Hazards of Electric Vehicles

Warrenk · 12-07-2021, 02:27 PM

Everyone knows the hazards working on ICE vehicles. Electric vehicles are a bit different. These vehicles run a reasonably high voltage and under the rules today the voltage they run at people need to be licensed electrician to work on them. You can't see or smell electrical voltage, and dc does more damage than ac. Currently these vehicles are not main stream enough for people to be working on them. Once they become more plentiful in the second hand market howe long will it take for the first electrocution of DIY mechanic.

Franco Cozzo · 12-07-2021, 03:00 PM

There's currently no regulation around EVs, hell you don't even cover EVs or hybrid vehicles as part of the auto electrical apprenticeship.

At least not circa 2014 when I finished my apprenticeship

**Rallye Sport** · 12-07-2021, 03:02 PM

All of the electric equipment we have at work have isolators so I'd deem them fairly safe to work on.
Theres always the idiot factor though and the day they don't get isolated. My bets on a catastrophe are sooner rather than later. But no greater than working on an ICE vehicle.

Bossxr8 · 12-07-2021, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

There's currently no regulation around EVs, hell you don't even cover EVs or hybrid vehicles as part of the auto electrical apprenticeship.

At least not circa 2014 when I finished my apprenticeship

I've known some mechs who have done hybrid and EV modules at Tafe. Only a recent thing though. Last 2 or so years.

Franco Cozzo · 12-07-2021, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I've known some mechs who have done hybrid and EV modules at Tafe. Only a recent thing though. Last 2 or so years.

In my day it was actually a full course with a specialist teacher (Mr Eccles if you're still alive and reading this!) but it was only offered to specific manufacturers as part of their courses - IE Nissan mechanics had a full course on EVs in relation to the Leaf in partnership with the TAFE but it wasn't offered to the rest of us auto electricians.

The curriculum was developed and it was there but locked up in partnership with manufacturers, not for the independents.

The most modern part of my course was the SRS module which covered how the airbags in an EF Falcon worked

It had virtually no relevance past the 1990s/early 00s.

Anyone here do their time at Kangan Batman/Kangan Institute Coburg/Richmond/Docklands? I'm pretty sure one of us here went through Coburg in the 1980s - nothing had changed when I went through it decades later at Coburg with all the test engines and setups.

383hq · 12-07-2021, 09:43 PM

I'd like to do the course to handle one point twenty one gigawatts.
"Dr Brown"

That flux capacitor would likely beat the Rimac,
although I hear they are starting small with super capacitors used for jump starters, so I guess I'll have to wait a decade or so.

I think emergency services have all had training with dealing with EV fires. Sounds like it might come in handy....

I'm old enough to remember people of my age setting off air bags due to that new fangled "canbus" in landcruisers looking for positive wires to use.

Franco Cozzo · 12-07-2021, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 383hq

I'd like to do the course to handle one point twenty one gigawatts.
"Dr Brown"

That flux capacitor would likely beat the Rimac,
although I hear they are starting small with super capacitors used for jump starters, so I guess I'll have to wait a decade or so.

I think emergency services have all had training with dealing with EV fires. Sounds like it might come in handy....

I'm old enough to remember people of my age setting off air bags due to that new fangled "canbus" in landcruisers looking for positive wires to use.

I've redone someone's electric brake system that the mighty ex mechanic father in law graciously installed for my customer, pulling power from the SRS by splicing onto it - oops!

Hats off for initiative pops, armed with the mighty test light but yellow connectors mean don't touch me, I think it's time you just enjoy being a grey nomad and leave contorting under the dash to those more flexible

happy1 · 13-07-2021, 02:38 AM

Hi,
There probably are training courses (full time or possibly evening) that can be taken for people that need it, or wish to work on EVs.

I don't find EVs that dangerous, and it appears a little over-rated to say EVs are so dangerous to work on. On a normal EV there is only one cable from the battery pack to the inverter / motor unit, and and a cable from the charging plug to the battery pack. These cables are bright orange, and have special connectors that are made as safe as possible, where you would need to purposely stick a tool or object into the connector to touch the terminals. To do that goes against common sense, similar to not put items into your wall sockets in the house also.

There are more specialised tasks such as opening the battery pack to do internal repairs, but that is probably not even done at the regular car dealers and local repairers.

It is unfortunately that near all damaged EVs seems to become statutory writeoffs. I don't know if that is decided by the insurers, or by the repair industry, or others.
Obviously manufacturers such as Tesla have their own insurance, and with their monopoly for repairs and servicing, its obvious why Tesla vehicles becomes stat writeoffs. It's actually strange they are sold at auctions at all, not just taken away by Tesla and crushed.
But I have also seen other EVs becoming stat writeoffs, BMW i3, and Hyundai Kona with small damages have all been stat writeoffs.

When an EV has a crash impact, at the same time as the airbag system goes off, the battery isolator pop also. Batteries from EVs wrecked are just as dangerous as the EVs repaired, so I don't understand the difference, why they should be stat. writeoffs.

I'm looking to find a damaged EV one day, and repair or convert into another body shell.
I've seen a few repairable EVs, a Nissan Leaf with just minor dent in the front guard, and there was one Tesla recently with very light front damage. It must have had another insurer than Tesla's own. And I saw a BMW i8 at the auction website a while back. It had a small side damage.

Cheers,

au2000 · 13-07-2021, 07:02 AM

I read the title of this thread and was so disappointed ….. was so expecting more of this..
https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/353673376957705640/

**mad2** · 13-07-2021, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au2000

I read the title of this thread and was so disappointed ….. was so expecting more of this..
https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/353673376957705640/

that's just one of those NO! .... just NO!

Vesper Martini · 13-07-2021, 10:41 AM

I was expecting to read something about the dangers when car accidents occur.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberth...h=5d97746d6c6e

deesun · 14-07-2021, 01:15 AM

Plenty of EV's in other parts of the world, way more than here. I would have guessed we would have heard of all the ppl who got electrocuted by the haters by now if there had been many/any.

Top_Ghia · 14-07-2021, 10:39 PM

We just got the EV tool kit in at work. There’s plenty of insulated hand tools as you would expect. There’s also some expensive test equipment in there.

But what was really sobering was the large insulated hook that is supplied to pull dead mechanics of EV’s when they have been electrocuted. Holding that thing really slams home the reality of the dangers of working with 400 and 800 Volts DC.

So in 10 years every mechanic will be pulling these things apart. Some will perish. Probably some of them through no fault of their own when things short out or insulation brakes down. Some will fail to follow guidelines or lack training and may pay a very dear price.

Franco Cozzo · 14-07-2021, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

We just got the EV tool kit in at work. There’s plenty of insulated hand tools as you would expect. There’s also some expensive test equipment in there.

But what was really sobering was the large insulated hook that is supplied to pull dead mechanics of EV’s when they have been electrocuted. Holding that thing really slams home the reality of the dangers of working with 400 and 800 Volts DC.

So in 10 years every mechanic will be pulling these things apart. Some will perish. Probably some of them through no fault of their own when things short out or insulation brakes down. Some will fail to follow guidelines or lack training and may pay a very dear price.

Puts into perspective when you have a mouse plague and they chew through wires under the bonnet exposing the inner wire on those high voltage circuits.

Looks like there is an Australian Standard for EVs:

https://infostore.saiglobal.com/en-u..._as_as_212931/

http://library.safework.sa.gov.au/fu...sp?recno=67246

https://www.safework.nsw.gov.au/haza...ctric-vehicles

b0son · 15-07-2021, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

Some will fail to follow guidelines or lack training and may pay a very dear price.

Oh What A Fee%$#!....

Franco Cozzo · 15-07-2021, 12:13 AM

I guess it's like any other high voltage electrical system - there's going to be risk management involved in that you need to follow a checklist to keep yourself alive.

The high voltage side of the electrical system has contactors right? I imagine the first step is you make sure they are disabled before you think about touching anything orange.

Warrenk · 15-07-2021, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I guess it's like any other high voltage electrical system - there's going to be risk management involved in that you need to follow a checklist to keep yourself alive.

I was an electrician working in a power station trained to work on equipment with voltages from 24vdc to 275.000vac. Once you get over 48vdc there was no such thing as risk management working on these voltages. Everything was isolated and checked to ensure it was isolated. When these checks were carried out you had to have a safety person kitted up with one those hooks that was talked about in a previous post, just in case the tester got caught up. We also had to do a Job Safety Analyses to identify any hazard (electrical or mechanical) and the action required to overcome them. I can see electric cars getting some of the rules we had to work to. This includes anyone who works on or assists with electrical work having resus training every 6 mths, trained in isolations, hazard identification etc Something to look forward to when these type of vehicles start becoming a bit more mainstream.

shedcoupe · 15-07-2021, 01:33 AM

From the WA Electrical (Licensing) Regulations 1991-

regulation 4A (1A) - 'However electrical work does not include work on components
of the propulsion system of a motor vehicle, as defined in the
Road Traffic (Administration) Act 2008 section 4, that is
propelled wholly or partly by electricity.'

Also, apart from the risk of shock or electrocution from batteries and generators, there is also the risk of burns from fault current producing an arc blast which can also be lethal.

Test for zero volts before you touch and all that, but be aware that batteries that are charged are by definition not isolated, and cannot be considered isolated until they are discharged - insulating the terminals is not isolation.

zilo · 15-07-2021, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrenk

You can't see or smell electrical voltage, and dc does more damage than ac. .

Does more damage to what?

Franco Cozzo · 15-07-2021, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrenk

I was an electrician working in a power station trained to work on equipment with voltages from 24vdc to 275.000vac. Once you get over 48vdc there was no such thing as risk management working on these voltages. Everything was isolated and checked to ensure it was isolated. When these checks were carried out you had to have a safety person kitted up with one those hooks that was talked about in a previous post, just in case the tester got caught up. We also had to do a Job Safety Analyses to identify any hazard (electrical or mechanical) and the action required to overcome them. I can see electric cars getting some of the rules we had to work to. This includes anyone who works on or assists with electrical work having resus training every 6 mths, trained in isolations, hazard identification etc Something to look forward to when these type of vehicles start becoming a bit more mainstream.

Those are all risk management processes but I understand what you mean

Falcon SXR8 · 15-07-2021, 08:46 AM

Sounds like the end of the backyard hot rodder. "Hey shazza can you come man the hook incase i get electramacuted"

rare ss · 15-07-2021, 09:11 AM

ICE have their own dangers also, Ultra high pressure fuel in some modern diesels can cause you a world of hurt.. EV's are one thing, we have a fleet of Hydrogen vehicles coming, there's even less training available!

**mad2** · 15-07-2021, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zilo

Does more damage to what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_injury

https://www.electronicsforu.com/tech...body-dangerous

Warrenk · 15-07-2021, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zilo

Does more damage to what?

Although all electric current can be lethal DC can have the worst outcome. DC will make you muscles contract. A person stuck on dc is unlikely to be able to let go. AC because of the alternating nature goes through a zero point 50 times a second. This has given people a chance of letting go. Either way it is a good idea to steer clear of any voltage above 50vdc and 110vac.

shedcoupe · 15-07-2021, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrenk

Although all electric current can be lethal DC can have the worst outcome. DC will make you muscles contract. A person stuck on dc is unlikely to be able to let go. AC because of the alternating nature goes through a zero point 50 times a second. This has given people a chance of letting go. Either way it is a good idea to steer clear of any voltage above 50vdc and 110vac.

110 volts AC is more than enough to kill by shock. Anything over 30 volts is problematic.
Given that bodily resistance (hand to hand or hand to foot) is generally in the range of 750 to 1000 ohms and that lethal current through the heart is around 30 mA AC or 300 mA DC, you can use Ohm's law to run the numbers and that will tell you what voltages are potentially lethal.
Current = voltage divided by resistance. I = V/R

And shock is the least of your worries if you're engulfed in an arc blast fireball because you've shorted out a traction or UPS battery set.
And you're possibly being drenched in boiling acid.
While being wrapped in a conductive blanket of ionized air giving you a bonus shock.
Ain't electrickery fun ?

Warrenk · 15-07-2021, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shedcoupe

110 volts AC is more than enough to kill by shock. Anything over 30 volts is problematic.
Given that bodily resistance (hand to hand or hand to foot) is generally in the range of 750 to 1000 ohms and that lethal current through the heart is around 30 mA AC or 300 mA DC, you can use Ohm's law to run the numbers and that will tell you what voltages are potentially lethal.
Current = voltage divided by resistance. I = V/R

And shock is the least of your worries if you're engulfed in an arc blast fireball because you've shorted out a traction or UPS battery set.
And you're possibly being drenched in boiling acid.
While being wrapped in a conductive blanket of ionized air giving you a bonus shock.
Ain't electrickery fun ?

You are right, 110vac can kill(so can the voltage from an electric welder tip), but under the guidelines, below 110vac and 50vdc you don't need to be a licensed electrician to work on these voltages. I don't think there would be much (or any) equipment that uses those voltages anyhow that DIYer would work on.
.

shedcoupe · 15-07-2021, 03:33 PM

Yeah but which guidelines ?
Australia isn't really a country - it's just states stuck together with bluetac, and the licensing requirements for electrical work vary from one jurisdiction to another based on voltage or power (VA).
In WA for example you don't need a license to work on low voltage appliances that have a connection cord and plug (at 240 V and 415 V) and don't need to be licensed to tag them.
High voltage circuit breakers can be manually racked in and out by anyone with a pulse and at least one hand.

zilo · 16-07-2021, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrenk

Although all electric current can be lethal DC can have the worst outcome. DC will make you muscles contract. A person stuck on dc is unlikely to be able to let go. AC because of the alternating nature goes through a zero point 50 times a second. This has given people a chance of letting go. Either way it is a good idea to steer clear of any voltage above 50vdc and 110vac.

nahhh...its the other way around mate.

You can't let go of a 50hz voltage then wait for the zero signal crossing....bit like sticking your finger in and out real quick into a radiator fan on an idling car.

It is AC that is worse...at the same voltage/current.

shedcoupe · 16-07-2021, 11:01 PM

There's various figures about shock bandied about (such as the worst possible frequency for shocks is 50 Hz) but the bottom line is that shocks are bad whether they are tingles, zaps or boots (some electrical trade terms there ;-).
So avoid them.
Lock out and tag isolation points, test before you touch, prove the test instruments before and after testing the target point, discharge and earth where applicable.
It's not rocket science.