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Old 02-10-2016, 06:44 PM   #91
GOF
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbv View Post
I am most interested in this solution. Can you give the mix of water and caustic drain cleaner? Also what brand drain cleaner - just out of interest? I have a few other questions but they're probably better for a pm. Can't do that yet!

Cheers,
Mark
Just straight caustic soda (a lot cheaper than drain cleaner) will do the trick for carbon and oil deposits, hot water will make it work faster, the stronger the solution the faster it will work too. WARNINING !!! Add the caustic to the water slowly, if you do it too quick it will spit back at you and it causes chemical burns, the same goes with when you put the solution in the DPF. Make sure you have safety glasses on and a source of cold water (garden hose, etc.) on hand to flush off any caustic splashes.
After that it could still be blocked with ash especially if the wrong oil was used, you may still be able to clean it up with CLR or any other calcium removing solution.
Good luck.
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Old 01-11-2016, 05:01 PM   #92
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Wink Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

I own a 2011 Focus Diesel and the issue is how do I find out if it has a DPF. The recommended oils guide sometimes lists oils that are not suitable to use with a DPF, an apparent contradiction if the car has a DPF. I tried the official FordEtis site (UK) which gives heaps of details about my particular car however not if it is fitted with a DPF.
By the way, I just love the meaty torque curve the drivetrain delivers. A pity there are no more new Focus diesels made for Australia.
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Old 01-11-2016, 07:14 PM   #93
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

Mate my mechanic services wife's 09 TDCI focus, and it has DPF. We have to run low ash oil for it , don't ask me the location of the DPF on the motor.
Yes I also love the meaty torque curve of the focus , I actually find the car goes better with 4 people in it.
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Old 03-11-2016, 10:49 AM   #94
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

Thanks for the advice jandj. It's good to know there are other Fordies out there who understand the whole diesel thing especially the low ash oil use in diesels. My advice to everyone with any sort of diesel. Always look for the oil product statement that says 'suitable for use with vehicles fitted with a Diesel Particulate Filter'.
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Old 27-06-2017, 10:13 PM   #95
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

Hi All,

Got a 2013 Mazda 6 diesel wagon, bought it 2nd- hand around 18 months ago from a Mazda dealership. It was 3 years old & had just over 50,000km on the clock, and gave us no real trouble for a while. The the DPF light came on, and all hell broke loose. Took it to our local mechanic, who told us he's need to regen the DPF filter. No worries... gives us a call later in the day saying that the filter is crumbling, & there's no way it can be cleaned without destroying it.
So we took it in to Mazda for a possible warranty claim (hopes weren't high, but you never know). The car has less than 75k on the clock, and after interrogating a couple of Mazda staff (including the service manager of the dealership that sold us the car) they agreed that under 75,000km "sounded a bit low", but that the lifespan of the DPF "depended on a variety of factors".
Mazda got back to us today, wanting $13,500 to repair a car we bought 18 months ago for $23,000. They reckon the injectors were pumping "too much fuel" and that was what caused the DPF to fail. Warranty request rejected. So, they've quoted a new DPF for 6 grand, 4 new injectors at around $1,400 a hit, and 3 sensors with another $800 or so in Labour.
Needless to say, they're getting both barrels (figuratively speaking) at start of business tomorrow. But does this sound familiar to anyone else out there? We had no mention of the DPF when we purchased the car, no instructions or recommendations from the dealership as to special driving requirements to prolong the life of the DPF. The first inkling we had that there was anything wrong was the DPF light telling us "you're screwed." And yes, I know there's a section in the manual that tells you to drive above 40km/h at over 2,200 r.p.m. or whatever it stipulates. This car has been driven a lot locally on short school runs, as well as decent half- hour belts every 2nd day on the Highway, so it's been put through a variety of trip times & conditions, at least one of which should be conducive to initiating a regen.
Given that the Mazda CX-5 diesel (which has the same motor as the Mazda 6) had recalls back in 2013 over oil sump overfilling issues, could this possibly be related? It's just an absolute kick in the teeth, as there's no way in hell we have $13k+ to get it fixed and we desperately need the vehicle. I'm thinking a call to the Dept. of Fair Trading might be the eventual course of action, as it appears we've been sold a lemon.

Personally, while I agree in principle with efforts to cut emissions, a DPF is an absolute POS. It's like telling someone to run faster after you've shoved a wet sock down their throat. As soon as this issue gets resolved, I'm getting a bypass pipe & the ECU remapped (purely for racing purposes, of course).
Thanks for any help, advice or feedback.
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Old 27-06-2017, 10:57 PM   #96
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

What happens is if you do a lot of city driving they just clog up and have to regen all the time, then they flog out and can't be regenerated anymore.

Or its been serviced with the wrong oil, they need low SAPS/low ash oil or it'll kill the DPF as well.

They won't ever cover them under warranty, its like trying to claim warranty on a fuel, air and oil filter.
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Old 27-06-2017, 11:08 PM   #97
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

Mazda reckon the fault was with the injectors (one injector in particular); that they were injecting too much fuel & causing the dpf to clog. The Customer Care guy I spoke to the other week stated that the DPF on my model was more suited to regens in city driving conditions anyway. So, if it's the injectors that are the problem, what's causing them to inject too much fuel? The ECU? Another sensor? Because if that's the case, why wasn't this picked up at previous services? and if the problem is indeed with anything upstream of the injectors, why is it the only sensors they're replacing are 3 temperature sensors? They're not part of the injector or fuel delivery system?
I'm not expecting you to give me an answer, by the way; it's just infuriating that there's an apparent fault with the injectors (at least, that's what Mazda are blaming it on), and there's absolutely no enging warning or alarm given until the DPF packs it in & the repair bill skyrockets.
Incidentally, is testing of injectors something that should be done during routine or scheduled servicing?
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Old 27-06-2017, 11:17 PM   #98
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

No DPF is designed for short trips, short trips or wrong oil is a death sentence for a DPF.

On modern diesels injectors are coded individually to the ECU and they have specific injection quantity values per injector programmed into the ECU.

If one was leaky it would throw a code and run rough.

I'm calling BS on their excuse and its either wrong oil or city driving.

All the ones I saw come through my workshop were those two reasons.
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Old 28-06-2017, 12:39 AM   #99
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

Most DPF systems run another injector in the exhaust stream rear of the turbo to inject fuel into the DPF to create enough heat to actively regenerate. Higher engine loads, higher
Ambient heat and longer trips allow the DPF to passively regenerate but when these conditions can't be replicated a forced burn or active regeneration is necessary.

Diesel engine emission technology is not very well
Conveyed to the general public- we got it on trucks well before it was mainstream on cars in Australia and it's turned the industry on its head. Adblue is a better technology generally for diesels particularly where stop/start, high idle time and low average speed/short trips are concerned. BUT it also has its issues and is bloody expense to fix with regards to its dosing units and the Exhaust Gas Processor (EGP) which is comparatively priced to a DPF- so it's not like you don't have that cost to replace...

My wife's SQ5 will be the first and last diesel car well ever own. We've had not one problem with it but I don't ever want to either- nor whatever replaces it. Petrol all the way...
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Old 28-06-2017, 07:38 AM   #100
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

I have a Territory Diesel - I don't think it has a DPF.

It gets driven on the M4 a lot with a few short trips (home to station) thrown in.

One thing I've noticed, since we've had it (3 years now), if you accelerate hard, say from 80 to 110 on the motorway, it blows a lot of "smoke" out of the exhaust.

Bit embarrassing blowing that in someone's face but the old girl can certainly move along!!

Great car the Territory, we love ours to bits.
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Old 28-06-2017, 08:02 AM   #101
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

Get an ECU tune and get the EGR bypassed/turned off and see how she goes GTP534. I haven't had mine done but it is tempting and those people that have had it done do not regret it one little bit. Personally I think the terri was crying for a more powerful diesel engine and it could handle it. I think they are a great car and love mine, but it could use some more oomph.
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Old 28-06-2017, 09:14 AM   #102
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

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I have a Territory Diesel - I don't think it has a DPF.

It gets driven on the M4 a lot with a few short trips (home to station) thrown in.

One thing I've noticed, since we've had it (3 years now), if you accelerate hard, say from 80 to 110 on the motorway, it blows a lot of "smoke" out of the exhaust.

Bit embarrassing blowing that in someone's face but the old girl can certainly move along!!

Great car the Territory, we love ours to bits.
Yep no DPF. I don't think they would meet current emission standards.
They blow a fair bit off the mark too, my theory is they rev pretty hard for a diesel. Same engine in the Discovery blows a bit and some Mercedes Vans also produce a pretty good smoke screen.
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Old 28-06-2017, 10:13 AM   #103
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

A lot of the earlier dpf filters were placed along the exhaust pipe a long way from the exhaust manifold, which meant gasses cooled somewhat and did not clean burn the dpf filters.

Better design has the dpf filter situated almost as part of the exhaust manifold so that the filter is exposed to the hottest air to help clean out the dpf filter.

I have a Honda Civic 1.6 turbo diesel that has done 85,000 km and no problems, never a dpf regen light despite my wife driving city urban-touch wood.

But I am with Jim, I will not go diesel again, the potential dpf and injector costs are too great a risk.
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Old 28-06-2017, 11:25 AM   #104
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

All this diesel emissions technology is BS.

It can easily be solved with LPG being also injected (cant remember the ratio i think about 20%) which helps diesel burn much much cleaner and leaves basically no emissions at the tailpipe and it also increases torque and power.

And yes Adblue for trucks does work but its only for Euro trucks afaik and its another cost on top of diesel when re filling.
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Old 28-06-2017, 11:57 AM   #105
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

less than 20% I think, only a small LPG tank is required.
Clean burning more powerful diesels -why aren't the car & truck companies onto this?
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Old 28-06-2017, 02:19 PM   #106
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

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Originally Posted by jimt3te50 View Post
Most DPF systems run another injector in the exhaust stream rear of the turbo to inject fuel into the DPF to create enough heat to actively regenerate. Higher engine loads, higher
Ambient heat and longer trips allow the DPF to passively regenerate but when these conditions can't be replicated a forced burn or active regeneration is necessary.

Diesel engine emission technology is not very well
Conveyed to the general public- we got it on trucks well before it was mainstream on cars in Australia and it's turned the industry on its head. Adblue is a better technology generally for diesels particularly where stop/start, high idle time and low average speed/short trips are concerned. BUT it also has its issues and is bloody expense to fix with regards to its dosing units and the Exhaust Gas Processor (EGP) which is comparatively priced to a DPF- so it's not like you don't have that cost to replace...

My wife's SQ5 will be the first and last diesel car well ever own. We've had not one problem with it but I don't ever want to either- nor whatever replaces it. Petrol all the way...
Jim,

Are DPF and EGR the same thing?
I was recently talking to a couple of Centurion drivers up at Kumarina and one guy was shaking after the EGR burn went haywire and shut down his truck with an 8m load coming the other way.
Apparently this is not unusual.
600hp Detroits IIRC.
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Old 28-06-2017, 03:58 PM   #107
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

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Jim,

Are DPF and EGR the same thing?
I was recently talking to a couple of Centurion drivers up at Kumarina and one guy was shaking after the EGR burn went haywire and shut down his truck with an 8m load coming the other way.
Apparently this is not unusual.
600hp Detroits IIRC.
No, DPF and EGR are not the same.
Although they both suck.

As explained, a dpf is in the exhaust pipework and may or may not have another injector, aswell as its regen and burn requirements.

An EGR is an ' exhaust gas recirculation' system. Which essentially sucks exhaust through a cooler and back through your intake. Good for nothing other than emissions and clogging up your intake system.

And if they crack, your diesel engine can get a gutfull of water. Hence why most people do an egr block off.

Both dpf and egr are for emissions and nothing else.

Hope that helps.

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Old 28-06-2017, 09:42 PM   #108
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet View Post
Jim,

Are DPF and EGR the same thing?
I was recently talking to a couple of Centurion drivers up at Kumarina and one guy was shaking after the EGR burn went haywire and shut down his truck with an 8m load coming the other way.
Apparently this is not unusual.
600hp Detroits IIRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradZ
No, DPF and EGR are not the same.
Although they both suck.

As explained, a dpf is in the exhaust pipework and may or may not have another injector, aswell as its regen and burn requirements.

An EGR is an ' exhaust gas recirculation' system. Which essentially sucks exhaust through a cooler and back through your intake. Good for nothing other than emissions and clogging up your intake system.

And if they crack, your diesel engine can get a gutfull of water. Hence why most people do an egr block off.

Both dpf and egr are for emissions and nothing else.

Hope that helps.

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Just to expand on this- a DPF is largely used in combination with an EGR system and an EGP makes up part of the SCR (adblue) after treatment system.

The next round of emissions regulations in Australia keeps getting pushed out while the last two were very close together. There are no effective mainstream in-cylinder emissions treatment technologies available for Diesel engines- EGR is the best of the proven implemented technologies available, but still requires aftertreatment to get down to ADR80/04 levels which is where the DPF was added to the ADR80/03 compliant EGR fitted engines. SCR (Selective Catalyst Reduction) or Adblue systems also came out in ADR80/03 guise but were initially less popular because of the lack of infrastructure for adblue, though were arguably better technology. They also didn't suffer from any physical changes to meet the next round of ADR80/04 emissions as they simply required a (much) higher dose of adblue (5% to 10%) so were easier and presumably cheaper to propose and package for long term models.

It's the next round that'll make our heads spin though as they combine EGR, a DPF AND SCR. In the US, some vehicles are already fitted with these systems. It's a bloody nightmare. The physical room occupied by these systems is unbelievable and the cost to develop, implement and maintain/replace components is beyond belief.

Diesels will be dead, there are no two ways about it IMO. It cannot be sustainable. Trucks are another matter but affected the same way, probably more so because of the comparatively low volumes and lack of a globally uniform emissions standard. The issue with trucks though is there isn't a viable alternative like there is with a passenger vehicle. Except for hybrid electric and those are gaining massive momentum, but like any market Australia will test it and always create an exception. Our task is too great here but legislation will once again force changes in industry and I do feel our greatest ones are coming. It won't be an evolution, it will be a revolution I think.

The emerging trend of smaller capacity petrol engines with forced induction and high boost, ultra high fuel injection pressures etc is the way the internal combustion engine will survive in passenger vehicles as a viable alternative to new technology hybrid electric vehicles, especially as emissions standards become more and more stringent.

Good times people. Good times.
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Old 29-06-2017, 08:27 AM   #109
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

some tuners maybe able to bypass the DPF and EGR if asked nicely, for a fraction of the cost too

i'm thinking in 10 years time the wreckers will be flooded with clean, tidy, serviced, well cared for Diesel cars with DPF and EGR faults that are not worth fixing
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Old 29-06-2017, 05:03 PM   #110
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

This is the next revolution for trucks and Australia has PLENNNNNTY of fuel supply to implement it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mZplhmYw7E&t=95s

And not a single DPF anywhere in the exhaust system.

Last edited by GASWAGON; 29-06-2017 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 29-06-2017, 06:14 PM   #111
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

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This is the next revolution for trucks and Australia has PLENNNNNTY of fuel supply to implement it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mZplhmYw7E&t=95s



And not a single DPF anywhere in the exhaust system.

I don't know how old that video would be but Westport pulled out of heavy Diesel engines a few years ago now.

Kenworth were even the only one to offer that engine in an Australian produced T409 before Westport pulled the plug and ceased to support it.

There were so many drawbacks to the system it wasn't funny. Each LNG tank alone was about $50k. LNG also varies in capacity subject to temperature, has nowhere near the energy content so uses a great deal more to do the same job, has no range, no refuelling infrastructure, still needs about 2% Diesel to initiate the combustion process, and absolutely zero support. Add to that you need to have a quarantined area to work on them because of the gas certification and the complexity was unbelievable.

Oh, and it added $220k to the purchase price.

But, yeah, good pick up mate...
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Old 29-06-2017, 09:10 PM   #112
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

O.k so way too expensive at the moment then.

I still think the LPG/Diesel mix is the next best option then?
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Old 29-06-2017, 09:15 PM   #113
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

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Originally Posted by CoolBFWagon View Post
All this diesel emissions technology is BS.

It can easily be solved with LPG being also injected (cant remember the ratio i think about 20%) which helps diesel burn much much cleaner and leaves basically no emissions at the tailpipe and it also increases torque and power.

And yes Adblue for trucks does work but its only for Euro trucks afaik and its another cost on top of diesel when re filling.
Water/methanol works the same, and is much easier to install.

I have a WMI kit on my TDCI Focus, with an undersized nozzle it picked up 7KW at the front wheels on the dyno consistenly with the spray going then without it there.

It also greatly reduces how many times a DPF needs to regen, my Focus doesn't have a DPF though.

I was limited by how much boost I could run, I couldn't run more than 23 PSI because the MAP sensor wouldn't read above that and the tuning, you couldn't increase fuel as RPM increases, only across the board so the WMI was added in to help burn more of what was already going in.

Would I buy another diesel? Only a BMW diesel or one of the big American utes.

First order would be removing DPF and EGR.

Last edited by Franco Cozzo; 29-06-2017 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 29-06-2017, 10:32 PM   #114
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Default Re: Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

http://www.cumminswestport.com/2018-engines

big market is school bus and garbage trucks in the states. Everthing I read is about converting the usa regional fleet to run on 88% or 100% gas.

I saw a few running around Sydney this week after dark.

I expected DPF to be a big issue with trucks that I service and so far we only had EGR issues and over fuelling.

the dpf and cat fitted to RFS fire trucks is mindless and whats worse is the claim they cant be deleted even with factory support. I read that European fire services have been able to do it. The Isuzu fire trucks aren't as bad as the same commercial vehicle I guessing they had a better engine programing.

Mate of mine set up a few common rail diesel for stationary work.running aftermarket ecu. these ran good but would never pass a emisions test.
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Old 30-06-2017, 09:09 AM   #115
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Water/methanol works the same, and is much easier to install.

I have a WMI kit on my TDCI Focus, with an undersized nozzle it picked up 7KW at the front wheels on the dyno consistenly with the spray going then without it there.

It also greatly reduces how many times a DPF needs to regen, my Focus doesn't have a DPF though.

I was limited by how much boost I could run, I couldn't run more than 23 PSI because the MAP sensor wouldn't read above that and the tuning, you couldn't increase fuel as RPM increases, only across the board so the WMI was added in to help burn more of what was already going in.

.
You've said this before Franco, but water metho injection has been around even longer that I know of. sure it has its performance benefits

But were talking about using LPG to improve emissions, if a car manufacturer leveraged this benefit and actually built an engine specifically to run LPG/diesel I believe it would be a game changer.
Instead they toy with stuff like ad blu..
The bi product of the LPG system is more power -more economy comes from needing less pedal.
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Old 30-06-2017, 09:37 AM   #116
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I can't see any manufacturer adding LPG to a diesel powered car. I can't imagine trying to convince the average motorist that two types of fuels are required.
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Old 30-06-2017, 09:58 AM   #117
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Default Diesel Particulate Filter Problems

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O.k so way too expensive at the moment then.

I still think the LPG/Diesel mix is the next best option then?

No- and it's LNG not LPG. Big difference in the two and how they are packaged and delivered.
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Old 30-06-2017, 11:02 AM   #118
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I can't see any manufacturer adding LPG to a diesel powered car. I can't imagine trying to convince the average motorist that two types of fuels are required.
Adblu?
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Old 30-06-2017, 01:39 PM   #119
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No- and it's LNG not LPG. Big difference in the two and how they are packaged and delivered.
I remember those old Mitchell (now Toll) Kenworths doing the Dongara oil run used to run on LNG. Not sure if they still do?

Aren't those Perth buses that keep burning to the ground LNG powered too?
And what happened to those CNG buses from the 80's?
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Old 30-06-2017, 01:47 PM   #120
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I can't see any manufacturer adding LPG to a diesel powered car. I can't imagine trying to convince the average motorist that two types of fuels are required.
Well if they want cleaner burning trucks and buses its the only other option i can see them coming up with.

And the LPG tank would'nt need to be huge like the normal diesel tanks either as it only supplies 10-20% of LPG until the next refill.
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