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Old 10-07-2018, 06:10 PM   #31
Sar4890
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

Extractors a big exhaust and a mild cam usually makes an old crossy sound v8ish at idle its when you step on the loud pedal that illusion disapears and they make a distinct sound that 250's make. Imho i would either embrace the sound of the 6 or go for a V8.
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Old 11-07-2018, 04:51 AM   #32
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

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Extractors a big exhaust and a mild cam usually makes an old crossy sound v8ish at idle its when you step on the loud pedal that illusion disapears and they make a distinct sound that 250's make. Imho i would either embrace the sound of the 6 or go for a V8.
Absolutely agree with you. Everything plays a part in the sound quality, yet, the fact of the matter is, an I6 with a 120* cross plane crank will give an exhaust pulse based on that 120* crank journal separation.

In all honesty I think is is a beautiful sound note.

A 90* cross plane crank in a 90* V8 will give a pulse note based on that.

These differences ensure neither will ever sound the exact same as the other.

The 250 Chevelle sounded sweet and to be honest I have a soft spot for GTOs, Chevelles, Cutlass/442s and GSs. My first car was a '65 389 GTO convertible 4 speed car and my Mom drove a '66 Chevelle then a '72. BTW, she is the one who introduced me to drag racing at a very young age with her '50 Chevy fastback.

Yet, you caught that the earlier vid did not record high revs. Had that happened, what you described would happen. The sweet symphony of an I6.

To try to approximate the rumble sound at song, looking at the very good picture of the Chevelles headers paints the picture. Based on the firing order of that engine, a 120* separation, ensuring a sweet symphony will come from that engine at full song.

Take 1 pipe from the rear 3 and move to the front 3 then match with taking 1 pipe from the front 3 and move to the rear 3 and rumble separated by a 240* offset from each of the 2 exhaust banks will occur at song.

Not exactly like a V8, but a rumble.
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Old 11-07-2018, 09:23 AM   #33
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

Thanks solarite guy. Where the engines that you are talking about pre cross flow?
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Old 11-07-2018, 11:21 AM   #34
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

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Thanks solarite guy. Where the engines that you are talking about pre cross flow?
Looking for some vids for you.
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Old 11-07-2018, 12:14 PM   #35
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

I will say that no 6 cyl sounds like a V8
You could get an old log ford 6 to sound not all that bad with dual exhaust.

Best sounding V8 has to be a 351 Cleveland but I have herd some that were rubbish esp single exhaust not to mention some VB to VL V8 Commodores with single system they had a blub blub noise just a shocking sound, one would drive past my place and I would cringe.

In 1980 I had a single exhaust on my HG 253 stock to were the 2 pipes come into one and then 2 1/4 into a Hills sport straight through muffler sounded good, but I don't know what they were doing with the commodores system, it must of been in the point that the 2 pipes joined was in the wrong spot.

Like Solarite says, you could mess with the extractor pipes order and length to get some type of sound, but could loose power in doing such.

There is a VX Commodore V8 Single exhaust getting about around here and it does not sound like a V8 at all, he flogs the crap out of it all the time and it's bloody quick.
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Old 11-07-2018, 01:34 PM   #36
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

Back in the 70's when I was an apprentice mechanic, one of the other apprentices had a 250 XY with a lumpy cam, solid lifters and a twin system back from the extractors and it sounded like Allan Moffets' GTHO
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:12 AM   #37
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

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Thanks solarite guy. Where the engines that you are talking about pre cross flow?
Alright, it is not just a matter of a couple vids. Need to start out with some pictures and commentary. It will be a couple posts or three or four or maybe more.

You may already be aware, but up front, something I want to make sure is clear for everyone is a separation of terms.

Cross flow vs port configuration/layout.

What makes the cross flow make the sweet 6 cylinder song vs a rumble is not the fact air/fuel come in one side and the exhaust goes out the other. Rather how the exhaust ports are configured, i.e. their physical layout, regardless of what side of the head they are on, relative to the intake ports is more significant.

I'll lay out a few Ford 250 cylinder heads and an Austin Healey 3000 head right here.

In this pic, we see 2 versions of a 250 cylinder head. The bottom has the old log style intake and #3 and #4 exhaust ports siamesed. The top is a modern alloy replacement where the #3 and #4 exhaust ports are no longer siamesed.

In this 1st pic, pay careful attention to the bolt pattern around the siamesed #3 and #4 port opening.



Now I have a series of 3 pics showing a 250 2V head going through a conversion to separate the center siamesed center exhaust ports.

Again, I ask you the pay attention to the bolt pattern.







Now an Austin Healey 3000 head port layout.



Give you a chance to study that a little then I'll add some thoughts, and you or anyone else can ask questions along the way.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:16 AM   #38
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

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Alright, it is not just a matter of a couple vids. Need to start out with some pictures and commentary. It will be a couple posts or three or four or maybe more.

You may already be aware, but up front, something I want to make sure is clear for everyone is a separation of terms.

Cross flow vs port configuration/layout.

What makes the cross flow make the sweet 6 cylinder song vs a rumble is not the fact air/fuel come in one side and the exhaust goes out the other. Rather how the exhaust ports are configured, i.e. their physical layout, regardless of what side of the head they are on, relative to the intake ports is more significant.

I'll lay out a few Ford 250 cylinder heads and an Austin Healey 3000 head right here.

In this pic, we see 2 versions of a 250 cylinder head. The bottom has the old log style intake and #3 and #4 exhaust ports siamesed. The top is a modern alloy replacement where the #3 and #4 exhaust ports are no longer siamesed.

In this 1st pic, pay careful attention to the bolt pattern around the siamesed #3 and #4 port opening.

image

Now I have a series of 3 pics showing a 250 2V head going through a conversion to separate the center siamesed center exhaust ports.

Again, I ask you the pay attention to the bolt pattern.

image

image

image

Now an Austin Healey 3000 head port layout.

image

Give you a chance to study that a little then I'll add some thoughts, and you or anyone else can ask questions along the way.
Yes there is a cast iron peace that you can just shove in that stupid dual port that I have seen and sure it is what would change the note.
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Old 12-07-2018, 09:36 PM   #39
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

So, for what you are pursuing, if we look at this older iron head in the picture:



Then the newer iron 2V head getting prepped for the port divider:



It is obvious that both heads from the factory have a compromised center port as they came from the factory. However, for what you are after, maybe not so much of a compromise.

Now take a look at these extractors:



and these shorties:



We can see, though there are individual pipes for each cylinder, the center siamesed port allows both #3 and #4 cylinders to hit those same 2 center extractor pipes. This includes both the exhaust gasses and the sound wave pulses.

From a sound perspective, this situation is almost the same as a set of extractors with the 2 center pipes crossed and the 2 center ports in the head being separated, either by the divider in an old head or a newer head like the alloy shown at in the top pic. The difference being, crossing the center pipes with a head where the #3 and #4 are separated will be better for performance. The sound might meet your rumble requirements a little better too.

Does that make sense?

Back later with more.
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Old 14-07-2018, 08:11 AM   #40
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

Then, using a head like this with NO divider between the 2 center exhaust ports a fella ran a good test for our purposes.



In the fist test, the extractors funnel all 6 pipes into a single exhaust.

The second test the collector was cut off to create dual exhaust in 2 pairs of 3 into 1 systems.

In watching this keep in mind what we discussed earlier about those 2 center ports even with individual extractor pipes for the 2 center ports.



The first test produces a note like the typical sporty 6 cylinder exhaust note.

The second test, without change of cam, produces more of a rumble. Really wish he had rev'd it more.

So even though the exhaust dumps into the 2 center pipes through a siamesed center port arrangement through a gasket like this:



We can get variations in the exhaust note depending on how the exhaust is configured during the 2 tests.

Why?

In the first test, the sound waves of each pulse get re-combined into their natural 120* separation as they are funneled into the single pipe.

This is a similar sound effect as an X-pipe installed in an exhaust system for a 90* V8 with a 90* cross plane crank. The typical V8 which normally gives a rumble. Put the X-pipe in and the result is a symphony based on 90* pulse separation between left and right bank, fooling the ear into hearing what sounds like a 180* separation between each left bank pulse and each right bank pulse. A sound much like the earlier V8 example with 180* headers.

Think about that and any questions.

More later
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Old 14-07-2018, 07:14 PM   #41
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

In some ways, I prefer the sound of a straight-six... probably because of E-series XR6s.

V8s are nice but there is nothing like chopping them at the lights with a 6 cylinder car.
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Old 15-07-2018, 11:44 AM   #42
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

Now we have seen the pre crossflow head with the open, siamesed center exhaust ports in combinations of 6 into 1 and 2 pairs of 3 into 1 produce 2 different sounds even though the camshaft remained the same.

Now let's look at the Austin-Healey 3000 straight 6 with individual exhaust ports down the length of the head. Reference picture:



Each of these are in performance states of tune with the 2nd one having noticeably more cam than the first.





The factory exhaust manifolds are like 2 shorty 3 into 1 extractors but cast iron.

Nice cars.

The only way to turn that exhaust note into a rumble would be to cross a couple pipes between the front 3 and back 3, such as #3 and #4.

Questions?
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Old 15-07-2018, 12:52 PM   #43
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

Can we make my 4G54i Magna sound like a V8?
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Old 15-07-2018, 03:36 PM   #44
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

You would have your work cut out. Here is the head.



There maybe some chance for some exhaust side grouping, but I would have to scratch my head a little about this with the I4 block and flat crank. I almost think some odd angle cross plane crank would be needed.
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Old 15-07-2018, 05:53 PM   #45
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

Looking back i kinda cringe when i think of it ie why would ya but when a much younger fella i had a nice XW ute and paid good coin to have an exhaust bloke do his thing he actually did a good job and it sounded sweet much to my XW V8 Fairmont owning mates annoyance
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Old 15-07-2018, 08:23 PM   #46
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

I think the best chance a 6 has at sounding like a v8 is to replicate the old holden 253 thong clapper sound. No burble or rumble, just slap slap slap sound

Seriously 6s have their own sound to be admired.. turbo.. nothing wrong with that spooling sound before armageddon hits.

Many a V8 owner wince and buckle at the knees at that sound of a turbo 6 spooling.

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Old 15-07-2018, 10:38 PM   #47
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

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Can we make my 4G54i Magna sound like a V8?

Don’t mess with perfection!

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Old 15-07-2018, 10:46 PM   #48
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

If you shoe horn another one in there we could go straight eight at least.
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Old 15-07-2018, 11:03 PM   #49
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

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If you shoe horn another one in there we could go straight eight at least.
You won’t believe this but there was an old rwd Sigma wagon that they fitted an LS into. What a waste of a sigma. The old 4G54 and all its “character” isn’t a bad old bucket of bolts, I’d rather that I think.


As for sixes, you know, I like the six sound,remember the old XU1? They weren’t a bad sounding bit of kit, don’t try and pretend it’s a V8. I’m relating it to the scene in Spinal tap where he has the cucumber down his pants. Moral of the story is don’t pretend to have something you don’t ..... you’ll end up embarrassed
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Old 16-07-2018, 02:05 PM   #50
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

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You wonít believe this but there was an old rwd Sigma wagon that they fitted an LS into. What a waste of a sigma. The old 4G54 and all its ďcharacterĒ isnít a bad old bucket of bolts, Iíd rather that I think.


As for sixes, you know, I like the six sound,remember the old XU1? They werenít a bad sounding bit of kit, donít try and pretend itís a V8. Iím relating it to the scene in Spinal tap where he has the cucumber down his pants. Moral of the story is donít pretend to have something you donít ..... youíll end up embarrassed
The old XU-1 sound at idle was ok, but a mate had a G pack Torana with a worked 202 with dual exhaust that was chevy style pointing down both sides to the road, she was quite but would rump thump noise at idle, when he dropped off another mate at his mum and dads place they hated that noise and could not understand why it did that, so he would have to drop him off at the start of the driveway 100m away.

If I hear a nice big cam late at night I love it, not to mention some ***** flat to the boards going past my place, it's music to my ears if it sounds good.

A mate who lived on the Bundaberg highway who would jump out of bed to watch some ***** fly by flat to the boards, you could hear them coming up the hill, sounded great !

Even them old 2stroke diesels could sound good, when I lived on top of a hill I would listen out for it coming around about 10.30 at night but I could not hear the cars from home much at all.
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Old 16-07-2018, 09:11 PM   #51
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

The old 2 stroke diesels certainly had an awesome sound. The old Driptroit Diesels were in everything!
Yeah, I always picture the XU1 with a normal single exhaust , those twin down pipe exhausts...
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Old 17-07-2018, 11:06 AM   #52
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The old 2 stroke diesels certainly had an awesome sound. The old Driptroit Diesels were in everything!
Yeah, I always picture the XU1 with a normal single exhaust , those twin down pipe exhausts...
The GTR had a single pipe coming out at the rear muffler but the stock Holden XU-1 rear muffler just has 2 little pipes coming straight out at the rear of the muffler.

I don't like the droop down tips look.

What I am on about is called a Chev type pipe style that comes down at the rear of the back wheel to the ground and you can only see a inch or 2 of pipe, they can not be destroyed like some can hanging out the rear.
1960 and 70's Chevy had such.
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Old 19-07-2018, 11:09 PM   #53
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

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The GTR had a single pipe coming out at the rear muffler but the stock Holden XU-1 rear muffler just has 2 little pipes coming straight out at the rear of the muffler.

I don't like the droop down tips look.

What I am on about is called a Chev type pipe style that comes down at the rear of the back wheel to the ground and you can only see a inch or 2 of pipe, they can not be destroyed like some can hanging out the rear.
1960 and 70's Chevy had such.
Your talking about 'Chevy drop pipes' if my memory serves. They were big in the Panel Van scene and Bedford vans.

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Old 20-07-2018, 09:33 AM   #54
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

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Your talking about 'Chevy drop pipes' if my memory serves. They were big in the Panel Van scene and Bedford vans.
Lake pipes were on Vans running down the side to the front of the back wheel.

1960's Chevy had a pipe coming over the axel like normal but it just comes out near the rear wheel poking out to the side of the car down onto the road and you only see a inch or 2 of the pipe.
1967 Impala has such.
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Old 20-07-2018, 10:16 AM   #55
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

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Can we make my 4G54i Magna sound like a V8?
Better chance of making pork taste like chicken than a 4G54 bitsamissing motor sound like a V8
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Old 20-07-2018, 11:00 AM   #56
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

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The old 2 stroke diesels certainly had an awesome sound. The old Driptroit Diesels were in everything!
There's nothing like the sound of a 6V53 screamer. Well apart from a VT903 Hummin' Cummins




Personally I like the stock sound of a crossflow 6.
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Old 26-10-2018, 02:47 AM   #57
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Default Re: Making a 6 cyl cross flow sound like a v8

Many moons back I had an EH panel van with equivalent of a 186 XU1 donk in it (same cam, Triple CDIs etc)
With single system, it naturally sounded similar to an XU1.
Me being ya typical 18yr old lout, I wanted a V8 note.
I split the extractors into 2x3 (similar to what Solitaire posted above) then 2 hotdogs each side, XW/XY GT over axle pipes, and XY tips...
The resulting note fooled a lot of people too!
The performance suffered markedly though!
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