Welcome to the Australian Ford Forums forum.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and inserts advertising. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features without post based advertising banners. Registration is simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Please Note: All new registrations go through a manual approval queue to keep spammers out. This is checked twice each day so there will be a delay before your registration is activated.

Go Back   Australian Ford Forums > General Topics > The Pub

The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-10-2018, 12:18 PM   #91
russellw
Chairman & Administrator
Donating Member3
 
russellw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 1975
Posts: 106,469
Community Builder: In recognition of those who have helped build the AFF community. - Issue reason: Raptor: For Continued, and prolonged service to the wider Ford Community 
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevsta007 View Post
edit Fpace shouldn't be there either, clearly a larger vehicle
Clearly not. The competitors have all been selected from the VFACTs data - the complete list is below.

The criteria is based on 'footprint defined as length (mm) x width (mm), rounded". Given that the definitions are:

Medium
8,101 - 8,800
Large
8,801 - 9,800
Upper Large
9,801 >

.. they mostly fit inside the Medium category except for the F-Pace (9,842) which should be Upper Large. The Discovery Sport (9,513), Porsche Macan (9,032), Volvo XC60 (8,917) and Endura (9,205) should all be Large, so clearly they can make break their own rules. There are probably others that I haven't calculated dimensions for.


Alfa Romeo Stelvio (8,919)
Audi Q5 (8,766)
BMW X3 (8,764)
BMW X4
Ford Escape
Haval H6
Holden Equinox
Honda CR-V
Hyundai Tucson (8,288)
Jaguar F-Pace (9,824)
Jeep Cherokee
Kia Sportage
Land Rover Discovery Sport (9,513)
Land Rover Range Rover Evoque (8,674)
Land Rover Range Rover Velar
Lexus NX
Mazda CX-5 (8,372)
Mercedes-Benz GLC-Class (8,800)
MG MG GS
Mitsubishi Outlander (8,498)
Nissan X-Trail (8,536)
Peugeot 3008 (8,120)
Peugeot 5008
Porsche Macan (9,032)
Renault Koleos
Skoda Karoq
Subaru Forester
Suzuki Grand Vitara
Toyota RAV4 (8,496)
Volkswagen Tiguan (8,250)
Volvo XC60 (8,917)
VW Golf All Track

Cheers
Russ
__________________

__________________________________________________

Observatio Facta Rotae


russellw is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 11-10-2018, 12:27 PM   #92
russellw
Chairman & Administrator
Donating Member3
 
russellw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 1975
Posts: 106,469
Community Builder: In recognition of those who have helped build the AFF community. - Issue reason: Raptor: For Continued, and prolonged service to the wider Ford Community 
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by prydey View Post
Endura is 106mm shorter than Territory, but slightly wider and higher. Its definitely not the same class as Tucson etc. My folks recently bought a new Tucson and my Territory is noticeably bigger in height and width, and Endura is slightly bigger again.
I'm not arguing with you guys. Territory used to be classified as SUV Large and the footprint was 9,218. The Everest is also classified as Large with a footprint of 9,277 so we'll have to wait for the first month of sales report to see where they actually do put it.

I suspect the disclaimer they use below is the justification:

Note: These parameters are indicative only; exceptions do occur based on market focus and other subjective criteria.

Cheers
Russ
__________________

__________________________________________________

Observatio Facta Rotae


russellw is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 11-10-2018, 12:32 PM   #93
prydey
Rob
 
prydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,221
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by russellw View Post
I'm not arguing with you guys.
All good Russ, I wasn't shooting the messenger. Just questioning VFacts and their classification.

Given how the SUV market has exploded, perhaps they need to update their classification breakdown.
__________________
UA2 TREND 4WD BI TURBO
prydey is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 11-10-2018, 12:37 PM   #94
Vesper Martini
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Vesper Martini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 7,864
Default Re: Ford Endura

So where do Ford have the Escape classified?
__________________
______________________________
2015 Territory Titanium RWD Diesel - SOLD
2016 BMW X5 xdrive 30D Msport
Seadoo Challenger 210SE 310HP
Vesper Martini is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 11-10-2018, 01:42 PM   #95
Bossxr8
Peter Car
 
Bossxr8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: geelong
Posts: 23,192
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevsta007 View Post
So where do Ford have the Escape classified?
Medium.

I was under the impression Ford were using the large category for the Endura. Not sure why it's classified as medium. But as Russ said, wait until VFACTs are released to see where they slot it.
Bossxr8 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
2 users like this post:
Old 11-10-2018, 02:04 PM   #96
Smoke Pursuit
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 22,967
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: DASH/bfiipursuit has been alot of help over the years I have frequented this forum, lots of thoughtful and informed posts, very much a valued contributor. 
Default Re: Ford Endura

Theres flaws in that spec sheet. Especially with the Mazda, the Akera has 19 inch wheels, adaptive cruise etc. Didn't go too deep but its full of holes.
__________________
2022 RAM Laramie 5.7 V8 Here & awesome!
2023.50 Ranger Wildtrak 3.0 Premium Pack, 20 inch wheels.
2024 Everest Sport 3.0 V6 Touring Pack
Smoke Pursuit is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 11-10-2018, 03:32 PM   #97
russellw
Chairman & Administrator
Donating Member3
 
russellw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 1975
Posts: 106,469
Community Builder: In recognition of those who have helped build the AFF community. - Issue reason: Raptor: For Continued, and prolonged service to the wider Ford Community 
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke Pursuit View Post
Theres flaws in that spec sheet. Especially with the Mazda, the Akera has 19 inch wheels, adaptive cruise etc. Didn't go too deep but its full of holes.
Thanks -they are actually back to front in the two sheets. The base one is actually the Touring and the Premium is the Akira. I'll update it later. I've updated it now - oh and the Akira has Radar Cruise.

Russ
__________________

__________________________________________________

Observatio Facta Rotae



Last edited by russellw; 11-10-2018 at 03:39 PM.
russellw is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 11-10-2018, 07:58 PM   #98
DFB FGXR6
Donating Member
Donating Member3
 
DFB FGXR6's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,460
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: For the excellent car-care guide 
Default Re: Ford Endura

Who selects what catorgory each vehicle is listed under? The manufacturer or VFACTS?

If it is the manufacturer, then marketing and public perception considerations would skew which category is selected.
__________________
PX MK II Ranger
FG XR6
FG X XR8
Mustang GT

T3 TS50 - gone but not forgotten
DFB FGXR6 is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 11-10-2018, 08:13 PM   #99
prydey
Rob
 
prydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,221
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6 View Post
Who selects what catorgory each vehicle is listed under? The manufacturer or VFACTS?

If it is the manufacturer, then marketing and public perception considerations would skew which category is selected.
A few years ago Suzuki were advertising the vitara as a full size suv for the price of a mid size. It used to really bug me. It's barely big enough for a mid size!

Marketing people aren't really bothered about facts
__________________
UA2 TREND 4WD BI TURBO
prydey is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 12-10-2018, 07:52 AM   #100
roddy1960
Donating Member
Donating Member2
 
roddy1960's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: St Marys Tasmania
Posts: 3,562
Default Re: Ford Endura

What were they thinking calling it Endura ..Good or bad car , it's a terrible name. Webster dictionary meaning of it

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/endura...

Hmmm
roddy1960 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 12-10-2018, 08:23 AM   #101
russellw
Chairman & Administrator
Donating Member3
 
russellw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 1975
Posts: 106,469
Community Builder: In recognition of those who have helped build the AFF community. - Issue reason: Raptor: For Continued, and prolonged service to the wider Ford Community 
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6 View Post
Who selects what catorgory each vehicle is listed under? The manufacturer or VFACTS?

If it is the manufacturer, then marketing and public perception considerations would skew which category is selected.
Category selection is done by VFACTs although I've no doubt they take input from the manufacturers. Interestingly, as I'm now looking at the Large SUV category, there are some I've found already that should be in the Medium segment based on footprint like the Captiva, Pajero Sport, Skoda Kodiaq and Subaru Outback, the latter by a small margin.

Cheers
Russ
__________________

__________________________________________________

Observatio Facta Rotae


russellw is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 12-10-2018, 08:56 AM   #102
hackney
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
hackney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: A.C.T
Posts: 1,563
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by roddy1960 View Post
What were they thinking calling it Endura ..Good or bad car , it's a terrible name. Webster dictionary meaning of it

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/endura...

Hmmm
Isn’t there a condom by that name?
hackney is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 12-10-2018, 10:09 AM   #103
russellw
Chairman & Administrator
Donating Member3
 
russellw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 1975
Posts: 106,469
Community Builder: In recognition of those who have helped build the AFF community. - Issue reason: Raptor: For Continued, and prolonged service to the wider Ford Community 
Default Re: Ford Endura

Here is the Base level comparison against the 'Large' SUV segment competition. You'll note that some are smaller than the class and the following are absent due to the lack of a diesel option.

Haval H9
LDV D90
Mazda CX-9
Nissan Pathfinder
Toyota Kluger



Cheers
Russ
__________________

__________________________________________________

Observatio Facta Rotae


russellw is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
5 users like this post:
Old 13-10-2018, 06:05 PM   #104
russellw
Chairman & Administrator
Donating Member3
 
russellw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 1975
Posts: 106,469
Community Builder: In recognition of those who have helped build the AFF community. - Issue reason: Raptor: For Continued, and prolonged service to the wider Ford Community 
Default Re: Ford Endura

.. and the more upmarket set of competitors in the Large SUV segment.

The following didn't make the list as they have no diesel option: Haval H9, Jaguar i-Pace, LDV D90, Mazda CX-9, Nissan Pathfinder and Toyota Kluger.

The Holden Captiva didn't make the list as it has no price comparative model.

The following didn't make the list as they are all over $100k: Lexus RX, Infiniti QX70, Maserati Levante, Mercedes GLE, Range Rover Sport, and Volvo XC90.

__________________

__________________________________________________

Observatio Facta Rotae



Last edited by russellw; 15-10-2018 at 10:38 AM.
russellw is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
3 users like this post:
Old 14-10-2018, 08:13 AM   #105
Dr Smith
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melb.
Posts: 4,377
Default Re: Ford Endura

Thanks to your excellent work Russell we can see Endura Titanium is as highly specced as any of it's opposition. I know Ford want to pitch it as premium, it's just not the market perception Ford has in Australia. Maybe Ford could have started with some special features to get the ball rolling, not a discounted honeymoon price special as it's very difficult to then move up to "full" pricing when this period ends, but rather some special wheels, limited colours, special interior, maybe something even borrowed from the EU Vignale. Get in early and get something not available in the regular range. Speaking of which I bloody hope it's not limited to a black-only interior.
Dr Smith is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
2 users like this post:
Old 14-10-2018, 03:54 PM   #106
csv8
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
csv8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Q..10kms west of Rocky...
Posts: 8,307
Default Re: Ford Endura

russelw.."The following didn't make the list as they have no diesel option: Haval H9, Holden Captiva, Jaguar i-Pace, LDV D90, Mazda CX-9, Nissan Pathfinder and Toyota Kluger." My Captiva LTZ has a 2.2 diesel engine. If its a petrol engine it runs very well on diesel !! and the Tech Pack should be standard on the Titanium model.
__________________
CSGhia
csv8 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 14-10-2018, 05:01 PM   #107
jpd80
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
jpd80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,169
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: Thoughtful contributions to our community 
Default Re: Ford Endura

Keep in mind that in Europe, Titanium is not the top trim on Edge, Vignale is.
A subtle but important difference for our market when Titanium looks incomplete.
jpd80 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 14-10-2018, 05:51 PM   #108
prydey
Rob
 
prydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,221
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post
Keep in mind that in Europe, Titanium is not the top trim on Edge, Vignale is.
A subtle but important difference for our market when Titanium looks incomplete.
that may be so, but they have offered the same cars with different spec levels to suit different countries before. I believe mustang is different spec here (or a simplified spec lineup) than in the U.S.

It wouldn't be that difficult to ship the vignale model here and badge it titanium surely?

like with most things, the market will dictate the future, whether they leave it the same, or alter things to suit. Ford do tend to respond to public feedback. They increased the Everest rating to MC after public feedback, for example.
__________________
UA2 TREND 4WD BI TURBO
prydey is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
2 users like this post:
Old 14-10-2018, 09:23 PM   #109
csv8
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
csv8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Q..10kms west of Rocky...
Posts: 8,307
Thumbs down Re: Ford Endura

https://www.ford.co.uk/cars/edge/models-specs/vignale
__________________
CSGhia
csv8 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 15-10-2018, 10:42 AM   #110
russellw
Chairman & Administrator
Donating Member3
 
russellw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 1975
Posts: 106,469
Community Builder: In recognition of those who have helped build the AFF community. - Issue reason: Raptor: For Continued, and prolonged service to the wider Ford Community 
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by csv8
russelw.."The following didn't make the list as they have no diesel option: Haval H9, Holden Captiva, Jaguar i-Pace, LDV D90, Mazda CX-9, Nissan Pathfinder and Toyota Kluger." My Captiva LTZ has a 2.2 diesel engine. If its a petrol engine it runs very well on diesel !! and the Tech Pack should be standard on the Titanium model.
I've amended the original post. The Captiva didn't make the 'premium' list as it has no model in that price range. You'll note it is included in the entry listing in LT/Z form which is the most expensive model.

Cheers
Russ
__________________

__________________________________________________

Observatio Facta Rotae


russellw is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 15-10-2018, 02:27 PM   #111
Bossxr8
Peter Car
 
Bossxr8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: geelong
Posts: 23,192
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by russellw View Post
I've amended the original post. The Captiva didn't make the 'premium' list as it has no model in that price range. You'll note it is included in the entry listing in LT/Z form which is the most expensive model.

Cheers
Russ
I wouldn't even worry about the Craptiva. It's finished now, only a little bit of dealer stock and then this abomination is no more. Replaced by the Equinox.
Bossxr8 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 15-10-2018, 06:24 PM   #112
DFB FGXR6
Donating Member
Donating Member3
 
DFB FGXR6's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,460
Valued Contributor: For members whose non technical contributions are worthy of recognition. - Issue reason: For the excellent car-care guide 
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bossxr8 View Post
I wouldn't even worry about the Craptiva. It's finished now, only a little bit of dealer stock and then this abomination is no more. Replaced by the Equinox.
The sad thing is the Captiva outsold the Equinox last month, 323 Captiva / Equinox 258.

The amount Holden has invested advertising the Equinox over the last 12 months really isn't working.
__________________
PX MK II Ranger
FG XR6
FG X XR8
Mustang GT

T3 TS50 - gone but not forgotten
DFB FGXR6 is online now   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
2 users like this post:
Old 15-10-2018, 06:28 PM   #113
prydey
Rob
 
prydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,221
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6 View Post
The sad thing is the Captiva outsold the Equinox last month, 323 Captiva / Equinox 258.

The amount Holden has invested advertising the Equinox over the last 12 months really isn't working.
Australians are very resistant to change. A new nameplate tends to take a lot longer to build sales than an existing name, esp if there is an existing product that sells alongside. Toyota released the Fortuna but even with a Toyota badge it's taking a while to take hold.
__________________
UA2 TREND 4WD BI TURBO
prydey is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 16-10-2018, 06:06 AM   #114
davenl5l
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
davenl5l's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: by the beach
Posts: 1,983
Default Re: Ford Endura

Equinox has terrible highway milage and useless headlights
__________________
clevo mafia (sadly sold) 351c xe manual (now with short shifting 5sp goodness) xc gs coupe project...hmm more clevo for me new daily 2005 ba sr
davenl5l is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 16-10-2018, 10:46 AM   #115
csv8
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
csv8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Q..10kms west of Rocky...
Posts: 8,307
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by prydey View Post
Australians are very resistant to change. A new nameplate tends to take a lot longer to build sales than an existing name, esp if there is an existing product that sells alongside. Toyota released the Fortuna but even with a Toyota badge it's taking a while to take hold.
Maybe they should call Edge Territory not Endura might give it a fighting chance?
__________________
CSGhia
csv8 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 16-10-2018, 10:54 AM   #116
prydey
Rob
 
prydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,221
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by csv8 View Post
Maybe they should call Edge Territory not Endura might give it a fighting chance?
wrong. look at commodore.

don't insult the punters. everyone knows its not a territory. giving it a new identity is the correct move.

as for yourself, why do you frequent this forum so much? You continually bag every new product, usually long before it even goes on sale! I don't recall you ever having a positive comment to say about a Ford product.

I understand this forum is quite a good social platform to many but if you don't like a product, just don't click on that thread.
__________________
UA2 TREND 4WD BI TURBO
prydey is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
5 users like this post:
Old 16-10-2018, 01:45 PM   #117
Bossxr8
Peter Car
 
Bossxr8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: geelong
Posts: 23,192
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6
The sad thing is the Captiva outsold the Equinox last month, 323 Captiva / Equinox 258.

The amount Holden has invested advertising the Equinox over the last 12 months really isn't working.
Equinox has been an epic fail. Pumped a shed load of money into advertising too. And no one wants to know about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prydey
Australians are very resistant to change. A new nameplate tends to take a lot longer to build sales than an existing name, esp if there is an existing product that sells alongside. Toyota released the Fortuna but even with a Toyota badge it's taking a while to take hold.
Problem is the Holden badge, not the Equinox one. Brand is poison now.

The Fortuna's problem is it's just crap, and looks crap. For people who are too poor to buy a Prado.
Bossxr8 is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Old 25-10-2018, 08:56 AM   #118
Dr Smith
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melb.
Posts: 4,377
Default Re: Ford Endura

Now that Acadia pricing and specs are out will be interesting to see which way the sales of both Endura and Acadia go..one is diesel only 5-seater aimed by Ford as "premium" the other a petrol only 7 seater which on paper seems to offer better value...until Russell updates his excellent spreadsheets.....
Wonder if Acadia can make inroads into Kluger and CX-9, these being petrol only 7 seaters.
I still feel that for Ford to aim Endura as premium, it's spec list is fine, it's powertrain isn't and it's asking a few grand too much when it cannot offer 7 seats....and a more powerful engine is offered in Ranger and Everest now.

Last edited by Dr Smith; 25-10-2018 at 09:02 AM.
Dr Smith is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-10-2018, 09:21 AM   #119
Vesper Martini
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
 
Vesper Martini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 7,864
Default Re: Ford Endura

From what I read about Acadia, it may transition former commodore buyers to an SUV. pretty much the same V6 engine - cheap. it might do ok..
__________________
______________________________
2015 Territory Titanium RWD Diesel - SOLD
2016 BMW X5 xdrive 30D Msport
Seadoo Challenger 210SE 310HP
Vesper Martini is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
Old 25-10-2018, 10:09 AM   #120
prydey
Rob
 
prydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,221
Default Re: Ford Endura

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Smith View Post
I still feel that for Ford to aim Endura as premium, it's spec list is fine, it's powertrain isn't
I admit I also questioned the engine specs, however now that I know it's kerb weight, which it's about 500kg lighter than territory, with same power and torque, it should actually go ok. I'd imagine the gearing will be better than territory also.

Economy will be more important than performance if the current fuel price trend continues.
__________________
UA2 TREND 4WD BI TURBO
prydey is offline   Reply With Quote Multi-Quote with this Post
This user likes this post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 11:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Other than what is legally copyrighted by the respective owners, this site is copyright www.fordforums.com.au
Positive SSL