ADVICE PLEASE: Mustang GT - Deposit refund?

[PG2]

Originally Posted by Walt Kowalski

Could a mod please link up how I financially contribute to the Forum again please?

Thanks again.

As requested...

https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=52951

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by Walt Kowalski

Could a mod please link up how I financially contribute to the Forum again please?

See here:

https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...96&postcount=1

[GO FURTHER]

Walt, it's good to see that you have finally resolved this and had a positive outcome. Congratulations!

I just want to also mention, that I admire the way you remained calm throughout this entire thread, did not "bite" as many would, and responded politely to some heavy critic levelled at you.

You, sir, are a true gentleman.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Walt Kowalski

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevsta007 View Post
Agree
On my last service at a VIC dealership the showroom floor was full of 2018 mustangs, there looked to be an example in every colour and configuration.
It was like its turned into a Mustang dealership that sold a few other Fords..

They're not around in Camry numbers, but certainly readily available

Did you miss the bit where the deposit was debited 13 months before release?

No, just pointing out its not too far different from putting a deposit down on a Camry.
You were fortunate to look at other dealers and purchase two cars they had in stock then negotiate a better price - I assume you didn't put a deposit down on them.

Had they not been so popular the original dealer would have had you over a Barrel.

You got as good result getting your deposit back

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. But I do have training and experience in contract law.

You have (had) a contract. It may not be written, but a verbal agreement also makes a contract.

To have a contract you must have:
* Legal capacity (I assume you are not bankrupt and mentally capable - tick)
* Consideration (you have paid $1000 - tick)
* An offer (I assume that you offered to pay the deposit for something - tick)
* An acceptance (I assume the salesman accepted your offer - tick)

The difficult part here is that none of this contract was written down, especially, in this case the conditions surrounding the Consideration (deposit). It will become a case of he said / she said.

You really need to be sure of what both parties said during the telephone conversation to understand the conditions of the contract.

If you wish to pursue this from a legal perspective, then I suggest you seek legal advice, as they will know best how to deal with this particular case.

Having said that, aside from the legal side of things, from a moral perspective, I think you should be able to get your deposit back. The tell-tale for me is that you have not signed any paperwork aside from the agreement to pay the deposit and were never provided with the actual cost of the item (which would be reasonable to expect when laying down a deposit for an item where the price was unknown at the time of agreement to the deposit).

Further, I'm not sure that chasing this through the credit card company is the right avenue either. That process relates to unauthorised payments. In this case, you authorised the payment (deposit), it's just that the final agreement did not eventuate. Maybe I'm too honest, but I think you'd be having your credit card provider chase something for under false pretenses.

Hope that helps.

So what’s to stop a dealer from taking many $1000 deposits for a new vehicle with a long waiting list and no set price yet - just like when the new Mustang was released a couple years ago with no fixed price but people placing orders and deposits anyway.

Then when they show up, claim that each one is worth $100,000 and keep everyone’s $1000 deposits?

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by GO FURTHER

Walt, it's good to see that you have finally resolved this and had a positive outcome. Congratulations!

I just want to also mention, that I admire the way you remained calm throughout this entire thread, did not "bite" as many would, and responded politely to some heavy critic levelled at you.

You, sir, are a true gentleman.

Awww. Shucks. Thank you for your kind words. Much appreciated. Seriously.

I’ve been called a lot worse on the internet and I do understand the concept of pyscological projection.

More good news. The Business Manager just rang me for my CC details. He put it through but it’s not in my account yet. Will update tomorrow.

And I can personally vouch for the 18 GT’s. The fastback is WAAAAY better than our 17 GT Fastback and the GT convertible is bliss with that exhaust.

None of the three Mustangs have had ANY issues so far.

14,000 Kim’s on 17 GT
2000+ Kim’s on 18 Fastback GT
900 Kim’s on 18 Convertible GT

I highly recommend Rowan at Sunshine Ford, Gold Coast. He was BRILLIANT selling me 2 Mustangs. Would deal again 100%.

Unlike the bloke who’s first name starts with C at another dealer and thinks he is clever but only thinks it. Sometimes he tries to be too clever and that doesn’t work with someone like me. He just doesn’t respect the customer. The letter R is also in his name.

A bit of background. I grew up in my Dad’s motorcycle sales shop in the 1950’s. Dad went on to work for the biggest Chrysler dealer outside the USA. Frank Illich the DP used to trust Dad with all his cars including his personal imports and they remained very good friends until Dad’s passing 5 years ago.

I still remember getting driven to school at Bankstown in 1970 in:
White Dodge Charger R/T 426 HEMI (My favourite)
Mach 1 Mustang - 351?
Maserati Ghibli -my first experience in a quad cam V8. It was gorgeous.
Camaro RS
Camaro SS

Pretty cool cars in 1970!

Frank had some REALLY COOL cars and it’s probably why I’m addicted to cars although Mum says my first word was “cut tom line” and my second word was “autin Healey”. I was 2 or 3.

Dad went to work for Peter Warren and was a bit of a legend until they retired him at 67. Dad was regularly visited at his home by Warren family for many years after.

Last time I was at Warrens 2015 they still had a picture up of my brother and my bro in law (married to my sister) because they were part of the highest achieving Ford Sales team EVER in Australia. Any Warren people here? It’s the photo with Balbi as a kid.

I’ve never sold cars but I’ve been surrounded by it my whole life.

That’s why I immediately smelt a rat the first time I new that I spoke to the replacement salesguy who has the letter “d” in his first name.

Some people should not be selling NEW cars.

[NTF6]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. But I do have training and experience in contract law.

You have (had) a contract. It may not be written, but a verbal agreement also makes a contract.

To have a contract you must have:
* Legal capacity (I assume you are not bankrupt and mentally capable - tick)
* Consideration (you have paid $1000 - tick)
* An offer (I assume that you offered to pay the deposit for something - tick)
* An acceptance (I assume the salesman accepted your offer - tick)

The difficult part here is that none of this contract was written down, especially, in this case the conditions surrounding the Consideration (deposit). It will become a case of he said / she said.

You really need to be sure of what both parties said during the telephone conversation to understand the conditions of the contract.

If you wish to pursue this from a legal perspective, then I suggest you seek legal advice, as they will know best how to deal with this particular case.

Having said that, aside from the legal side of things, from a moral perspective, I think you should be able to get your deposit back. The tell-tale for me is that you have not signed any paperwork aside from the agreement to pay the deposit and were never provided with the actual cost of the item (which would be reasonable to expect when laying down a deposit for an item where the price was unknown at the time of agreement to the deposit).

Further, I'm not sure that chasing this through the credit card company is the right avenue either. That process relates to unauthorised payments. In this case, you authorised the payment (deposit), it's just that the final agreement did not eventuate. Maybe I'm too honest, but I think you'd be having your credit card provider chase something for under false pretenses.

Hope that helps.

Not entirely correct, you can get a chargeback for services legitimately authorised but not received.

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. But I do have training and experience in contract law.

You have (had) a contract. It may not be written, but a verbal agreement also makes a contract.

.

Regarding verbal v written I thought that too. However a contract of sale in the automotive industry may have to be in writing as it is when buying a property. In that industry nothing is binding until the contract is signed by both parties regardless of what was promised verbally . Anyway good outcome for the OP. However I can see harm being done to car dealerships if this practice of refunding deposits was more widespread . Take for example 1,000 people placing $1,000 deposits for their new Mustang only to tell the dealer once the car had arrived they were no longer interested in following through with the purchase and wanted their deposit back.

I think there needs to be clear and strict rules in place regarding withdrawal and forfeiture and the consequences of backing out of a deal from both sides. Part of that would be some clarity on price and who bears the exchange rate risk.

[Walt Kowalski]

Nanny state. No thanks.

[FTE217]

ONYA Walt, I expected you to get your deposit back.

[Big_Daz]

Glad you got it resolved Walk, I had hoped that eventually cooler heads would prevail and you would get your $$$$ back...

I just noticed you had an MY18 Coupe AND Convertible... You poor bugger... (gross sarcasm obviously).. enjoy them both...

[Eaturbo]

Well that's good you got it sorted. Having sold new HSV's for 3 years I know the game. Keeping someone's deposit only ensured one thing, that the customer would never buy off you again. It was never worth keeping the deposit even if the customer was in the wrong.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Again, I'm no expert in this area, so please take all of what I say as an opinion and don't rely on it as sound advice. If using this information, verify it with an independent reliable source......

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

So what’s to stop a dealer from taking many $1000 deposits for a new vehicle with a long waiting list and no set price yet - just like when the new Mustang was released a couple years ago with no fixed price but people placing orders and deposits anyway.

Then when they show up, claim that each one is worth $100,000 and keep everyone’s $1000 deposits?

Nothing (from a contract law perspective) assuming that it is not against the law and that both parties have agreed to that in the contract.

From a moral perspective, I think any reasonable person would consider that to be unfair.

Originally Posted by NTF6

Not entirely correct, you can get a chargeback for services legitimately authorised but not received.

In this case though, it depends as to what the 'services' actually are. The 'contract' may not have been for the sale of a car. It may just be for the first right to be offered a price for a new car. In which case the 'service' may have actually been delivered. It all depends on what was agreed to in the telephone conversation (that we don't have access to.)

Originally Posted by GT0132

Regarding verbal v written I thought that too. However a contract of sale in the automotive industry may have to be in writing as it is when buying a property. In that industry nothing is binding until the contract is signed by both parties regardless of what was promised verbally . Anyway good outcome for the OP. However I can see harm being done to car dealerships if this practice of refunding deposits was more widespread . Take for example 1,000 people placing $1,000 deposits for their new Mustang only to tell the dealer once the car had arrived they were no longer interested in following through with the purchase and wanted their deposit back.

I think there needs to be clear and strict rules in place regarding withdrawal and forfeiture and the consequences of backing out of a deal from both sides. Part of that would be some clarity on price and who bears the exchange rate risk.

Again, I'm no expert on this at all, so you may well be right. But in my previous post, the verbal contract that has been established was not for the sale of a car, it was akin to the rights to be able to buy a car. I'd imagine that a verbal contract would not suffice for the sale of a car scenario.

[BENT_8]

Im still wondering why if you've known the Dealer Principal for 15 years, you didnt just contact him when you had a better offer from another dealer and ask this friend to see if he could match it.


I can understand that a salesman you'd never dealt with prior would be difficult but surely the bloke paying the bills would make a better attempt to look after someone they'd known for 15 years and with your families history in the industry.
And surely if you've known the Dealer Principal for 15 years you'd be a little more loyal and give him the benefit of refusal before you bought 2 cars elsewhere.

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Im still wondering why if you've known the Dealer Principal for 15 years, you didnt just contact him when you had a better offer from another dealer and ask this friend to see if he could match it.

I can understand that a salesman you'd never dealt with prior would be difficult but surely the bloke paying the bills would make a better attempt to look after someone they'd known for 15 years and with your families history in the industry.

And surely if you've known the Dealer Principal for 15 years you'd be a little more loyal and give him the benefit of refusal before you bought 2 cars elsewhere.

It was a matter of principle to me. Replacement Salesman was a clown and I would never buy from him with his attitude.

Much better to go through the whole procedure, save thousands without any hassles, make the buying experience pleasurable and reward Rowan at Sunshine Ford. Did I mention Rowan at Sunshne Ford is AWESOME. VERY NICE YOUNG FELLA. VERY PROFESSIONAL. A CREDIT TO FORD.



I’m also a paid “Secret Shopper” - doesnt pay much but ai enjoy it. I do mostly Hardware shops and Police Stations but the best gig I’ve ever had was to shop Sydney Porsche for a Cayenne eHybrid. The customer was Porsche AG, Germany and the Au office had no idea about it. Organised by Australian SS company.

I found their problem and reported back to the SS Agency. They then report to their client Porsche AG. Best bit was when the Dealer stuffed up on the first test (booked over the phone but previous customer didn’t bring it back on time and I’d travelled two hours) the dealer gave me a BRAND NEW eHybrid (00056 Klms) a few days later for the long weekend and it stretched out to five days.

It wasn’t my job to report back about the car. Just the Dealership.

TIP. NEVER EVER buy a plug in Hybrid. Such a pain to recharge and it’s very slow unless you have the special plug.

[Junkyard-Dog]

Glad that you reached a positive resolution. I take my first post in this thread back as I admit I didn't fully understand the situation.

[Walt Kowalski]

Well it hasn’t gone in my account overnight. Mmmm.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Walt Kowalski

It was a matter of principle to me. Replacement Salesman was a clown and I would never buy from him with his attitude.

Much better to go through the whole procedure, save thousands without any hassles, make the buying experience pleasurable and reward Rowan at Sunshine Ford. Did I mention Rowan at Sunshne Ford is AWESOME. VERY NICE YOUNG FELLA. VERY PROFESSIONAL. A CREDIT TO FORD.

Look, dont get me wrong, im glad that you've been able to get the situation resolved but it still makes little sense to me for you to go about it the way you have if what you tell us about your connections is true.

Firstly, having worked in the industry for many years i find it hard to comprehend that someone with your connections would make first contact with a nobody in the dealership, i've seen countless deals handled by DP's and GM personally if involving friends, a salesman may write the deal up but if he wanted to keep his position he'd be well aware that this was an important customer and to tread carefully.

Secondly, if for some extraordinary reason i had to deal with this nobody 12 months out from delivery, had been kept in the dark over that period, presented a deal which hardly represented my long term association with the Dealership and intended to buy 2 of said vehicle from a dealership where i'd known the DP for 15yrs, i wouldn't be looking elsewhere and potentially burning my deposit and my connections, i'd be contacting my DP friend, explaining the situation and my intentions and when taking delivery of my 2 cars making sure the salesman was there to see the his potential commission disappear down the road infront of him, that would have had far greater impact on the salesman.


I've worked for some of the biggest Toyota dealerships in SA but when i went looking for a ute for my business, being a Blue Oval man i sought a price on a Courier first.
I then walked into one of my old employers yards to seek a deal on a Hilux where i spoke with the new car sales Manager i knew personally and we went across the road for lunch.
He told me straight out that he could match the price i had on the Courier but couldnt get much under it, however, knowing i was a Ford man the salesman said let me make a phone call for you and see if i can sharpen the deal on the Courier, so he rang the F&I guy at the Ford dealer whom he knew well and shaved another $800 from the deal and got me a steel tray instead of aluminium at a price too good to go past.
We finished the lunch, he covered the bill and i went back to the Ford dealer and signed the contract, bypassing the Ford salesman altogether, all he did was write the contract as requested.
Old mate from Toyota then rang me a month later to make sure i had taken delivery and to see how the new business venture was going.

[Vesper Martini]

I'm in sales, but not cars. If one of our 15 year customers went elsewhere over one off dealings with one of our new staff members. I would be pretty disappointing in their lack of loyalty.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

I'm in sales, but not cars. If one of our 15 year customers went elsewhere over one off dealings with one of our new staff members. I would be pretty disappointing in their lack of loyalty.

Exactly.

Another thing which sticks out to me as not sounding right is that Walt tells us he's a FLEET buyer, now, anyone who's worked in the industry would know that Fleet buyers are generally very loyal to a particular fleet salesman or manager and vice versa and quite often these customers follow the fleet salesman from dealer to dealer, they are generally considered their customers and on their books and looked after far greater than a retail customer, with this in mind, im wondering why on earth Walt found himself dealing with a run of the mill new car salesman and not utilising his relationship with the fleet salesman.
If its because this is the salesman thats moved on i find it hard to believe that the new car sales manager wouldn't have had previous dealings with Walt, known the situation and made every effort to maintain the dealerships relationship with a customer who makes fleet purchases.
Retail customers come and go but fleet purchasers are generally well known within a dealership and treated accordingly right down to the PD detailer.

Im sorry but i fail to see how someone with Walts apparent connection with a particular dealership couldnt possibly have made an equal if not better deal than what he ended up with at a dealership he was less aquainted with.

[ozrunner]

So you ended up going to Sunshine Ford. Who was the other dealer ?

[zipping]

Governments write laws around the sale of vehicles to protect the public. Most states if not all have legislation for the sale of new cars and there is no contract until you have agreed to terms i.e. the price and signed the contract. It has to be in writing usually with a cooling off period of 1-3 days some states have no cooling-off.

Note this is statutory law, laws passed in state parliament.

If this was another product under the common law you would have entered into a binding contract and would lose the deposit. Theoretically the seller could force you to buy/pay the purchase price but this never happens as they usually can sell to someone else.

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Im still wondering why if you've known the Dealer Principal for 15 years, you didnt just contact him when you had a better offer from another dealer and ask this friend to see if he could match it.

I can understand that a salesman you'd never dealt with prior would be difficult but surely the bloke paying the bills would make a better attempt to look after someone they'd known for 15 years and with your families history in the industry.

And surely if you've known the Dealer Principal for 15 years you'd be a little more loyal and give him the benefit of refusal before you bought 2 cars elsewhere.

Did you miss the bit where I’ve been around the trade since early 1950’s?

You shouldn’t assume I don’t also know the DP and owners at Sunshine Ford.

It was of course originally set up by Peter Warren and his family a long time family friend before his death. You connect the dots.

You bet know a LOT of people when you a earound a trade for 60 years.

And in later years even more dots connect. A good one was when I had a new co driver in my race car for an Enduro and we got talking about our love of cars and how it started. When I mentioned the Maserati Ghibli he said was it a Yellow one? Yup. Turns out his Dad Rick was a dealer and bought the Maserati directly from Frank in early 1970’s, the co driver - now a good mate - runs the biggest car Auction places in Sydney for Sutton’s. Small world.

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Look, dont get me wrong, im glad that you've been able to get the situation resolved but it still makes little sense to me for you to go about it the way you have...

That’s your problem. I’ve explained it above but I’ll try ONCE MORE. There was no way I was going to give the deal to the replacement clown. He doesn’t respect his customers.

Originally Posted by BENT_8

.. if what you tell us about your connections is true....

WHAT? Every single thing I’ve posted is true. Without an apology you are going on my ignore list. First in the forum in over a decade.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Walt Kowalski

Without an apology you are going on my ignore list.

Oh get outta here, you're not seriously gonna put me on your ignore list are you, the first in 10 years, if thats the case then i will have no choice other than to...















LOL and suggest that i really couldn't care less.

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Exactly.

Another thing which sticks out to me as not sounding right is that Walt tells us he's a FLEET buyer, now, anyone who's worked in the industry would know that Fleet buyers are generally very loyal to a particular fleet salesman or manager and vice versa and quite often these customers follow the fleet salesman from dealer to dealer, they are generally considered their customers and on their books and looked after far greater than a retail customer, with this in mind, im wondering why on earth Walt found himself dealing with a run of the mill new car salesman and not utilising his relationship with the fleet salesman.
If its because this is the salesman thats moved on i find it hard to believe that the new car sales manager wouldn't have had previous dealings with Walt, known the situation and made every effort to maintain the dealerships relationship with a customer who makes fleet purchases.
Retail customers come and go but fleet purchasers are generally well known within a dealership and treated accordingly right down to the PD detailer.

Im sorry but i fail to see how someone with Walts apparent connection with a particular dealership couldnt possibly have made an equal if not better deal than what he ended up with at a dealership he was less aquainted with.

Are you always like this?

The staff changed at first dealer.

You are making all sorts of assumptions THAT ARE WRONG. Including the the last SIX words.

Here are our two GT’s on Delivery day. I’m ust awaiting quotes to come through for Rowan Morse at Sunshine Ford on their replacements shortly. We are buying two more GT’s . This time they are 19’s.

If Rowan Morse at Sunshine Coast is on the money I’ll be buying the two 19’s from him.

Did I mention ROWAN MORSE AT SUNSHINE FORD IS AWESOME. PROFESSIONAL. AFFABLE. AND COURTEOUS. OH. AND RESPECTFUL TOWARDS THE CUSTOMER.

Curious. You did leave the car sales industry right?

[Walt Kowalski]

Attachment didn’t upload. I’ll try again. Love these cars. Love this Forum. Not all the members tho. There are some trolls here - surely no one is that stupid.

[PG2]

Gentlemen

If we going to start having pot shots at each other this thread will not last much longer.


HINT: The ignore feature works best when you don't tell them that you are putting them on said list.

[GT450]

Just ignore him , he likes a wind up.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Walt Kowalski

Are you always like this?

The staff changed at first dealer.

You are making all sorts of assumptions THAT ARE WRONG. Including the the last SIX words.

Like what Walt, pointing at holes in your story that you left open to interpretation, lets not forget, it is you who came enquiring about peoples thoughts on the matter, if all you wanted was affirmation you should have just asked for it and left it at that.

All i've done is suggested that my experiences in the motor industry leave me questioning some of your tactics, you've simply added more and more info as you've gone along to counter that and whilst im not suggesting you're lying, i personally believe you've perhaps gone about it in a questionable fashion for someone so well connected.
You obviously put the $ above personal relationships.

If this hurts your feelings then im sorry but thats how i see it, do with it as you please.