vFacts October 2019

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

So you're saying with certainty that Holden could have continued making cars in Elizabeth if only it and Toyota remained?

Odd that a company touting a plan to keep local manufacturing through to 2020
suddenly decides that it's no longer valid and has to pull out......

I bet you, some genius inside GM probably an accountant, has suggested that Holden just import "commodore" from Germany and get 75% of the sales it was getting with VFII and just 86 all local manufacturing....QED
What could possibly go wrong as Holden stood to save a ton of money developing cars no one else wanted...

The plan was done so quickly that Holden couldn't even order a RHD Camaro to supplement Commodore.

Holden and Toyota probably felt unappreciated and unwelcome here after the rhetoric coming
from the ultra right, sure it might have been a doubtful proposition but a lot of the money that
was expended here mostly stayed here...

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Odd that a company touting a plan to keep local manufacturing through to 2020
suddenly decides that it's no longer valid and has to pull out......

I bet you, some genius inside GM probably an accountant, has suggested that Holden just import "commodore" from Germany and get 75% of the sales it was getting with VFII and just 86 all local manufacturing....QED
What could possibly go wrong as Holden stood to save a ton of money developing cars no one else wanted...

The plan was done so quickly that Holden couldn't even order a RHD Camaro to supplement Commodore.

Holden and Toyota probably felt unappreciated and unwelcome here after the rhetoric coming
from the ultra right, sure it might have been a doubtful proposition but a lot of the money that
was expended here mostly stayed here...

Yeah, that's not what I asked, are you saying they could have continued making cars in Elizabeth if it was only them and Toyota left?
Yes, or no.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Yeah, that's not what I asked, are you saying they could have continued making cars in Elizabeth if it was only them and Toyota left?
Yes, or no.

Yes because Ford had already off-shored most of its supplier base,
that was the only way it could afford to keep going and i know that
Holden was progressively doing that too.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yes because Ford had already off-shored most of its supplier base,
that was the only way it could afford to keep going and i know that
Holden was progressively doing that too.

Well in a former life I was a truck driver and a bit of our work was transporting parts from suppliers to Holdens and the talk on the back of Ford's announcement was that there was serious concern that the supply chain could survive on only two customers.

[CyberWasp]

I don't get the 3 manufacturer down to 2 excuse.
The last few years Ford was not setting the world on fire with volume.
If Holden or Toyota gained 1 export opportunity, Example Commodore Ute.
They would have gained the numbers that Ford was selling, and retaining the same Australian made volume or more.

It has been said a million times. Holden took money to stay open, then did the runner.

[Sprint XR8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yes because Ford had already off-shored most of its supplier base,
that was the only way it could afford to keep going and i know that
Holden was progressively doing that too.

No they didn't. Most of Ford's suppliers were local right up to the end.

Ford has confirmed its FG X Falcon is the most home-grown vehicle built in the country.

The swansong model before Ford's planned manufacturing exit in October 2016 sources 70 per cent of its parts from Australian suppliers – more than any other vehicle built in Australia. As a comparison, about 50 per cent of the current Holden Commodore is made up of locally-sourced content, while the Toyota Camry uses about 65 per cent of Australian components.

Speaking with Drive at the launch of the updated Falcon and Territory this week, Ford vehicle line director David Wilkinson said contracts were renewed among most Australian suppliers following a tender process.

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/...0141126-11uu9b

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Sprint XR8

No they didn't. Most of Ford's suppliers were local right up to the end.


https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/...0141126-11uu9b

The key is in how that percentage is calculated, Ford does a lot of it's own
percentage with the basic car construction and the balance is split with
import and local suppliers.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

I don't get the 3 manufacturer down to 2 excuse.
The last few years Ford was not setting the world on fire with volume.
If Holden or Toyota gained 1 export opportunity, Example Commodore Ute.
They would have gained the numbers that Ford was selling, and retaining the same Australian made volume or more.

It has been said a million times. Holden took money to stay open, then did the runner.

Only 4 years earlier it went from 4 manufacturers down to 3 and there was no mention of it at all, the concern came when Ford announced its intentions as the writing was on the wall.
You don't think its a coincidence that it all escalated after Fords announcement.

We know about the reduced tariffs, the Button plan, the dwindling sales, no doubt they all played a part, it was always going to happen but none of them wanted to be first to blink and then Ford did.
To suggest, as jPD did earlier, that GM killed off its local manufacturing operations by choice is rubbish, they simply followed suit as did Toyota.

You want to talk about whats been said a million times, its been said a million times that NO auto manufacturing industry in the world survives without government subsidies.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I'm talking about suppliers, not percentage of Australian parts.
There's a big difference.

Explain it for us then please, as the article clearly says Australian Suppliers, not parts.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Explain it for us then please, as the article clearly says Australian Suppliers, not parts.

get some glasses

70 per cent of its parts from Australian suppliers

The key is in how that percentage is calculated, Ford does a lot of it's own
percentage with the basic car construction and the balance is split with
import and local suppliers.

It sounds bloody great in the press but the more you think about it,
just how much do outside suppliers in Australia do towards the car if say,
Ford does fifty percent with basic construction.

[Sprint XR8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The key is in how that percentage is calculated, Ford does a lot of it's own
percentage with the basic car construction and the balance is split with
import and local suppliers.

Local content was calculated the same way for all makers.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Sprint XR8

Local content was calculated the same way for all makers.

Correct and what changed with the Commodore?
Engines/ blocks and engine components and glass away from Pilkington.
that's most of your twenty percent difference between it and Falcon.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The key is in how that percentage is calculated, Ford does a lot of it's own
percentage with the basic car construction and the balance is split with
import and local suppliers.

You cant build the product with only the import suppliers now can you and that's the point, whilst there is a reliance on local input of any kind and that local input relies on volume for survival, any reduction, especially considering there we're already falling production numbers spread over 3 manufacturers, would be detrimental to ongoing survival which is why many we're prompted and given incentive to diversify.

There we're less than 10,000 shop floor workers, yet reports of 10's of thousands of job losses suggests the supply chain had more to lose than anyone, those people weren't just standing around.

[Franco Cozzo]

The whole local content thing is a joke, someone buys parts in from China, slaps a sticker on it and resells it to the OE and all of a sudden look there's our 'local content'

Or they give you specifications they know don't exist, so you can't meet them, then its 'oh we tried getting local content but no one could supply so we had to import it from China'.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

You cant build the product with only the import suppliers now can you and that's the point, whilst there is a reliance on local input of any kind and that local input relies on volume for survival, any reduction, especially considering there we're already falling production numbers spread over 3 manufacturers, would be detrimental to ongoing survival which is why many we're prompted and given incentive to diversify.

There we're less than 10,000 shop floor workers, yet reports of 10's of thousands of job losses suggests the supply chain had more to lose than anyone, those people weren't just standing around.

Ford was down to 83 vehicles a day across sedan, Ute and Territory, you do the math on how important that was to Holden and Toyota's decision to leave this country....that's where this debate started.

Do the math. content supplied by Ford both local and import plus local supply of externally sourced local parts..all of that totals 70% local...not just parts from the external suppliers.

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The whole local content thing is a joke, someone buys parts in from China, slaps a sticker on it and resells it to the OE and all of a sudden look there's our 'local content'

Or they give you specifications they know don't exist, so you can't meet them, then its 'oh we tried getting local content but no one could supply so we had to import it from China'.

Bingo! The company I work for advertises itself as Australian this and Aussie that, but 99.9% of our parts (hoses are made here) are made in China and Taiwan (no they’re not the same, hello Xi if you’re reading this!).

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The whole local content thing is a joke, someone buys parts in from China, slaps a sticker on it and resells it to the OE and all of a sudden look there's our 'local content'

Or they give you specifications they know don't exist, so you can't meet them, then its 'oh we tried getting local content but no one could supply so we had to import it from China'.

Agreed, but that's a different subject, the point is, that business still sources those parts and has them on hand for when they're required.
They couldn't just say hang on, we'll order some and let you know when they're in, especially when in the end parts we're on demand.
They may have been just a middle man, but an important middle man none the less.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

Bingo! The company I work for advertises itself as Australian this and Aussie that, but 99.9% of our parts (hoses are made here) are made in China and Taiwan (no they’re not the same, hello Xi if you’re reading this!).

I have no doubt that a mix of possibilities existed, parts made here, parts
sourced from elsewhere to make up assemblies that were indeed made here.
All of those parts also went through local quality checks before going to the
OEM.

There were plenty of suppliers here but by the time FG rolled around, those
numbers were definitely lower for Ford than previous B series.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Agreed, but that's a different subject, the point is, that business still sources those parts and has them on hand for when they're required.
They couldn't just say hang on, we'll order some and let you know when they're in, especially when in the end parts we're on demand.
They may have been just a middle man, but an important middle man none the less.

As you already know everything ran on just in time delivery as Ford and Holden
didn't have much on site warehouse space, so they had to give suppliers defined
numbers to supply at given times to meet their schedules.

Most suppliers had assemblies to supply, not simple parts imported, so even
if made with some imported components, the assembly was Australian content
with Australian value added labor. All of this you already know of course.

There we're less than 10,000 shop floor workers, yet reports of 10's of thousands of job losses suggests the supply chain had more to lose than anyone, those people weren't just standing around.

Again do the math and you'll find out that was sourced from the unions
and
most likely includes a big chunk of community knock on effect if those companies
lost their supply work. We never could pin down exactly how many employees
were in direct suppliers to the motor companies.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Ford was down to 83 vehicles a day across sedan, Ute and Territory, you do the math on how important that was to Holden and Toyota's decision to leave this country....that's where this debate started.

Holden wasn't much better, it was really only the demand for V8's in the end that kept them above that.
150 cars a day wasn't sustainable either.

As I said, there we're many factors responsible for the end of manufacturing and Holden's demise, but none of them we're because GM just decided to 'kill off local manufacturing' which is what you suggested.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

As you already know everything ran on just in time delivery as Ford and Holden
didn't have much on site warehouse space, so they had to give suppliers defined
numbers to supply at given times to meet their schedules.

Most suppliers had assemblies to supply, not simple parts imported, so even
if made with some imported components, the assembly was Australian content
with Australian value added labor. All of this you already know of course.

Yes, I was often bringing dashboard shells from a plastics manufacturer to an assembly facility behind the Elizabeth plant to name just one.
I remember touring the Elizabeth plant in the mid 80's when it was mainly all in house, plastics etc. people would be surprised how much was outsourced towards the end as it was cheaper to have someone else responsible for tooling different aspects than have it all done inhouse.

In the end they we're more like car assemblers than manufacturers, they stamped and welded body panels, painted them and then finished them off with outsourced parts.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Holden wasn't much better, it was really only the demand for V8's in the end that kept them above that.
150 cars a day wasn't sustainable either.

As I said, there we're many factors responsible for the end of manufacturing and Holden's demise, but none of them we're because GM just decided to 'kill off local manufacturing' which is what you suggested.

Keep in mind that the decision came after months of outspoken objection to
supporting car companies in this country and a promise by the then opposition
to cut five hundred million in funding...the whole thing turned toxic as hell.

Again, you do the math. Holden then knew it would never get the financial
support needed for another product cycle, that's why they folded when they did.

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Keep in mind that the decision came after months of outspoken objection to
supporting car companies in this country and a promise by the then opposition
to cut five hundred million in funding...the whole thing turned toxic as hell.

Again, you do the math. Holden then knew it would never get the financial
support needed for another product cycle, that's why they folded when they did.

I have never seen such hostility from a sitting government to a particular industry as that shown by the Coalition towards Holden and Toyota.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Keep in mind that the decision came after months of outspoken objection to
supporting car companies in this country and a promise by the then opposition
to cut five hundred million in funding...the whole thing turned toxic as hell.

Again, you do the math. Holden then knew it would never get the financial
support needed for another product cycle, that's why they folded when they did.

No ones denying that, you said GM decided to 'kill of local manufacturing'.
Whilst they made the final decision, it wasn't because they didn't want to upgrade the facilities or because they decided against building a small car on site, they did both, Ford did neither and bailed.
If anyone decided to 'kill off their local manufacturing' it was Ford because they didn't want to spend the money as they had better plants with bigger volume elsewhere.
You cant blame them for that, it makes complete sense, but don't try to paint them as saints for their part and then suggest GM are sinners when they at least tried to make it work in the last decade.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

No ones denying that, you said GM decided to 'kill of local manufacturing'.
Whilst they made the final decision, it wasn't because they didn't want to upgrade the facilities or because they decided against building a small car on site, they did both, Ford did neither and bailed.
If anyone decided to 'kill off their local manufacturing' it was Ford because they didn't want to spend the money as they had better plants with bigger volume elsewhere.
You cant blame them for that, it makes complete sense, but don't try to paint them as saints for their part and then suggest GM are sinners when they at least tried to make it work in the last decade.

I'm not painting Ford good, Holden Evil, at some point Holden went from having a robust plan to go well into the next decade to pulling up stumps one year after Ford. Clearly something major changed and that was government support, the moment that was withdrawn, the show was over and GM did pull the plug.

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Yes, I was often bringing dashboard shells from a plastics manufacturer to an assembly facility behind the Elizabeth plant to name just one.
I remember touring the Elizabeth plant in the mid 80's when it was mainly all in house, plastics etc. people would be surprised how much was outsourced towards the end as it was cheaper to have someone else responsible for tooling different aspects than have it all done inhouse.

In the end they we're more like car assemblers than manufacturers, they stamped and welded body panels, painted them and then finished them off with outsourced parts.

Off topic, this is becoming an issue with Ford in America lots of sub assembly
work is now being outsourced, aluminum door stampings showing up and the
shape doesn't quite match the side frame openings.

Good talk, I'll let you have the last word.
Nite all.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

I have never seen such hostility from a sitting government to a particular industry as that shown by the Coalition towards Holden and Toyota.

Agreed, Smokin Joe thought he was smart calling Holden's bluff, some would say it backfired, others suggest it was a well executed ploy to tie up loose ends whilst making the tax payer think they we're saving them money.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I'm not painting Ford good, Holden Evil, at some point Holden went from having a robust plan to go well into the next decade to pulling up stumps one year after Ford. Clearly something major changes and that was government support, the moment that was withdrawn, the show was over and GM did pull the plug.





Off topic, this is becoming an issue with Ford in America lots of sub assembly
work is now being outsourced, aluminum door stampings showing up and the
shape doesn't quite match the side frame openings.

Good talk, I'll let you have the last word.
Nite all.

Its not about the last word mate, you have to excuse me as this stuff is dear to my heart, I was born and bred in Elizabeth where the Holden's assembly plant has been to me what the Harbour bridge is to Sydneysiders, a part of life, maybe even something I took for granted. To drive past it multiple times daily and see what has become makes me filthy, I call many ex workers friend and shed tears with them when it all went belly up.

[Franco Cozzo]

In the glory days of manufacturing the company I work for employed 700 people in Victoria across two factories.

Now it employs 36 nationally and about 8 in the production shop

Every time an oldie comes in and remembers us from the glory days - I take them on a guided tour and show them how old everything is and how it lays dormant.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Its not about the last word mate, you have to excuse me as this stuff is dear to my heart, I was born and bred in Elizabeth where the Holden's assembly plant has been to me what the Harbour bridge is to Sydneysiders, a part of life, maybe even something I took for granted. To drive past it multiple times daily and see what has become makes me filthy, I call many ex workers friend and shed tears with them when it all went belly up.

While I can fully understand and sympathise on how this relates to you, do you remember that Holden came within and inch of being dumped into the "bad" assests of GM when they were filing for Chapter 11 in the US. If that had of gone through then it was all gone long before the final decision to close years later.

IIRC, Holden also couldn't get it's local banks to agree to keep it's line of credit open until the government offered a form of guarantee. There was more background to this than we all probably know. Even in Ford's case the FG-X came about through some last minute wheeling and dealing between Ford, the Vic government and the Aust. government otherwise the plug was being pulled even earlier. Ford closed first only because it's parent company got to that decision point earlier than it's competitors. Toyota was mainly exporting it's production so slightly different criteria as it wasn't building a vehicle with no real exports like Ford and Holden. In fact with today's Aust dollar I wonder if that Toyota decision would stand.

One other thing, Holden was receiving approx. double the incentives, grants etc as Ford and Toyota in the same time period with the car company's required to spend a double or triple multiple (I can't remember which) to maintain receiving the various government "industry support". As I said there was far more to the decisions than we will ever know.

[hayseed]

Holden was a "Bees Dick" away from going under in the late 80's Too..

Detroit poured a HEAP of Cash Into It, & all the product sharing with Toyota, they managed to avert Sinking ......