"European quality" is it just a myth?

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Disagree with the aircon bit. The aircon in my focus is crap, but the heater will burn your face off even when it isn't on full heat let alone full.
My old AU's had ice cold air-conditioning.

The European aircons are OK up to the mid high 30s which is ok for most Australian conditions. A good old Australian 45 degree day they wouldn't cope, no! One day I'll tell you about having to refit German trams with Australian aircon (the word Adelaide is a clue)!

Next trip over to Europe in summer I think I'll take a container of ceiling fans. I'd make a killing!

[Ben73]

My mum has a golf and it's interior is nothing special. It's had a few things go wrong on it. Nothing major, just things you wouldn't expect on a car less then 5 years old with less then 50,000 on it

[JG34JA]

Parents did the Euro thing when we came out. Nightmare, high servicing, high parts cost, things broke, they held the car way longer than they should have.
At the same time we discovered that unrefined but tough Aussie drivetrains would last, and last.
Then there were many years of absolute reliability with Landcruisers.
But from new, our Aussie Territory with 160K on the clock is solid as a rock and still going strong. Personally not looking forward to not having an Aussie choice in SUV or family wagons, so logic dictates it'll be back to Cruisers...

[xr gr8]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Spoke to a guy the other day with a TD V10 Touareg, just spent $12k on the transmission, $10k on turbos, $4k on brakes, replaced rims because they kept buckling...

....and I bet he hasn't even tried to tow a 747 with it yet!

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by JG34JA

Parents did the Euro thing when we came out. Nightmare, high servicing, high parts cost, things broke, they held the car way longer than they should have.
At the same time we discovered that unrefined but tough Aussie drivetrains would last, and last.
Then there were many years of absolute reliability with Landcruisers.
But from new, our Aussie Territory with 160K on the clock is solid as a rock and still going strong. Personally not looking forward to not having an Aussie choice in SUV or family wagons, so logic dictates it'll be back to Cruisers...

That's a nice sweeping generalisation. I wish I could say the same thing about our two Territorys that have had to be mollycoddled through their low-mileage lives like babies. The Skoda I'm driving now is still tough as a brick at 200,000 ks. So what brand of car was your parents and where was it made? Some Euro cars are better or worse than others.

Also service and parts are cheap for them in Europe where they're like Falcadores. If any Aussie exports made it to Europe they'd probably be expensive to service and maintain and you'd be waiting for parts to come from overseas. Natural isn't it?

[IDT]

I have an 07 BMW 335, and I hate to say it but the car was bought second hand with 35000k on the clock and it is better than any Ford I have owned from new in every way. Dead quiet inside, ride so much more responsive and the feel and comfort of the interior materials, which are like new far exceed any Ford I have owned after 2 years. I have never had any aircon dramas once I worked out that you had to set the bias. I have driven G6E's quite a bit and there is no comparison. I have friends who have 5 series of varying engine types and its the same. BUT you pay twice the price. People simply ignore that the German makes are so very expencive to buy compared the aussie counterparts. If you ignore the price its easy to pick fault

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by AU Mont

we will forget about those earlier astra's though.......

my mothers 04' astra has got to be the biggest euro-bitsa money pit ive ever seen and its still only got 90,000km's. However it does drive very nice !!

The early UK assembled Astras (TR) are great cars.
Then the accountants at GMH got involved and ripped the guts out of them...

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by IDT

I have an 07 BMW 335, and I hate to say it but the car was bought second hand with 35000k on the clock and it is better than any Ford I have owned from new in every way. Dead quiet inside, ride so much more responsive and the feel and comfort of the interior materials, which are like new far exceed any Ford I have owned after 2 years. I have never had any aircon dramas once I worked out that you had to set the bias. I have driven G6E's quite a bit and there is no comparison. I have friends who have 5 series of varying engine types and its the same. BUT you pay twice the price. People simply ignore that the German makes are so very expencive to buy compared the aussie counterparts. If you ignore the price its easy to pick fault

Yep, the 3-series are quite nice.

They are a bit on the small side though (especially with a Manual tranny) and the teutonic dash layout doesn't/won't appeal to many. But they are a solid car...

[MethodX]

How about Japanese quality, and style(or lack of) that would make a good thread also.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by MethodX

How about Japanese quality, and style(or lack of) that would make a good thread also.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Nikked

image

Wrong pic ...

[1TUFFUTE]

sorry but i couldnt be bothered finding the stats this time but if your serious and arent the type to here some unlucky whinging clown and go with his version of the uality......then there are plenty of sites with actual stats from research and things such as recalls from (safety)problems.
From memory tho...ford and toyota were very close at the top with relation to the fewest new car complaints. Holden and vw espescially lagged uite a fairway behind. The holden adventurer from memory is the worst complained about car ever in aus. Bear in mind these stat details dont seperate aus from euro i dont think.
For us personally we have had far more trouble with our vw golf and jeep wrangler the both our falcons. And one fault includes bad paint fade on the vw and RUST around the jeep. Oh and major manual gearbox failure on the jeep.
But im not stupid or niave enough to think this represents these models as a whole.

[KIWI-1]

2012 APEAL Segment Awards--Models with Highest Index Scores
Sub-Compact Car Chevrolet Sonic 770
Compact Car Chevrolet Volt 848
Compact Sporty Car Mini Coupe/Roadster 841
Large Car Dodge Charger 834
Mid Sporty Car Dodge Challenger 843
Compact Crossover SUV Mini Countryman 809
Mid Van Nissan Quest 812
Mid Pickup Nissan Frontier 770
Mid Car Kia Optima (tie)
Volkswagen Passat (tie) 829
Compact MPV Kia Soul 776
Large Crossover SUV Ford Expedition 811
Large Pickup Chevrolet Avalanche 827
Mid Crossover SUV Ford Flex 823
Award Segment (Premium)
Entry Premium Car BMW 3 Series 857
Mid Premium Car Audi A6 877
Large Premium Car Audi A8 902
Entry Premium Crossover SUV Land Rover Range Rover Evoque 845
Mid Premium Crossover SUV Porsche Cayenne 878
Compact Premium Sporty Car Mercedes-Benz SLK-Class 860
Premium Sporty Car Porsche 911 901
Large Premium Crossover SUV Infiniti QX56 854

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/blog-post/qjJwiYZ/a-wide-array-of-brands-produce-models-that-delight-their-owners.htm

[new2ford]

^^
That's a US survey. JD Power's European survey would be more relevant for Australians:

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...tion-study.htm

Scroll down for details, tables etc.

Some of the Euros have improved in recent years (especially Jaguar!) but Honda and Toyota/Lexus tend to consistently sit up near the top in the Euro surveys. However.... Skoda has been in Power's top 10 manufacturers for 20 years straight which is a record and their cars, particularly the Octavia, consistently sit right up at the top group in their categories.

I'm a bit surprised at the Prius being put in the same category as the Superb and Passat though!???? (unless there's a new Prius I don't know about) And I feel Ford could rate a bit higher but you need to balance two or three of these surveys together.

[The Snout]

'Australian Conditions'. Cause the sunlight and weather in Camberwell, Strathfield and Mt.Gravatt is much harsher than anywhere north of Cape York.

Might have been valid 30-40 years ago, not anymore.

[JG34JA]

Originally Posted by new2ford

That's a nice sweeping generalisation. I wish I could say the same thing about our two Territorys that have had to be mollycoddled through their low-mileage lives like babies. The Skoda I'm driving now is still tough as a brick at 200,000 ks. So what brand of car was your parents and where was it made? Some Euro cars are better or worse than others.

Also service and parts are cheap for them in Europe where they're like Falcadores. If any Aussie exports made it to Europe they'd probably be expensive to service and maintain and you'd be waiting for parts to come from overseas. Natural isn't it?

Hi. It was a Renault. And what may be a sweeping generalisation to you is my actual experience, so I'm going to back it.

Lastly, that Euro parts in Europe are cheap is a non sequitur, as I (and many others here) are in Australia - although members are invited from all around the world. If you are in Europe (I like the West Bohemia bit) a local reliable product with access to cheap servicing is a great thing, which is exactly what our Australian built product has been here and exactly what our European product was not.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by JG34JA

Hi. It was a Renault. And what may be a sweeping generalisation to you is my actual experience, so I'm going to back it.

Lastly, that Euro parts in Europe are cheap is a non sequitur, as I (and many others here) are in Australia - although members are invited from all around the world. If you are in Europe (I like the West Bohemia bit) a local reliable product with access to cheap servicing is a great thing, which is exactly what our Australian built product has been here and exactly what our European product was not.

I was asking you to be specific - so, yes Renault, French mmm lol! Check the JD Power Euro results in my post above. Perhaps your parents should have waited till Renaults were built in Romania!

Yes I agree about the service and parts (and insurance and a few other things!), that's exactly what I've been saying myself. If you accept the quality trade-off, the best thing to have in Australia from a long-term operating costs perspective is an Australian car. But car buyers aren't always so rational.

[Danny]

Another euro thread which turns into the usual Yawnworthy French bash...

Gee.. Those euro JD Power surveys don't have Australian car stats in them do they? That's relevant to this thread...

[joolz]

Looks like it wasnt made for the Aussie arm hanging out the windows!

Even still the lining should never come off like that.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Danny

image

Another euro thread which turns into the usual Yawnworthy French bash...

Gee.. Those euro JD Power surveys don't have Australian car stats in them do they? That's relevant to this thread...

Just for the Citroen DS, they deserve it.....

[blackf6]

Um good thread. Long live the quality Falcon.

[flooded one]

I dont like them merc vito vans!! most horrible van i've ever driven. it was 2006 model. it had the rear suspension replaced a few times and even with new suspension it was a dog of a ride!! was fun in the wet thou!!! I dont think all euros are bad cars. I've heard a few horror stories about golfs with their transmissions but i've never driven one so i dont know. beemers seem alright but for the money. it would want too be!!! i think its just the luck of the draw really. I like the current model mondeo but there really isnt all that much european that i really like to much nowdays!!

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by teak81

Um good thread. Long live the quality Falcon.

best australian car of all time!!!

[new2ford]

Now now, the DS was one of the great designs in car history. Stop bashing the French MethodX

Nobody's French-bashing. When you drop the quality ball along the way you get a bit of the cold eye fom the JD Powers and such. Pretty much all countries have copped it from time to time and some (like the French) make good efforts to improve. Those that don't disappear off the car map. Live with it Danny! Sounds like your Renault is one of the good ones.

[Ausromeo]

I had a 98 alfa romeo GTV before my BF XR8 ute. To be honest Im disgusted in the aussie products fit and finsih. Panel gaps, welds/folds, lack of paint, interior materials, and the little things that go wrong.

Ive only had experience with alfa's and bmw's but they are built so much 'nicer', not neccassarily tougher.

If you can work on a car yourself and wait for parts to arrive from europe, an alfa romeo is no more expensive to own then a falcon.

Ill be going back to something euro next time.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Polyal

OK this is very poignant in terms of the falcon and its future....

EU cars have better "quality" because more $$ is spent on developing them, they have higher volumes thus the companies demand huge amounts of resources that enables them to spend the cash on;

1. Designs with better tolerances
2. Better quality materials

IMO thats about it. Give the Falcon the same budget and they will produce something similar.

Agreed. The fact that the Falcon and Terri have such a small budget and they come out brilliant for what has been spent on them. A car that is very safe, drives well, modest tech for the price they are getting sold at. People don't see this all they do is moan and groan on a car that is really now isolated in a small market and has been tried to kill off for many years by its parent company.

I guess that's why they are getting to design world wide cars here.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Ausromeo

I had a 98 alfa romeo GTV before my BF XR8 ute. To be honest Im disgusted in the aussie products fit and finsih. Panel gaps, welds/folds, lack of paint, interior materials, and the little things that go wrong.

Ive only had experience with alfa's and bmw's but they are built so much 'nicer', not neccassarily tougher.

If you can work on a car yourself and wait for parts to arrive from europe, an alfa romeo is no more expensive to own then a falcon.

Ill be going back to something euro next time.

Thats pretty funny, someone who owned a 90's Alfa using the word quality.

They would have to have one of the worst quality reputations ever.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Thats pretty funny, someone who owned a 90's Alfa using the word quality.

They would have to have one of the worst quality reputations ever.

Alfas bad years were in the 70's and 80's. By the late 90's they were pretty much ok again.

[Wretched]

I and my family have begun the transition to Euro based cars.
They've got a Fiesta, a mid 90's Opel/Holden Barina and a VW Polo 77 DSG (replaced a LR Focus) whilst in my garage I have a Focus XR5.

Without jinxing these cars, none of them have had any major issues.
I'd say the Focus XR with it's poor quality Sony CD player is the only downside. Other than that none have any rattles or had mechanical issues. Still awaiting the dreaded DSG failure that everyone seems to believe will happen (60,000km so far).

I agree that the XR5 (and prob all Euro cars) have weaker A/C but then it still works fine and keeps me cool. The quality and fitment is what will continue to draw us towards Euro cars. My parents will be replacing the Falcon XR8 in their garage with a Focus LW ST.

Not everyone has the luck but I guess it swings the other way, we've had shocking luck with all our local based cars.

[JG34JA]

No worries New2Ford, and to qualify the Renault itself (a 12 Virage wagon) was quite tough (designed for North Africa), the nightmare was in parts sourcing, the attitude of needing "specialist" mechanics and letting the car age.

We also got to trial a Mondeo (1990's) in the wheatbelt, side to side with domestic products. Dust sealing was terrible, it wore out quickly and when the exhaust fell off, nobody could get parts for it and a 'sports' exhaust was jury-rigged, much to everyone's amusement. It was replaced with an AUII Falcon which was superb in exactly the same conditions.