The 6-Speed Showdown - Manual vs ZF Auto

[Night Runner]

:

OK, it's not really showdown, but, I wanted to know what your thoughts are. We've seen and posted in the Auto vs Manual threads but as it stands with today's top and new range gear boxes, which do you feel is better/faster in a stock car? The ZF 6-Speed Automatics or the 6-Speed Manuals?

One thing I noticed was people saying the ZF is faster down the 1/4 mile? By how much in stock form? Real figures, not "My mates did 12.6 the other day". Too many factors come into play when taking "average Joes" times for fact. Basically any reviews on both cars performed by the same crowd? Factory times stated anywhere?

I have always thought Autos were faster but not in stock form, under 11's possibly, in different cars and set ups things can go either way. They are consistent, absolutely. But I still say a good driver with a stick could beat the ZF in stock form (and possibly modified). Not every round but still set a faster time. With good powershifting and getting more power to the rear wheels without converter loss has to make up for the shift time of the auto, surely?


Thoughts, opinions and 0.02c please.

[atec77]

Originally Posted by [ NZTS50 ]

:

OK, it's not really showdown, but, I wanted to know what your thoughts are. We've seen and posted in the Auto vs Manual threads but as it stands with today's top and new range gear boxes, which do you feel is better? The ZF 6-Speed Automatics or the 6-Speed Manuals?

One thing I noticed was people saying the ZF is faster down the 1/4 mile? By how much in stock form? Real figures, not "My mates did 12.6 the other day". Too many factors come into play when taking "average Joes" times for fact. Basically any reviews on both cars performed by the same crowd? Factory times stated anywhere?

I have always thought Autos were faster but I'm not sure anymore. They are consistent, absolutely. But I still say a good driver with a stick could beat the ZF in stock form (and possibly modified). Not every round but still set a faster time. With good powershifting and getting more power to the rear wheels without converter loss has to make up for the shift time of the auto, surely?


Thoughts, opinions 0.02cs please.

Personally I dont see the reason for anything with more than 5 speeds , if the motor needs such help then I wont be driving it
V8 or turbo 6 , choose your weapon/

[XR8-260]

I haven't had the opportunity to drive either one but if you want my opinon the ZF auto is a far better gearbox than the manual. The ZF has been praised by everyone and is used on some of the most expensive cars around. On the other hand manual falcons have never really had much praise in comparison. Just my opinion .

The auto would be faster than the manual if in the hands of an average driver.

[Ford_Boy]

The zf is obviously the more advanced transmission. It was designed by germans and I have never seen a bad article on the zf. The manual is clunky and has to be nurtured at times. 9/10 times woild see the auto win down the quarter mile but I still believe with the right driver who knows how to shift and knows when the engine is at peak power then they will get out infront of the auto. Around the track I am pretty confindent that the manual will be the track star. I believe the auto is the better of the 2 but I still chose the manual because I prefer shifting gears myself. I would trade in 0.5 off my time because you enjoy the driving ten times more.

[Steffo]

I've driven the F6 with ZF auto... and wow. Seamless, fast shifts, always at the right time etc etc. I wouldn't touch the manual... though the only T56 equipped cars I've ever came into contact with have been Holdens...

[SpoolMan]

ZF auto by 2 country miles, the 6 speed manual don’t come close, if you are willing to drive the absolute backside of the car and have a very good clutch this may help....
There is only 1 manual F6 to have run a 11 sec pass and maybe 1 or 2 XR6T's this only took place in the last 6 months.

Try a ZF it can be driven like a manual, it has engine braking, holds the gears while corning around a tight mountains etc, its a cleaver box it learns your driving style.
This ZF auto is so good I don’t know why anyone would bother pushing in a clutch all day, unless you are driving a truck.

[SavageF6]

Auto will most certainly be quicker for the average mortal; even a simple stomp 'n steer will net you a decent ET. Manual can be tricky to get a consistently good launch by comparison.

As for actually driving the manual though, I LOVE my factory twin plate clutch (unique on the FPV tho). I do however, absolutely loathe shifting gears when using factory gearbox oil. One simply MUST use Castrol Transmaz Z - its a whole different box when using decent oil.

If I had my time again, would I still go the manual? Not if I had to 'sit' in traffic all the way to work, stuff that. What I do like about the manual, is the 'driving aspect'. The "I'm going for a drive" part of my day. Changing gears under max boost, and slamming that accelerator back down to have the tail wag is a joy.

One should not buy a manual to be the quickest guy down the 1/4, because against the ZF, chances are you wont be. But you will enjoy prowling the streets.....

[JBomb3000]

Originally Posted by atec77

Personally I dont see the reason for anything with more than 5 speeds , if the motor needs such help then I wont be driving it
V8 or turbo 6 , choose your weapon/

Clearly you have never driven a XR6T with a 6 speed auto then.

[jabba]

ZF is mile faster then any manual box... Even a tricked up 4sp auto will be quicker then a manual in a straight line..... But the auto's fall over when corners come into the equation... Corners + Manual Box and the auto's are beat....

[GXL078]

The manual is just out of date.

[sbutler]

Originally Posted by jabba

ZF is mile faster then any manual box... Even a tricked up 4sp auto will be quicker then a manual in a straight line..... But the auto's fall over when corners come into the equation... Corners + Manual Box and the auto's are beat....

I'll second that..

[mcnews]

Agreed, serious track work the manual is needed but for everything else the auto takes the cake. I have the ZF but I would really like one of each :->

[neil101]

Autos are dearer to repair though when the **** hits the fan, 9/10 you'll just need a clutch replaced with a 6speed, I have driven both and i still think the auto hesitates a bit a times for me can't beat a manual always have the gear u want but thats my opinion.
my 2cents

Neil

[SlikedTurb]

i agree, the ZF is a better box than the Manual. however, having said that, i wouldn't swap my 6-Speed Man for the Auto. if i did, i might as well amputate my left leg!!!

Car's are too "easy" to drive nowadays as it is, without it changing gears for you aswell.

Very Boring IMO.

Each to their own though, i guess.

[Pedro]

I set out to buy a manual F6. I first tested a manual and found it clunky but reasoned that it would ease up after it had some kms under its belt. I also found the pedal positioning made it difficult to heel & toe. I then tested a ZF model and it changed my perception of automatic boxes forever. I bought the ZF model.

I have driven an F6 with ZF on track days and found it handles the situation well. There is no torque lock-up changing down when approaching a corner and as I'm a left foot braker it certainly uncomplicates the foot work.

[Brent]

I haven't driven a 6 speed manual before, so can't comment on that, but I am definitely happy with the ZF auto in my GT. I'll probably end up keeping my GT for some years, so driveline longevity was a key consideration. Allegedly the ZF is a very strong unit, so that should bode well for its service life. Also, I get none of the diff and driveline shunt that everyone talks about, the auto just soaks it up, so additional points there too.

Yep, I concede that there's nothing quite like changing your own gears, so that's a point to the manual. However, the manual shift mode in the ZF is fantastic, and even in auto mode it holds the gears beautifully through corners, even if you accelerate then ease off. Great control.

I'm not an overly aggressive driver, so I really appreciate the auto when just commuting around. Truth be known, when I'm really punting it, I probably swap gears much better using the ZF manual mode than if I was actually changing gears in a manual. We all suffer from delusions of grandeur at times, and in reality, if I tried to heel/toe a manual into a hairpin at 10/10ths I'd probably end up putting the car through somebody's front fence. A racing driver I ain't.

So, the ZF auto for me, for its flexibility under different driving situations, if nothing else.

Brent.

[GXL078]

Sounds like you are trying to justify buying manual GT?

[charles_wif_xf]

Driven both ZF and Ford's version of the T56 and for the sheer fun of it, I'd pick the manual any day (BTW, it shifts sooo much better than the one in the Commonwhore).

[jcxr]

My son drove the tow car [ BF XR6T ] at the drag nationals, best was 14.1 vs a manual BF typhoon whos best was 14.6. ZF by 3 country miles.

[Night Runner]

Thanks guys. Lots of talk about faster but has anyone got real times from the pros. I'm still sure a BA 5-Speed would beat down on a BA Auto, I'd place money on that. People keep saying faster but I keep hearing consistent? 9-10 the ZF may win, what I'm saying is because real cars have error aka clutch consistency is not something you get every run. I'm sure that if it came down to the absolute fastest 1/4 mile time, the Manual would win.

Seems as though manual drivers are a dieing breed. :(

Auto driving (notice two hand) -------------> :eclipsee_
Manual driving ----------------------------->


Even the smile version looks more fun. :Reverend:

[MITCHAY]

Haven't driven either but if it don't have a clutch pedal then I'm not interested. It takes all the purpose out of a drivers car IMO.

I drive my manual in bumper to bumper traffic everyday too so that is no problem for me.

Faster 1/4 mile?, well I didn't know every road has a timing tower on it :

One of the many reasons I didn't buy a XR6T. The majority are autos on the second hand market and sorry I might aswell sit in the passenger seat with an auto.

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Haven't driven either but if it don't have a clutch pedal then I'm not interested. It takes all the purpose out of a drivers car IMO.

I drive my manual in bumper to bumper traffic everyday too so that is no problem for me.

Faster 1/4 mile?, well I didn't know every road has a timing tower on it :

One of the many reasons I didn't buy a XR6T. The majority are autos on the second hand market and sorry I might aswell sit in the passenger seat with an auto.

I like how your head works Mitch. : An automatic can not be labeled "A drivers car".

[Grunter]

Originally Posted by jabba

ZF is mile faster then any manual box... Even a tricked up 4sp auto will be quicker then a manual in a straight line..... But the auto's fall over when corners come into the equation... Corners + Manual Box and the auto's are beat....

I'll third (?) it.

I'm a manual lover through and through, but driving the TT with the ZF I'm amazed how great it is. It always seems to be in the right gear.
It's impressed me that much that given the choice on a new car, I'd pick it over a manual and I never thought I'd say that.

(declaimer: that's on the assumption that I still have my manual TS50) ;)

[mcnews]

The manual mode in the ZF is a bit slow for my liking. I find it better to leave it in performance mode as it knows what I want all the time, holds gears waiting for me to get back into it in long turns etc. etc. If I get aggressive it will change down and give some engine braking.

[needaXYGT]

ZF auto. all i hear are great things about it!

[Brent]

Originally Posted by [ NZTS50 ]

I like how your head works Mitch. : An automatic can not be labeled "A drivers car".

Hmmmm, well, yes & no. Not sure if its quite that clear-cut. So, you wouldn't rate an Aston Martin which has semi auto 'paddle' gearbox as a driver's car, or a Ferrari that has the same? What about the BMW M3 with the SMG gearbox, or the V10 M5 version?

If we want to be harsh, then it could be argued that a 4 door sedan of the Falcon's dimensions could never be called a true driver's car, no matter what the transmission....... :

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by Brent

Hmmmm, well, yes & no. Not sure if its quite that clear-cut. So, you wouldn't rate an Aston Martin which has semi auto 'paddle' gearbox as a driver's car, or a Ferrari that has the same? What about the BMW M3 with the SMG gearbox, or the V10 M5 version?

If we want to be harsh, then it could be argued that a 4 door sedan of the Falcon's dimensions could never be called a true driver's car, no matter what the transmission....... :

Nope, I wouldn't lable the Aston Martin as a drivers car. Big ups and rants about it being a sloppy paddle flinging mess. They have manual versions too for those who want to be in full control. The Aston is a luxury cruiser with good get up but far from a drivers car.

The Ferrari, yes, that is a drivers car but more so in manual equipped cars. The rest of the cars you listed can all be opted with manuals, real drivers drive cars not steer them, but, those sequential cars like Ferrari's are at another level, even a few steps better than the beloved ZF.

Yupe, definitely, the Falcons aren't a "true" drivers car if we're getting anal but not many can be called true drivers cars. F1 Mclaren, Cobras, some Corvettes, Vipers to a degree. Falcons are family performance sedans. Utes on the other hand are just plain wild!


:

[SavageF6]

Originally Posted by jcxr

My son drove the tow car [ BF XR6T ] at the drag nationals, best was 14.1 vs a manual BF typhoon whos best was 14.6. ZF by 3 country miles.

14.6 in a manual BF phoon? Should have been sitting in the stands rather than driving then. Even BA manual phoons have pulled low 13s stock. One fella even went a 12.9 in one back in the day.

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by Spruce

14.6 in a manual BF phoon? Should have been sitting in the stands rather than driving then. Even BA manual phoons have pulled low 13s stock. One fella even went a 12.9 in one back in the day.

I saw somewhere that the Typhoon does 13.56? Factory standard but I could see what trans.
So, that is merely a rumor as I don't have the link or source.

If anyone knows Ronnie Sox aka "Mr 4-Speed" guys like that can do unbelievable things with cars. Give him the keys (though he's RIP) and he would nail the ZF. Powershifting is not just powershifting, he made an art out of matching the car, engine, speed and rpms.....lovely to watch.

I love manuals. : :sm_drool:

[freaky]

Originally Posted by [ NZTS50 ]

The rest of the cars you listed can all be opted with manuals, real drivers drive cars not steer them, but, those sequential cars like Ferrari's are at another level, even a few steps better than the beloved ZF.

F1 cars must not be real driviers cars as they press a button with their thumb to change gears..

Gee and only afew years ago the upshifts were fully automatic before they were banned and went back to manual sequential mode..