Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities - Page 2

Sox · 04-08-2018, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

I personally don't use a WDH, but have large air bags fitted on the rear leaves of my wagon (as part of a self levelling rear suspension set-up), which performs the same task (& my insurance co is happy with that)

Further to the above correction by prydey, air bags do not perform the same task as a WDH.
Air bags only reduce rear sag on the tow vehicle.
A WDH redistributes some of the weight from the rear axle to the front, therefore reducing rear sag, and restoring some steering weight and more balanced braking.

prydey · 04-08-2018, 11:51 PM

another critical aspect is tyre pressures. for max loads, increase rear pressures only. Ford do actually recommend a slight increase in front pressure, but it is the difference in pressure between front and rear that is critical. should be about 7psi minimum. increasing front pressures when weight is transferred rearward will increase oversteer (steering more sensitive).

on a dual axle trailer, the front axle should have a slightly lower tyre pressure than the rear axle also, by a few psi.

prydey · 04-08-2018, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

but have large air bags fitted on the rear leaves of my wagon

i'm sure you know what you are doing, but I was under the impression airbags with leaf springs was a bit of a recipe for bending the chassis. reason being the airbag is adding an additional load point where the chassis wasn't designed to have one. it no doubt depends on the load behind the axle and the amount of air being used in the airbag.

**Gothefalcon** · 05-08-2018, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

a WDH has no effect on tow ball mass. it simply redistributes some of the weight from being supported by the rear axle, on to the front axle (and a small amount back to the trailer axle). static tow ball mass remains.

it is also critical to only restore a MAX of 100% of the lost front axle load, with many manufacturers now recommending 50%.

Sorry.. whilst I agree on the point regarding axle weights... I beg to differ regarding the towball weight. Basically, you can't have one being affected without the other. ie; as the weight of the nose of the trailer is placed on the towball, the back of the car starts to drop (same as if you put weight in the boot)... for the car... this means that it's normal weight balance is shifted and as the nose of the car starts to lift, more of the cars normal weight is bourne by the rear axle (plus the additional weight in /on , the back).
For the trailer, as the nose of the trailer drops... more of it's weight balance is shifted forward, affecting it's front axle load (dual axle trailer) and the additional weight now distributed onto the towball.

The WDH helps to restore the distribution of the normal weight of the car, forward... and the trailer, rearward... more evenly spreading these weights across all axles (also allowing the front brakes & steering of the car to work more effectively) whilst also shifting some additional weight off the towball (which came from the weight balance shift of the trailer tipping further forward, pushing down on the towball as the back of the car dropped).

D

arronm · 05-08-2018, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

a WDH has no effect on tow ball mass. it simply redistributes some of the weight from being supported by the rear axle, on to the front axle (and a small amount back to the trailer axle). static tow ball mass remains.

it is also critical to only restore a MAX of 100% of the lost front axle load, with many manufacturers now recommending 50%.

Not exactly true. I use these scales to set up. (not mine just an image).

https://youtu.be/zubTFR0I_mk

prydey · 05-08-2018, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

Sorry.. whilst I agree on the point regarding axle weights... I beg to differ regarding the towball weight. Basically, you can't have one being affected without the other. ie; as the weight of the nose of the trailer is placed on the towball, the back of the car starts to drop (same as if you put weight in the boot)... for the car... this means that it's normal weight balance is shifted and as the nose of the car starts to lift, more of the cars normal weight is bourne by the rear axle (plus the additional weight in /on , the back).
For the trailer, as the nose of the trailer drops... more of it's weight balance is shifted forward, affecting it's front axle load (dual axle trailer) and the additional weight now distributed onto the towball.

The WDH helps to restore the distribution of the normal weight of the car, forward... and the trailer, rearward... more evenly spreading these weights across all axles (also allowing the front brakes & steering of the car to work more effectively) whilst also shifting some additional weight off the towball (which came from the weight balance shift of the trailer tipping further forward, pushing down on the towball as the back of the car dropped).

D

tow ball mass is tow ball mass. it doesn't change.

a wdh works by making the hitching point less flexible, and thus transferring weight back to the front of the car, and a small amount to the trailer axle. the towball mass is still there and still the same. the rear of the car lifts because the join is being made more solid.

a wdh is not a fix for an overloaded rear axle.

prydey · 05-08-2018, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arronm

I use these scales to set up. (not mine just an image).

I have these
https://intertradeholdings.com.au/to...ht-scales.html

dunga · 05-08-2018, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

I have these
https://intertradeholdings.com.au/to...ht-scales.html

Just a note when using those type of tow ball scales is you have to measure the weight at approx. the same height as the tow hitch is when towing. Especially if you have a duel axle caravan with independent trailing arm suspension as the higher or lower you take the measurement from normal travel height the results will chance significantly .

prydey · 05-08-2018, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunga

Just a note when using those type of tow ball scales is you have to measure the weight at approx. the same height as the tow hitch is when towing. Especially if you have a duel axle caravan with independent trailing arm suspension as the higher or lower you take the measurement from normal travel height the results will chance significantly .

They are just handy to have at home to give you a ballpark figure. For an accurate reading you should really visit a weighbridge.

Itsme · 05-08-2018, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

Sorry.. whilst I agree on the point regarding axle weights... I beg to differ regarding the towball weight. Basically, you can't have one being affected without the other. ie; as the weight of the nose of the trailer is placed on the towball, the back of the car starts to drop (same as if you put weight in the boot)... for the car... this means that it's normal weight balance is shifted and as the nose of the car starts to lift, more of the cars normal weight is bourne by the rear axle (plus the additional weight in /on , the back).
For the trailer, as the nose of the trailer drops... more of it's weight balance is shifted forward, affecting it's front axle load (dual axle trailer) and the additional weight now distributed onto the towball.

The WDH helps to restore the distribution of the normal weight of the car, forward... and the trailer, rearward... more evenly spreading these weights across all axles (also allowing the front brakes & steering of the car to work more effectively) whilst also shifting some additional weight off the towball (which came from the weight balance shift of the trailer tipping further forward, pushing down on the towball as the back of the car dropped).

D

Tow ball weight from van/trailer will never alter with a WDH fitted.

Mercury Bullet · 05-08-2018, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

It can be done without too much problem, but it needs to be setup well.

I generally tow with an RTV'd AU ute.
It has the 2300kg hitch, with a 4500kg tongue, and a WDH.
I also use an AU XR8 wagon now and again also with the 2300 hitch and WDH.

The ute is more stable than the wagon, but the wagon is still fine.

image
image

Cool trailer.

And wash ya hands!

Ben73 · 05-08-2018, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Curious how you found the sequence of pictures ?
Was it from another post/forum, were you involved in the towing or was it a passing vehicle which you later came upon the wreckage.

I don't know the story.

Facebook.
They were posted in that sequence and it was said that they binned it while towing.
I know that area and the direction they are driving does head towards bushland with high speed limits. Other direction is the city will slow limits. Probably a good chance it is exactly what it looks like.

xeeclipse · 05-08-2018, 07:20 PM

I've towed the gross trailer mass (2300kg) on MANY occasions and the falcon (leaf spring preferably) does it with ease.

Two pointers....

- Get rid of the the factory trans cooler and fit a remote.
- Winch the towed vehicle as far forward as possible (load up the tow ball), helps prevent jack knifing at the speed limit :/

Warrenk · 05-08-2018, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xeeclipse

I've towed the gross trailer mass (2300kg) on MANY occasions and the falcon (leaf spring preferably) does it with ease.

Two pointers....

- Get rid of the the factory trans cooler and fit a remote.
- Winch the towed vehicle as far forward as possible (load up the tow ball), helps prevent jack knifing at the speed limit :/

You mean something like this

OzJavelin · 06-08-2018, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrenk

You mean something like this

Based on scenes like this, "the authority" will likely make it illegal for a private vehicle to tow anything soon ......

Trevor 57 · 06-08-2018, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstanovic

Not quite.

The 4.5t GVM (gross vehicle mass) only refers to the max weight of a vehicle you can drive on a standard drivers licence. Over 4.5t requires a truck licence.

so, every old fart towing a caravan needs a truck licence - I think NOT. Prydey is absolutely correct, check your facts

**PG2** · 06-08-2018, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstanovic

Not quite.

The 4.5t GVM (gross vehicle mass) only refers to the max weight of a vehicle you can drive on a standard drivers licence. Over 4.5t requires a truck licence.

GCM (gross combination mass) refers to the max weight of car and trailer. Ranger has a 6t GCM so if the Ranger weighs 3t (including fuel, passengers, Bull bar etc) it can legally tow 3t.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Trev

so, every old fart towing a caravan needs a truck licence - I think NOT. Prydey is absolutely correct, check your facts

?????

Am I missing something here Big Trev? From what I'm reading jstanovic has said that you can't drive a vehicle with a GVM over 4.5t with a standard licence. As far as I know that is true.

Trevor 57 · 06-08-2018, 09:35 AM

The 4.5t only applies to the towing vehicle, not the vehicle and what is being towed.

From Vicroads website:

Quote:

Car licence category

You can drive a vehicle that does not exceed 4.5 tonnes Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) and can seat up to 12 adults including the driver. This does not include motor cycles and motor trikes. You may tow a single trailer up to 9 tonne GVM or to the manufacturer's specifications (whichever is less).

Quote:

Heavy vehicle licence category

To drive a truck or bus with a Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) greater than 4.5 tonnes or a bus which seats more than 12 adults you will need a Victorian heavy vehicle licence.

Heavy vehicle licences are issued in five different categories:

Light Rigid (LR)
Medium Rigid (MR)
Heavy Rigid (HR)
Heavy Combination (HC)
Multi Combination (MC)

There is a big difference between GVM and GCM

**PG2** · 06-08-2018, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Trev

The 4.5t only applies to the towing vehicle, not the vehicle and what is being towed.

From Vicroads website:

There is a big difference between GVM and GCM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstanovic

Not quite.

The 4.5t GVM (gross vehicle mass) only refers to the max weight of a vehicle you can drive on a standard drivers licence. Over 4.5t requires a truck licence.

GCM (gross combination mass) refers to the max weight of car and trailer. Ranger has a 6t GCM so if the Ranger weighs 3t (including fuel, passengers, Bull bar etc) it can legally tow 3t.

Based on the bit I emboldened in jstanovic's post I think he is referring to the car and not the trailer.

Trevor 57 · 06-08-2018, 10:32 AM

I understood him to be talking about the tow vehicle only, hence my reply

years ago I worked as a heavy vehicle driver trainer (for 13 years) - so this stuff is kind of 2nd nature to me, I sometimes need to update myself, but this is basic stuff

Bushbasher · 06-08-2018, 12:13 PM

Just yesterday I was given a S1 AU Fairmont Ghia and towed it home on my mates home made car trailer with the wifes BFIII wagon and it was good as gold. Mind you, the wagon is set up for heavy towing with custom reset rear springs with an extra leaf added, stiffer front Pedders springs, big trans cooler and of co**** the 2300kg tow bar. Once the 'mont was positioned correctly and tied down it towed perfectly on the 60km trip home.

zlcrazy · 06-08-2018, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

Just yesterday I was given a S1 AU Fairmont Ghia and towed it home on my mates home made car trailer with the wifes BFIII wagon and it was good as gold. Mind you, the wagon is set up for heavy towing with custom reset rear springs with an extra leaf added, stiffer front Pedders springs, big trans cooler and of co**** the 2300kg tow bar. Once the 'mont was positioned correctly and tied down it towed perfectly on the 60km trip home.

Pics or it didn't happen lol ;-)

Tonz · 06-08-2018, 02:44 PM

not much chance of photos Id guess, yesterdays weather was not one for stopping and taking happy snaps.

Bushbasher · 06-08-2018, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zlcrazy

Pics or it didn't happen lol ;-)

Here's the wagon, but the trailer went home and the Fairmont is your average light blue AU sedan, Im sure you can work out the rest, lol.

Crazy Dazz · 06-08-2018, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by falconhell74

Not sure in other states but in WA its illegal to tow a falcon/ commodore model

Quote:

Originally Posted by falconhell74

Au falcon to present due to vehicle weight as I tried to hire one about a month back

You tried to hire an AU?
Well if you get desperate, give me a call.

Crazy Dazz · 06-08-2018, 11:27 PM

The answer to the OP's main question is relatively straightforward:
The mass of the trailer and cargo must be within the specified tow capacity of the towing vehicle and hitch. Where there is no specification, it must not exceed 1.5 times the empty mass of the tow vehicle. (WA law)

So, for example, your average BA Falcon, fitted with HD hitch, weighs around 1,500kg, but can tow 2,300kg. Which yes, is approximately 1.5 x

So providing your trailer weighs less than around 750kg, a BA could tow a BA.

How much does a trailer weigh?
Interestingly I would have estimated around 6~800kg, but I don't actually know.

In WA, where you are more likely to come unstuck is that most hire trailers will be limited to 2,000kg GTM. (Over that requires remote-controlled brakes.)

As to whether its safe, that depends on the condition of the tow vehicle, the condition of the trailer, weather and road conditions, the care and skill of the driver, and the balance of the load.
I've done it, with great care and moderate speed, on good roads and freeway.

One way to look at it, is that any problem is going to be multiplied threefold or worse. I wouldn't do it in the wet, or on gravel. I keep the speed down, leave massive gaps for braking, and take corners at a snails pace.

arronm · 07-08-2018, 12:13 AM

A BA BF FG weighs around 1900kg and a car trailer 750kg. SO......

jstanovic · 07-08-2018, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Trev

so, every old fart towing a caravan needs a truck licence - I think NOT. Prydey is absolutely correct, check your facts

Hi Trev, I think you misunderstood my post as I am saying the same as Prydey. My first paragraph clearly says about single vehicle weights (GVM), the second talks about towing (GCM).

**GasoLane** · 07-08-2018, 10:59 AM

If the thread title was Falcons towing Falcons - Illegalities, I could post this......................but I wont

Sox · 14-08-2018, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xeeclipse

I've towed the gross trailer mass (2300kg) on MANY occasions and the falcon (leaf spring preferably) does it with ease.

Two pointers....

- Get rid of the the factory trans cooler and fit a remote.
- Winch the towed vehicle as far forward as possible (load up the tow ball), helps prevent jack knifing at the speed limit :/

That's not right.
It's just as easy to overload the ball as it is to not have enough on the ball.

Aim for between 5% and 10% of the loaded trailer weight on the ball.
For example, if the loaded trailer is 2000kg, somewhere between 100kg and 200kg will tow well.