just don't like big cars, especially as a city run about.

5. Yeah you have.

6. It could be argued that Toyota drivers buy Toyota's, and Mazda drivers have bought Mazda's. Nor have I seen them drive that slow in any greater numbers than any other group. It's usually old mate in a mid 90's mid sizer visiting the grandkids.

And what you and your dog do with greasy sticks is your business. I'm not one to judge.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Gadgetman

The ride quality of the territory just brilliant in comparison

The great shame of Broady closing will be we lose this great car.

[stevz]

It is easy to see why just about every automotive brand in the world has been falling over each other to establish themselves in Australia - They are here to cash in on the stupidity of Australians, who shun excellent locally made vehicles in favour of whatever mediocre imported garbage is dished out to them - Completely opposite to what the rest of the world is doing.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

The great shame of Broady closing will be we lose this great car.

I don't see anything really replacing it either.

[Express]

Originally Posted by stevz

They are here to cash in on the stupidity of Australians, who shun excellent locally made vehicles in favour of whatever mediocre imported garbage is dished out to them - Completely opposite to what the rest of the world is doing.

I agree with some things you say especially about supporting local manufacturing but I’m not overboard and therefore will pull you up by saying you shouldn’t just pluck something out of the air and use it as fact in an argument just because it may have been the case in years gone by.

Go to the US and Canada and have a look at what they drive.

Barely a GM, Ford or Chrysler in sight in the cities, mainly a mix of Jap and an amazing amount of German cars. Even the taxis are now predominately Prius.

Head out into the sticks and especially the mountains and if it’s not Rams and F Trucks it’s imported large SUV’s and 4X4’s.

Aussie aren’t the only “stupid” ones turning away from the local brands.

I haven’t been to the UK in 10 years but when I was, there were a hell of a lot of small Euros getting around. Maybe someone who’s recently been could add what they’ve seen on the roads.

I’m a big believer in the local product but I also buy foreign because if you don’t give the buyer what they want, the buyer won’t want you.


I actually think the local products are holding up pretty well in sales given the enormous amount of competition they have. You can't always be number one.



.

[Gadgetman]

Originally Posted by Express

I agree with some things you say especially about supporting local manufacturing but I’m not overboard and therefore will pull you up by saying you shouldn’t just pluck something out of the air and use it as fact in an argument just because it may have been the case in years gone by.

Go to the US and Canada and have a look at what they drive.

Barely a GM, Ford or Chrysler in sight in the cities, mainly a mix of Jap and an amazing amount of German cars. Even the taxis are now predominately Prius.

Head out into the sticks and especially the mountains and if it’s not Rams and F Trucks it’s imported large SUV’s and 4X4’s.

Aussie aren’t the only “stupid” ones turning away from the local brands.

I haven’t been to the UK in 10 years but when I was, there were a hell of a lot of small Euros getting around. Maybe someone who’s recently been could add what they’ve seen on the roads.

I’m a big believer in the local product but I also buy foreign because if you don’t give the buyer what they want, the buyer won’t want you.


I actually think the local products are holding up pretty well in sales given the enormous amount of competition they have. You can't always be number one.



.

Agree. When I was in france, there were Peugeots, Renaults and Citroens everywhere. In Italy, there were heaps of Fiats, Looks like patriotism does exist but not as much in Australia.

[Express]

Originally Posted by Gadgetman

Agree. When I was in france, there were Peugeots, Renaults and Citroens everywhere. In Italy, there were heaps of Fiats, Looks like patriotism does exist but not as much in Australia.

That’s because in Europe they make cars the Europeans want.

Falcon and Commodore especially with their performance cars are now a niche market and for other buyers, large family sedans have been replaced by a big mix of other types of vehicles.

Times have changed and car manufacturing is now a global business.


.

[borough]

Originally Posted by stevz

It is easy to see why just about every automotive brand in the world has been falling over each other to establish themselves in Australia - They are here to cash in on the stupidity of Australians, who shun excellent locally made vehicles in favour of whatever mediocre imported garbage is dished out to them - Completely opposite to what the rest of the world is doing.

There is no Australian car company to get patriotic about. Of the 3 companies that manufacture here two are American and one Japanese.

[GQ_Smooth]

Originally Posted by borough

There is no Australian car company to get patriotic about. Of the 3 companies that manufacture here two are American and one Japanese.

100% on the money. Don't recall many Australians riding around in Holden coaches back in the day?

[dimka100]

So no actual numbers yet?

[chopstar87]

why should someone turn their back on a car that could be a better ALL ROUND package then something that is built in Australia, just because its built in a Australia?? that just doesn't make any logical sense. you are limiting your options and possibilities of finding a great car for your needs.

taking out your emotional connection from the falcon out of the situation, you would realise that Ford Australia and US has dropped the ball when it comes to falcon. its a complete joke when you can buy a $20K small car that has more tech in it then a $30-80K large car (XT to GTE) and these days that is the market. its not about power and handling.. cause you cant really use it due to the policing these days and 99% of people don't got to the strip or race track. so why support a company that has dropped the ball when it comes to their flagship car? Get competitive or die.

Ford know this and is why they are pushing the Fiesta, Focus over the falcon sales.

the falcon is still a great car, but it suits the niche market now more then main stream, as it didn't evolve quick enough. the general public doesn't care about 0-100, the handling and a lot of people don't need a large car or if they do, they go up to a SUV which generally has a better all round package then a falcon for their needs (this is why the terri is so good).

also unfortunately the way most of us see cars is different to rest of the world, we see cars as a passion, something that is to be enjoyed, loved... the rest of the world just sees its as a tool, like a phone or fridge, its a white good to most.. its just to get them A - B in comfort and that meets their budgets.

[Smoke Pursuit]

What a load of dribble. People dont just buy cars for technology, if they did then why is Toyota number 1 month after month? Toyota Prado is a good example, stuff all technology in an GXL but you have to wait 6 months to get one.

Falcon has been let down by a number of things, mainly surrounding Ford and their lack of intent / interest in the product. Same goes for Territory, its still a class leading SUV let down by a bunch of morons who can't allocate stock or build people what they want.

[Gadgetman]

Originally Posted by Express

That’s because in Europe they make cars the Europeans want.

Falcon and Commodore especially with their performance cars are now a niche market and for other buyers, large family sedans have been replaced by a big mix of other types of vehicles.

Times have changed and car manufacturing is now a global business.


.

Agree again. But I also think that there are some people who will not buy Ford's or Holden's cause they think the brand is boganish. If theres such a word.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Toyota Prado is a good example, stuff all technology in an GXL but you have to wait 6 months to get one.

This is something I have never understood. Yes the Prado has great off road cred and capability but the numbers of them bought by private buyers for that purpose would be extremely small.

I think the miners are driving the sales of the Prado. Call it "the Hilux effect" whereby they simply keep buying Prados because that is what they have always done and can't be shown/told any different. They certainly arent any more reliable than any other 4x4 out there.

[Gadgetman]

Originally Posted by GQ_Smooth

100% on the money. Don't recall many Australians riding around in Holden coaches back in the day?

The best post on this thread. Never thought about this. But now that I have, I really don't give a continental. There is no such thing as a True Australian car maker anymore so stuff it.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Gadgetman

Agree again. But I also think that there are some people who will not buy Ford's or Holden's cause they think the brand is boganish. If theres such a word.

I think it is more of a cultural cringe for anything Australian. People fear being stereotyped as a bogan or redneck if they dare show any inkling that they like Australian things or take pride in their country.

[Express]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

What a load of dribble. People dont just buy cars for technology, if they did then why is Toyota number 1 month after month? Toyota Prado is a good example, stuff all technology in an GXL but you have to wait 6 months to get one.

I don’t know how actuate that is, almost every time I talk to someone who has recently bought a new car, the first thing that comes out of their mouths is my car has this that and the other.

It doesn’t necessarily mean their car is the most technically appointed car on the market but often they’ll think it is.



There are many different types of buyers out there but the first thing they all do is determine the type of car they want and the price they can afford or are prepared to pay. Then they usually buy the one they think is good.

It’s the domino effect, people buy Toyota because they provide a car which meets their basic needs and people buy Toyota because other people buy Toyota therefore Toyota is good.

How many people do you know that really know their cars and what they are buying and how many of them really care. They buy cars that suit their needs, they buy what others buy, they are happy to be part of the crowd.



In 15 to 20 years we’ll be wondering why does everyone buy Chinese cars, don’t they know the Korean ones are better.



.

[chopstar87]

To your point there DASH GT... "Prado is a good example, stuff all technology in an GXL but you have to wait 6 months to get one"

again its better all round package that meets the needs of its buyers... its very capable off road, has decent ground clearance, better package then a traditional full size sedan and can still fit 5-7people. so yes, tech isn't everything, but its something that can draw sales. a falcon, that can only sit 4 adults comfortably (can sit 5 i know) (due to rear transmission tunnel), doesn't have decent clearance or off road capabilities, not available as a diesel as an option, not as flexible with boot space (a general sedan issue), some people like to sit high when driving and has the greatest white good badge.. a Toyota badge.

I mentioned tech as only an example on why people do not buy the falcon.. i know a some people (mainly women) that wont buy a car because it doesn't have a push button start or proximity key. some people can base the purchase on something this small, because they think this feature is "cool" and the falcon doesn't have enough "cool" features and is something that is becoming a very common feature in smaller cars and cars in general.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Express

Go to the US and Canada and have a look at what they drive.

Barely a GM, Ford or Chrysler in sight in the cities, mainly a mix of Jap and an amazing amount of German cars. Even the taxis are now predominately Prius.

You do realize that Jap companies and Germans are building in the US. They just do it in the south. I also saw plenty of Chev and Ford cars when I was there last year.

[Road_Warrior]

Toyota, Honda, Mazda (although I think they've pulled out of the JV plants?) and Nissan all have plants in the US.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by borough

There is no Australian car company to get patriotic about. Of the 3 companies that manufacture here two are American and one Japanese.

Thanks for stating the obvious, but if you read my post properly you will see that I said 'Australian manufactured vehicles'.
Nowhere did I say dinky-di, true blue 100% Aussie owned.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I think it is more of a cultural cringe for anything Australian. People fear being stereotyped as a bogan or redneck if they dare show any inkling that they like Australian things or take pride in their country.

It just goes to show how incredibly stupid and sad this type of attitude is, because all people are doing is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

I don't know how Australians suddenly became such a bunch of stuck up snobs, but something needs to be done to turn these stupid attitudes and perceptions around, for our own good.

If people want to shun everything in favour of European or Asian then how about they pack their bags, get a one way ticket and go and live over there. That way they can have it all on their doorstep.
Not that I have anything against Europe or Asia, but this is Australia FFS.

[BLUEYBA]

Originally Posted by GQ_Smooth

100% on the money. Don't recall many Australians riding around in Holden coaches back in the day?

True but these 2 companies did and still do to some extent make Australian made cars. The Falcon is 70% Australian. If people bought those cars they would support an Australian product at least and its workers

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by chopstar87

why should someone turn their back on a car that could be a better ALL ROUND package then something that is built in Australia, just because its built in a Australia?? that just doesn't make any logical sense. you are limiting your options and possibilities of finding a great car for your needs.

taking out your emotional connection from the falcon out of the situation, you would realise that Ford Australia and US has dropped the ball when it comes to falcon. its a complete joke when you can buy a $20K small car that has more tech in it then a $30-80K large car (XT to GTE) and these days that is the market. its not about power and handling.. cause you cant really use it due to the policing these days and 99% of people don't got to the strip or race track. so why support a company that has dropped the ball when it comes to their flagship car? Get competitive or die.

Ford know this and is why they are pushing the Fiesta, Focus over the falcon sales.

the falcon is still a great car, but it suits the niche market now more then main stream, as it didn't evolve quick enough. the general public doesn't care about 0-100, the handling and a lot of people don't need a large car or if they do, they go up to a SUV which generally has a better all round package then a falcon for their needs (this is why the terri is so good).

also unfortunately the way most of us see cars is different to rest of the world, we see cars as a passion, something that is to be enjoyed, loved... the rest of the world just sees its as a tool, like a phone or fridge, its a white good to most.. its just to get them A - B in comfort and that meets their budgets.

I agree with most of what you have said in your post.
The Falcon sedan has been left to wither by Ford. No development to bring it up to spec with the rest of the world's sedans.

Regarding handling and dynamics I would have to say the rest of the Ford family would be the leaders in this regards. The Focus and Fiesta have long since been the handling leaders of not only their market segment but also the Ford range. I finally got to give a new Focus ST a run last night (my old man's one) and the handling is sublime, comparing it to my XR5 you can see the evolution.

The Falcon (not so much Commodore since VF) are declining in market share for many reasons that include the competition advancing further ahead (300C which isn't even setting the world on fire with sales), quality control, technology (gadgets and drive line) and more importantly buyer tastes have changed.

Territory is proof that buyers of the traditional sedan are moving to more versatile vehicles, Geoff Polities saw this years ago and really pushed for the Territory. The problem with Territory is the same as Falcon, it has been left behind when it had the potential to be better (look at the advancements the Jeep GC has made and how many on this forum have got one). The SUV market is not something a car maker should take lightly, it, like the hatch market is an area car makers need to be on the ball constantly.

The introduction of so many SUVs and the revolution of the hatchback has given buyers something else to look at, something that may suit their needs better. I personally moved from a Falcon to a hatchback and never looked back. My father after 30+ years of Falcons also moved to a brand new ST Focus and couldn't be happier. There are guys at work who have changed their lease cars from Falcodores to hatch backs because it suits their requirements better. Others have moved to SUVs.

Then with the higher than average incomes in AU, many are now looking at what is available at their price ranges and see that there are other more prestigious models available. Sure they don't have 300kw but these days you don't need that.

Overseas there are just as many (if not more) enthusiasts as there are here. They just have a different selection of cars, just have a look at what many have done with Focus RS and other such hatch backs. The tuning of other cars too is a big market in the US, EU and the Emirates. So we are not unique in that respect.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Territory is proof that buyers of the traditional sedan are moving to more versatile vehicles, Geoff Polities saw this years ago and really pushed for the Territory. The problem with Territory is the same as Falcon, it has been left behind when it had the potential to be better (look at the advancements the Jeep GC has made and how many on this forum have got one). The SUV market is not something a car maker should take lightly, it, like the hatch market is an area car makers need to be on the ball constantly.

I genuinely believe Ford could have and should have done more with the Territory.

Instead of wasting precious development funds on the turbo version, they should have considered a different body style like an LTD version or even a bigger Territory. Or maybe an X3-sized SUV.

It is now apparent that Ford Australia was at a crunch point in 2007 in terms of its long term future. When Gorman announced the engine plant would close in 2010 and Focus III production would start at Broady the same year, this was with a view to stave off a closure in the next decade. The alternative was exactly where we’re going now. They simply put off the crunch point a few more years and left the whole place and its products to wither on the vine in the process, resulting in a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Wretched

The Falcon (not so much Commodore since VF) are declining in market share for many reasons that include the competition advancing further ahead (300C which isn't even setting the world on fire with sales), quality control, technology (gadgets and drive line) and more importantly buyer tastes have changed.

Territory is proof that buyers of the traditional sedan are moving to more versatile vehicles, Geoff Polities saw this years ago and really pushed for the Territory. The problem with Territory is the same as Falcon, it has been left behind when it had the potential to be better (look at the advancements the Jeep GC has made and how many on this forum have got one). The SUV market is not something a car maker should take lightly, it, like the hatch market is an area car makers need to be on the ball constantly.

Some valid points above re factors contributing to the death of our large oz cars , however beyond the the obvious "physical differences of the 2 above mentioned" one can safely argue that our large rwd sedans are infact versatile vehicles, just as they have been so for the last 60yrs.

Large sedans totally designed & engineered for our Australian conditions, accommodating 5 adults in comfort, able to be a family car, sports car, luxury car, work car etc all whilst producing great power & efficiency figures when considering all factors eg power/economy/weight/price.

People too quickly forget their family holidays, towing a caravan, family sedan packed to the brim and still accommodating a family .......... try doing that with half these new "versatile class leading cars" you speak of.

In reality the fact is they aren't half as versatile as our large cars, despite it being a trendsetting argument of late, but more to do with our ever changing lifestyles etc - as an example how many folks now choose to fly rather than drive on holidays.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by stevz

It just goes to show how incredibly stupid and sad this type of attitude is, because all people are doing is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

I don't know how Australians suddenly became such a bunch of stuck up snobs, but something needs to be done to turn these stupid attitudes and perceptions around, for our own good.

If people want to shun everything in favour of European or Asian then how about they pack their bags, get a one way ticket and go and live over there. That way they can have it all on their doorstep.
Not that I have anything against Europe or Asia, but this is Australia FFS.

So your saying force people to buy aussie made stuff? That will work

Im all for some king of incentive for people to buy aussie made stuff (doubt it would ever happen though)
Just because aussie buy imported stuff doesn't make them less aussie compared to someone that does.
Anyone would think they are spending your money. No one cares what you spend your coin on so why do you care what others do with theirs.