"Falcon is dead" drive.com - Page 2

uranium_death · 21-01-2010, 04:12 PM

Don't worry. They'll get it right someday.

jamesson1980 · 21-01-2010, 04:18 PM

What, the production of the car or the journalism surrounding it?? Cos the two seem to be completely unrelated currently

ltd · 21-01-2010, 04:22 PM

Title should read; "Research into topic by journalists (sic) beyond surfing the net is DEAD".

cosmo20btt · 21-01-2010, 04:23 PM

I don't think the Mums & Dads of Aust want to tow there Caravan with a mustang( if they could afford it). If Taurus comes here to replace Falcon they may as well pack up & go home. Why would you add another FWD vehicle to an already FWD bloated buyers line up?

Ford sells in Aust because it is RWD, there must be a reason because anything else doesn't stand up against it.

paulvdb · 21-01-2010, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bathurst77

Question.
Why RWD for Falcon?
Seems RWD is heavier (thus fuel inefficient) and less space efficient thatn FWD.

DO your average falcon buyer (fleets, rentals, mum and dads) really give two hoots which pair of wheels does the work? Given that the VAST majority of cars sold in Aust are FWD it would seem not. Your average new car (esp new large car buyer) is not an enthusiat.

Except that the Taurus is heavier than the Falcon - it weighs 2 american tons. (4015 lbs for FWD and 4224 for AWD). So FWD is really great?

Ahh FWD gives us more room in the same size car...
Exterior - harder to park, need a garage 20cm longer
Falcon 4.97*1.86*1.45m
Taurus 5.15*1.93*1.54m

Interior - where did all that efficiency go?
Falcon - Shoulder Room 1523/1518, Leg Room 1080/989
Taurus - Shoulder Room 1470/1445, Leg Room 1064/968

This is all about Ford stopping the duplication of engineering. If they have to kill off the Australian market I don't think they care. Unless Ford Australia design the GRWD then the large Australian car is over - we'll all be driving Camry clones (or older Fords)

Gaz · 21-01-2010, 05:02 PM

Does it ******** anyone else off that the bloody yanks need to have their tons and gallon measurement values different to everyone else?? (eg us ton and gallon different to uk/au ton and gallon). Do get sick of their being different for the sake of being different crap.

JPFS1 · 21-01-2010, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I6DOHC

Has anyone been able to confirm the last throwaway line yet? Of couse they could have been janitors as the nicely place disclaimer "who Drive believes" allows them to yet again get away with not placing facts in the way of a good story.

Their throw away line is accurate enough, but the reasons are not as sinister as it seems.

Engineering is extremely cyclical.

Road_Warrior · 21-01-2010, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPFS1

Their throw away line is accurate enough, but the reasons are not as sinister as it seems.

Engineering is extremely cyclical.

Pretty much what I figured. Their understanding of how car manufacturers work and how product cycles are run is shallow at best.

glavas · 21-01-2010, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaz

Does it ******** anyone else off that the bloody yanks need to have their tons and gallon measurement values different to everyone else?? (eg us ton and gallon different to uk/au ton and gallon). Do get sick of their being different for the sake of being different crap.

thats just how americans are dude. they think there above everyone. but lets not talk about them. i have plenty of grievances with them.

about the falcon. im a holden guy but i would hate to see the falcon die. i love the rivalry the red and blue has had over the years it keeps people intristed. but sadly people have changed. no one seems to care anymore about cars. everything is about money to most people these days. somethings are more important then money.

jpd80 · 21-01-2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPFS1

Their throw away line is accurate enough, but the reasons are not as sinister as it seems.

Engineering is extremely cyclical.

Those 30 odd contracted employees would not have been permanent anyway.
Is it likely that they have been working on FG II and Territory Projects that are nearing completion?

Windsor220 · 21-01-2010, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bathurst77

Question.
Why RWD for Falcon?
Seems RWD is heavier (thus fuel inefficient) and less space efficient thatn FWD.

DO your average falcon buyer (fleets, rentals, mum and dads) really give two hoots which pair of wheels does the work? Given that the VAST majority of cars sold in Aust are FWD it would seem not. Your average new car (esp new large car buyer) is not an enthusiat.

I consider myself a car enthusaist (but not a hoon) and i sold my falcon and bought a Mondeo last year. I have no probs with how it drives. (could use a few more neddies tho). One of the most fun cars I have driven was one of the last of the Magnas that I hacked round tassie in number of years back.

So who needs RWD? hardline performance lovers. For them Ford will offer RWD Mustang and perhaps FPV might offer All WD falcon. Anyhow but look at all the hi-po FWD cars coming out ot Europe n Japan now.

Tradies with utes (Courier and its derivatives)
People who tow (AWD territory)?

OK this site is full of people who say "RWD or nothing", but the few hundred AFF members (many of who drive used or small cars cars anyhow, so dont matter) vs the tens of thousands of potential buyers who just want safe efficient comfortable economical and dont give two hoots about ?WD

Ford are in business to sell as many cars as they can at a profit, not to appeal to car enthusiasts.

If a FWD falcon could grab a good percentage of Camry buyers and the lost hardline RWD lovers could be sold 'stag/territory/courier. Thats a sound business plan. Especially if most teh RnD costs are paid for by Ford North Am.

I do see what your trying to say but you got to think if Falcon goes FWD, its not like people are going to go "oh look its FWD we might consider it now". Even if the enthusiasts are a small percentage, that is whats going to be lost in sales.
Falcon FWD with no performance image or utes would die a slow death. You may aswell just replace it with Mondeo.

**Fordman1** · 21-01-2010, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Those 30 odd contracted employees would not have been permanent anyway.
Is it likely that they have been working on FG II and Territory Projects that are nearing completion?

Territory update had a lot going through CAD in the last quarter of 2009. Most of that has been finished.

I think that is a great part of the answer....

It would be great to see some movement on Falcon through PD, it seems there is not much happening at all on that front except for the I4 and mid cycle update.

jpd80 · 21-01-2010, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Territory update had a lot going through CAD in the last quarter of 2009. Most of that has been finished.

I think that is a great part of the answer....

It would be great to see some movement on Falcon through PD, it seems there is not much happening at all on that front except for the I4 and mid cycle update.

Maybe as I said earlier EB I-4 hits a note with fleet managers and boosts Falcon
production enough mount a compelling business case for a post 2015 Falcon.
Truthfully, I think that's what they are waiting on, to see if their product strategy
with fleet/private buyers produces real fruit or if they need to do something else.
look at the current dilemma with S/W Falcon, Mondeo sells 315 total in December - not good
so maybe plan B is something else....

That would be them most logical reason for waiting until mid 2011
before announcing which way they go...

FalconXV · 21-01-2010, 10:01 PM

FoEurope went FWD only in the mid 90s, and their chassis have improved ever since. Our product development team seems more aligned to European tuning so it could see an improvement. Judging by WRX and Liberty Passat etc's success, the world is obviously hungry for performance AWD large cars. And about FWD ute- if the Transit can be FWD why couldn't there be an FWD ute?

LeadFoot81 · 21-01-2010, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconXV

FoEurope went FWD only in the mid 90s, and their chassis have improved ever since. Our product development team seems more aligned to European tuning so it could see an improvement. Judging by WRX and Liberty Passat etc's success, the world is obviously hungry for performance AWD large cars. And about FWD ute- if the Transit can be FWD why couldn't there be an FWD ute?

Holy crap, someone with a 'glass half full' thinking outside the square! Hope you don't get flamed dude!

jpd80 · 21-01-2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconXV

FoEurope went FWD only in the mid 90s, and their chassis have improved ever since. Our product development team seems more aligned to European tuning so it could see an improvement. Judging by WRX and Liberty Passat etc's success, the world is obviously hungry for performance AWD large cars. And about FWD ute- if the Transit can be FWD why couldn't there be an FWD ute?

What about a Territory based Ute with higher ground clearance and access to Diesel/AWD?
That would then allow the Falcon sedan to be made much lighter
particularly if the 2300 Kg towing capacity was reduced to 1500 Kg....

Oh, and I have no objection to a FWD Ute provided you don't expect
people to haul a full 1-tonne load up a steep hill.

Most of the larger Transits are RWD by the way.....

**Fordman1** · 21-01-2010, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

What about a Territory based Ute with higher ground clearance and access to Diesel/AWD?
That would then allow the Falcon sedan to be made much lighter particularly if the 2300 Kg towing capacity was reduced to 1500 Kg....

"One Ford"

We can bet the house that there won't be anything like that with global vehicles being assigned to those segments.

eg: T6.

Why make Falcon lighter if there is Mondeo ? (That is what the "powers" will be thinking / saying).

I know there was serious thought on a local Mondeo a while ago, and also potentially a SUV version (Territory like top hot on that chassis).

I wonder what the FoA business plan actually says on all of this. There WILL be business plan assumptions that have already been made. They won't be flying by the seat of their pants (Oh we haven't made the decision yet !), so the decision one way or the other will be in the plan....... It maybe not be locked in 100 %, but the intent will be there.

Osborne was 'sold' on the Mondeo idea from what I've heard. However with Focus now gone and no FWD programs back in Broadmeadows......... who knows, especially with Mondeo sales ATM.

It seems that Burela is pushing the idea of the Mondeo Wagon to fleets, I wonder if that is the foot in the door.

jpd80 · 21-01-2010, 10:47 PM

OK not getting sassy with you but this is my take, global FWDs aren't working in Australia, maybe Fiesta
will be the best of the bunch but please Focus and Mondeo are getting their A$$es handed to them.
And any thoughts of using Mondeo S/W as a falcon S/W replacement look awful shakey when sales barely scratch 315 for December.
Burela must be a worried man.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

"One Ford"

We can bet the house that there won't be anything like that with global vehicles being assigned to those segments.

eg: T6.

While T6 will replace the current Ranger volume, there is no chance that it
will get anywhere near Hilux, That's where a "different" Falcon Ute based on
Territory might capture some sales in tandem, like it does now, they complement each other.

Quote:

Why make Falcon lighter if there is Mondeo ? (That is what the "powers" will be thinking / saying).

I know there was serious thought on a local Mondeo a while ago, and also potentially a SUV version (Territory like top hot on that chassis).

Local manufacture of those cars would not happen for the very same reason Focus went to Thailand,
if Falcon goes that's it for Broadmeadows, no other product will be built there as all can be sourced
elsewhere more cheaply. Don't mean to be negative but "One Ford" volume products have to be built in
high volume factories. CD4 would be cool though, diesels, Hybrids and chance of Ecoboost V6 and AWD

Quote:

I wonder what the FoA business plan actually says on all of this. There WILL be business plan assumptions that have already been made. They won't be flying by the seat of their pants (Oh we haven't made the decision yet !), so the decision one way or the other will be in the plan....... It maybe not be locked in 100 %, but the intent will be there.

Anything that has Derrick Kuzak's name all over it (Ecoboost I-4) is the signal of salvation,
Ford would not invest $230 million on a maybe model like this.
This is the direction Kuzak wants the Falcon to go - he can sell that to the chiefs.

Quote:

It seems that Burela is pushing the idea of the Mondeo Wagon to fleets, I wonder if that is the foot in the door.

He needs to sell harder, 3.0 SIDI Sportwagon is probably undercutting it by miles....
1500 Sportwagons in December, Holden is 75% fleet sales remember....

Brazen · 21-01-2010, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

It seems that Burela is pushing the idea of the Mondeo Wagon to fleets, I wonder if that is the foot in the door.

Im thinking that a Mondeo wagon wont cut it in the fleet world right at the moment and that the Falcon wagon is the only product which will keep sales coming. Even Burela has recently said that the Falcon wagon and Mondeo wagon could live side by side. This seems to be different to earlier comments that buyers will choose one over another.

Lets put things in perspective: Ford sold 315 Mondeo hatches and wagons in petrol and diesel in Dec. Holden sold over 1500 petrol Commodore Sportwagons in Dec.... The Mondeo wagon is not going to save the day, a new Falcon wagon has a much better chance in increasing sales and I'l be there to order a XR6 wagon in dash green if it was coming.

jpd80 · 21-01-2010, 10:56 PM

Pity Ecoboost I-4 Falcon couldn't kill two birds with one stone and be a new wagon too....

**Fordman1** · 21-01-2010, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

He needs to sell harder, 3.0 SIDI Sportwagon is probably undercutting it by miles....

Some good points but I don't need to be convinced.

I think it is a lot safer to have Marin Burela in the drivers seat at FoA rather than Osborne or that clown Gorman.

Yes... if Falcon goes, I think it's "good bye" for local manufacturing for FoA.

Sportswagon won't be considered by Telstra - they could fit more in the boot of a sedan...

Other fleets who buy Falcon Wagon's won't replace those with Sportswagons if load carrying is important.

Mondeo Wagon WILL be Fords pitch to fleets... mark my word......

jpd80 · 21-01-2010, 11:03 PM

Fair enough, I think we both agree that Ford has a lot of ground to make up in fleet sales across the board.
What ever products the end up with I hope they are successful and pinch sales off Holden and Toyota.
That Hybrid is going to be a tough nut, maybe a diesel Falcon with 7 L/100 km would have been better.....

I recall seeing Burela expecting Aussie annual sales to to 1.2 million in 2015 and with it Falcon sales,
that could be good news particularly if we have a very economical model there to boot...

Edit,
If Telstra are down to less than 300 sales a month then they are not a big customer,
maybe Ford is better looking to the private buyer with a Sportwagon...
Heck, they were right with that strategy in the sedans.....

**Fordman1** · 21-01-2010, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

1500 Sportwagons in December, Holden is 75% fleet sales remember....

That number includes 'User Choosers' also...

jpd80 · 21-01-2010, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

That number includes 'User Choosers' also...

As does the sub 400 Falcon S/W number
My dealer froend tells me mostly Telstra and grey nomads....

US kills Falcon · 21-01-2010, 11:08 PM

The Australian Falcon IS dead. If there is a Falcon after the FG, it will bebased on a US platform. Therefore Ford Australia will no longer be in control of the design.

Brazen · 21-01-2010, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Sportswagon won't be considered by Telstra - they could fit more in the boot of a sedan...

Other fleets who buy Falcon Wagon's won't replace those with Sportswagons if load carrying is important.

Mondeo Wagon WILL be Fords pitch to fleets... mark my word......

But Ford are replacing a unique product (Falcon wagon) with a mainstream product (Mondeo wagon), fleets may as well buy Mazda6 wagons, Klugers, Caddys, Captivas, Passat wagons... even Holden Sportwagons.

Really what does the Mondeo wagon offer that you cant get anywhere else from any other manufacturer...?

If I was Holden I would be developing a storage shelf system for the diesel 2wd Captiva for use as a potential future Telstra vehicle.

Mark my words, Mondeo will not be a success in the fleet world. Its Euro origins will price it out of many fleet bids, its high maintenance and parts costs will kill operating budgets, its poor fuel economy (petrol) will have it knocked off many tenders, and its imported origins may have some fleets look the other way. Its a great car, just no Falcon wagon.

jpd80 · 21-01-2010, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by US kills Falcon

The Australian Falcon IS dead. If there is a Falcon after the FG, it will bebased on a US platform. Therefore Ford Australia will no longer be in control of the design.

Still 18 months until that decision, you shouldn't believe everything Motor Trend writes....
Mustang will not share as much as you think with a sedan, i know someone who was on the
D2C development team, they scoped using BA at the time but couldn't get the packaging right.
That lead to a unique coupe shell that's not easily adaptable back to a sedan.
The problem exists and won't go away, it's inherent with Mustang style language.

phillyc · 21-01-2010, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulvdb

Except that the Taurus is heavier than the Falcon - it weighs 2 american tons. (4015 lbs for FWD and 4224 for AWD). So FWD is really great?

Ahh FWD gives us more room in the same size car...
Exterior - harder to park, need a garage 20cm longer
Falcon 4.97*1.86*1.45m
Taurus 5.15*1.93*1.54m

Interior - where did all that efficiency go?
Falcon - Shoulder Room 1523/1518, Leg Room 1080/989
Taurus - Shoulder Room 1470/1445, Leg Room 1064/968

This is all about Ford stopping the duplication of engineering. If they have to kill off the Australian market I don't think they care. Unless Ford Australia design the GRWD then the large Australian car is over - we'll all be driving Camry clones (or older Fords)

Great post. Very well constructed. Looking at those metrics (no pun intended) the RWD Falcon is far more efficient in its packaging and weight.

**Fordman1** · 21-01-2010, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Mark my words, Mondeo will not be a success in the fleet world. Its Euro origins will price it out of many fleet bids, its high maintenance and parts costs will kill operating budgets, its poor fuel economy (petrol) will have it knocked off many tenders, and its imported origins may have some fleets look the other way. Its a great car, just no Falcon wagon.

You don't need to convince me....

BUT..... Ford WILL pitch the Mondeo Wagon as a replacement for the Falcon Wagon.. especially to Telstra.

BTW: Wagon sales are basically 99 % fleet as far as the BFIII goes.

I6DOHC · 21-01-2010, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPFS1

Their throw away line is accurate enough, but the reasons are not as sinister as it seems.

Engineering is extremely cyclical.

Fair enough. There seems to have been a lot of mis-representation & contradiction in the media lately (about ford & the falcon) so I guess it's not overly surprising. It almost seems like the Journalist in question is determined to try and justify the original story he published a week or so ago & is throwing anything he dig up as 'evidence'.

As far as I'm concerned, if Ford (globally) decide to bin the RWD architecture of the Aussie falcon, then they are potentially losing an opportunity to enhance the reputation they are building in regards to driving dynamics. It would be a great day to see a Mustang sitting on top of the falcon underpinnings...would make it a true all-round performance sedan (and would make this aussie, and I dare say many others, proud). Here's hoping anyway.