Peter Brock overrated?

ehast13 · 24-04-2008, 12:28 PM

I don't know if this is the right forum but I was listening to some nonsense media claptrap this morning and the Journo spoke of Peter Brock and said "he was acknowledged as the best touring car driver of all time - in the world"

I hate to speak ill of the dead but, while brocky was fast, I can't see too many times when he had that much competition! Allow me to explain....

He won three championships

His first was against Moffat in an outgunned xa/xb. Moffat didn't even turn up to the last two rounds.

His second was in the new factory A9X. The moffat Cobras were out gunned and HDT was the only factory team. The follwing year, Bob Morris beat the 'shifty' HDT team in a privateer car.

In 1980, the biggest threat he faced was Bartletts Camaro. There was no real competition.

Yes he won a lot of enduros but he had the luck of being in the best car for the day (1972? 1978, 1979, 1982, 1983, 1984) or having the best team tactics or having the best luck (1980, 1987). When he went to BMW in 1988 with Jim Richards, richo spanked him. At some tracks richo was over a second quicker in qualifying! There's only about 20 months between them in age.

Brock was fast, naturally gifted but his last v8 supercar appearance saw him 4 or 5 seconds of the pace (struggling to qualify HRT 05 in 2.12 at Bathurst with Plato).

I won't go into his personal life as it has nothing to do with his racing. I will make one comment tho, for someone so inspitational he contradicted himself way too much. He was the ultimate snake oil salesman. The world is a poorer place since his death but to deify him as the 'best driver ever' is pushing it a bit far

JC · 24-04-2008, 01:58 PM

Look, wheile you are entitled to your opinion, it is not one I share. You measure a sports person success by how they perform. Brock won 9 Bathursts "The great Race". No-one else, international drivers included, has done that. There are a few close, but he won 9 (10 if you count the 12 hour). At times, he may not have been the fastest, and at times he was certainly not in the most powerful car - yet he still won. He won one race by more than one lap. Other times, his car broke, so he jumped into the cross entered car that was lower down in the order, and he drove it to the front and won.

The guy was a genius behind the wheel, and not a bad businessman as well - we're all allowed a mistake or two, and the polariser certainly polarised people, but HSV is where it is today because of Brock, and FPV is where it is because of HSV. His only other really big mistake cost him his life.

Yes, in my opinion, it does make him the greatest touring car driver to date. My 4 year old twins know who Peter Brock is and how he died. I am a reasonably dedicated Ford fan, but I will still try to instill in them an appreciation for great drivers like Brock (and good ones like Skaife too, while I'm at it).

If you want to talk of disappointing drivers, need I mention Lowndes?

Scott · 24-04-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

If you want to talk of disappointing drivers, need I mention Lowndes?

Lowndes is not disappointing to me, he is unlucky which is disappointing. I have never seen a driver that attracts the rough end of a pineapple like he does. Unfortunately now, his best days are behind him and a big chunk of those days were wasted by Ford. What a waste of the best talent this sport has seen since PB.

Lukeyson · 25-04-2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP006

his best days are behind him and a big chunk of those days were wasted by Ford. What a waste of the best talent this sport has seen since PB.

Exactly, great talent, never had the tools to get the job done. I hope it isnt over for him though

PB was a great, but i do understand where the original poster is coming from. Every little boy whether they liked Ford or H***en wanted to race cars like Brocky tho

SVR73 · 13-10-2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP006

Lowndes is not disappointing to me, he is unlucky which is disappointing. I have never seen a driver that attracts the rough end of a pineapple like he does. Unfortunately now, his best days are behind him and a big chunk of those days were wasted by Ford. What a waste of the best talent this sport has seen since PB.

No persons best days are behind them unless all their god given talent has been brought out and used
if there is still some unused talent like there is in me, then the best days are still out ahead

How has lowndes been a dissappointment - he has won three straight bathursts, three australian championships
what do you want him to do so he is not a dissappointment

**nuthin' fancy** · 18-10-2008, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP006

Lowndes is not disappointing to me, he is unlucky which is disappointing. I have never seen a driver that attracts the rough end of a pineapple like he does. Unfortunately now, his best days are behind him and a big chunk of those days were wasted by Ford. What a waste of the best talent this sport has seen since PB.

I know it is not touring cars but surely Mark Webber wins the prize for a great talent with the worst luck (mainly his choice of teams). He could have gone to Renault instead of Red Bull and Alonso has just won two in a row.

How good was Brock? Good at everything, he could drive, he could nurse a car, he could prepare a car, he could get proper backing at the right time. He was lucky so many times (and I don't say that to denigrate him in any way) by being in the right place at the right time.

He pushed himself a bit too hard after retiring from touring cars, it seems a lack of preparation is what finished him off in the end.

He will be remembered for a very long time and that is a very strong measure of the perception of how good he was.

**DJR-351** · 18-10-2008, 10:06 PM

PB was a great peddler the stats prove that...........

Webber, well the family has deep pockets to keep him going, but sorry i subscribe to the saying "a poor tradesman always blames his tools" in the sport of F1 IMO he is only an average driver, how many teams does he need to go through, i dont hear of any of the top teams breaking doors down to sign him up.

If you are an exceptional driver it will show regardless of your ride and the wins/teams will follow...............

philstoj · 18-10-2008, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA351COUPE

PB was a great peddler the stats prove that...........

Webber, well the family has deep pockets to keep him going, but sorry i subscribe to the saying "a poor tradesman always blames his tools" in the sport of F1 IMO he is only an average driver, how many teams does he need to go through, i dont hear of any of the top teams breaking doors down to sign him up.

If you are an exceptional driver it will show regardless of your ride and the wins/teams will follow...............

Yeah so with your logic, Lewis hamilton would win F1 races driving the Force India cars?

:

Buddy 1 · 30-04-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

Look, wheile you are entitled to your opinion, it is not one I share. You measure a sports person success by how they perform. Brock won 9 Bathursts "The great Race". No-one else, international drivers included, has done that. There are a few close, but he won 9 (10 if you count the 12 hour). At times, he may not have been the fastest, and at times he was certainly not in the most powerful car - yet he still won. He won one race by more than one lap. Other times, his car broke, so he jumped into the cross entered car that was lower down in the order, and he drove it to the front and won.

The guy was a genius behind the wheel, and not a bad businessman as well - we're all allowed a mistake or two, and the polariser certainly polarised people, but HSV is where it is today because of Brock, and FPV is where it is because of HSV. His only other really big mistake cost him his life.

Yes, in my opinion, it does make him the greatest touring car driver to date. My 4 year old twins know who Peter Brock is and how he died. I am a reasonably dedicated Ford fan, but I will still try to instill in them an appreciation for great drivers like Brock (and good ones like Skaife too, while I'm at it).

If you want to talk of disappointing drivers, need I mention Lowndes?

Agree with everything you said apart from Craig Lowndes as another has mentioned he has had some bad Luck & some of it at the Hands of Weasel Brothers Inc & not all of that was by Accident either.

Brock was a Truly Gifted Driver & Great Man with Vision

And Lowndsy give back as good as you get

as you remind me of PB in the way you Drive & I just know you can overcome the Weasels lol

Yaw · 30-04-2008, 02:28 PM

Someone mentioned question of what had he done outside of Australia,
He did do some overseas tourers, but what clinches it for me was a Murray Walker statement after he had done a lap or 2 with Peter Brock one year.

Before I quote what Murray had to say, I want to explain why I think what he said does make Peter Brock one of the best drivers ever.
Consider Murray Walker has been around Formula 1 and many other types of international motor sports the most of his life. Now these people that he has studied are fantastic drivers and sportsmen in thier own right.
What Murray said about Peter Brock now.
"He is the most line perfect driver I have ever seen"
Now considering the above...that is a huge statement.

Scott · 24-04-2008, 02:39 PM

PB was tremendous. He was a driver that not only had a great car & team but he could race on the ragged edge for hours at a time. Have a look through the last few pages in the "Ebay, youtube etc car related thread" and you'll see some links I posted there that show just how good not only Brock was, but how good his competition was too.

Jim Richards is arguably as good, if not a better driver than Brock if you look at his whole career but Jim is not quite the "whole package" that Brock was. Jim still enjoys much success which Brock didn't find in his days after ATCC/V8SC.

Brock was an incredible driver:

At Bathurst he lost 5kg's per race!! - these were the days before cool suits & adequate ventilation mind you.

He was an incredible business man (ok, polarizer is a bad example but I dare you to go and look at the value of one today!),

He built great cars (ref the example of him bringing BMW's in from Germany to study them as a basis of how to make a Commodore handle. By the time he looked at the BMW, made it handle like he thought it should, and sent it back to BMW when he was done, they looked at what he had done - studied it and gifted the car back to him. Those learnings are why Brock Commodores could hold such high cornering G's without loss of traction.

He [must have been] a great family man even though he was divorced twice - I have never heard any of his family ever say anything but the best about him;

He has a legion of fans that is still growing, and they are amongst the most passionate fans you will find anywhere in the world, in any sport;

He is the reason the 0.05 message is so strong today.

He invested heavily into Australian Sport & Charity and led the charge of Australian Racing o/s. What kind of twit takes an FX to the UK to race amongst the best touring cars of that era.... and gets it home in 4th? Peter Brock, thats who. Before that he took his VK there and ran 5th. Can't remember where he took the VL.....

**Raptor** · 24-04-2008, 04:52 PM

He certainly had some talent in his day and was very charismatic and thus deserving of the success he enjoyed, both at the track and in business. Regardless of what I thought of him in his latter years (and it isn't flattering) there isn't another presonality that I can think of that did as much for the profile of motorsport as PB did.

Can you name any other driver whose accidental death would make front page news across the country, just like Steve Irwin he was an icon in his field and it was ironic that they both met their accidental ends only months apart.

red_hotxr6 · 01-05-2008, 02:15 PM

Can you name any other driver whose accidental death would make front page news across the country, just like Steve Irwin he was an icon in his field and it was ironic that they both met their accidental ends only months apart.[/QUOTE]

Yes i can,.DICK JOHNSON.....no problems...

Blue Oval Mopar Man · 02-05-2008, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

just like Steve Irwin he was an icon in his field and it was ironic that they both met their accidental ends only months apart.

It was infact, only 4 days apart . While I personaly witnessed the brilliance of Peter Brock at Bathhurst on that fatefull day in 1979 , where he won in the A9X by 6 laps , I was stunned that he run the fastest lap of the race on lap 163 and he did it while waving to the crowd thru skyline and steering with one hand , I have also witnessed the cunning and ruthlessness the great Brocky was capable of.

It was 1983 when he cross entered all the team drivers in both team cars. 05 died within the first hour of the great race so Peter and his co driver Larry Perkins took over the 25 car and won the race. Now John Harvey started the race and drove to the first pit stop where the car was commendered and the co driver of 25, Peters own brother Phil Brock never got to drive . After driving all week ,practising and qualifying Phil Brock never actually drove in the race and there for never got a mention as a winner at bathurst . The winners that year were Peter Brock,Larry Perkins and John Harvey.

Even though brocky had his faults I do class him as one of the best sedan racers in the history of the world as true blue ford man I have a soft spot in my heart for him .

MAGPIE · 24-04-2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehast13

and the Journo spoke of Peter Brock and said "he was acknowledged as the best touring car driver of all time - in the world"

What a load of rubbish, what did he win outside of Australia, unless you have a proven record in a variety of competitions how can you be the best ever.

He was a great driver, that cannot be disputed but the best touring car driver of all time... no way.

Scott · 24-04-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

What a load of rubbish, what did he win outside of Australia, unless you have a proven record in a variety of competitions how can you be the best ever.

He was a great driver, that cannot be disputed but the best touring car driver of all time... no way.

So by that rationale, you can't say anyone else is better because they didn't come here and beat the great PB to a level where you could say they were a better driver.

MAGPIE · 24-04-2008, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP006

So by that rationale, you can't say anyone else is better because they didn't come here and beat the great PB to a level where you could say they were a better driver.

:

No, my rationale is....

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

unless you have a proven record in a variety of competitions how can you be the best ever.

Just my opinion, don't let it keep you awake at night

:

RIPGMH · 24-04-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehast13

"he was acknowledged as the best touring car driver of all time - in the world"

Jim Richards always seemed the more technically skilled driver, but that doesn't make you the greatest, nor does PB winning all that he did. You could easily say that he should be regarded as one of the best but the above statement is a bit of a stretch.

Bossxr8 · 24-04-2008, 08:26 PM

I agree, Brock won most of his Bathursts when he either had no competition or he jumped in the other car when his blew up. He always had the best car too. All his wins came late 70's, early eighties, when HDT were king and Ford weren't even interested in racing anymore. He was good, but he was never the god his fans made him out to be.

In terms of Championships I consider DJ's wins were of a higher achievement, as he had next to no backing from Ford and he did alot of the development work himself, he didn't rely on factory personnel and factory dollars to do it.

Scott · 24-04-2008, 08:34 PM

lol, ok.

schnoods · 25-04-2008, 12:55 AM

Great driver, not the best, but right up there.

Your only as good as the competiton you race and the track your on.

I still consider him to have only won 9 titles, the one in 2003, at the Bathurst 24 Hour, when he won, with Greg Murphy, Jason Bright and Todd Kelly in a Garry Rogers Motorsport prepared HRT 427C, was a joke to say the least, the only competition the had was from the other 427 monaro, while the rest of the field could only compete in cars that you could actually buy.

He was good, but not that good. He won 3 ATC titles, Ian Geoghegan won 5, Jim richards 4, Skaife has won a ATC title too, along with 3 V8 supercar titles too.

gtxb67 · 25-04-2008, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schnoods

Ian Geoghegan won 5, Jim richards 4, Skaife has won a ATC title too, along with 3 V8 supercar titles too.

ian geoghan won only 1 touring car title. he was champion 4 other times when the championship consisted of 1 race. skaife has won the title 5 times (4 as v8 supercar champion). sorry to be so pedantic

in my view from what i have seen moff and brock are the 2 best. while i worship one, i have no time for the other, but they were both legends on the track. moff won the sebring 12 hours outright in 1975, and won class victories at le mans and daytona as well. if you take away the romance of 9 bathurst victories moff has the better record in my view.
brock had to do a lot wrong to lose bathurst between 1978 and 1984 - simply because a holden was going to win all but one of those and he had the best holden. he certainly deserved the best holden though, as moff had always deserved the best ford

gcg2503 · 25-04-2008, 02:14 AM

Think the statement is a bit of a stretch IMO but a tremendous driver nonetheless

MITCHAY · 25-04-2008, 02:25 PM

He's the best if you ask me

Rev28K · 26-04-2008, 07:24 PM

He was definitely one the best touring car drivers in the world (top ten of all time).

Like a lot of our drivers there is a possibility that others could’ve done more if given the chances and opportunities that Brock had – but they didn’t did they. At his peak he was very good at doing what he did, other drivers may have been as capable but they were a bit one-dimensional all they could do was race cars well without beating them up. John Bagshaw said that they shipped PB off to a finishing school to round off the rough edges and make him more media presentable and they did an exceptional job on PB. He was incredible to watch with the fans, I met him a few times and each time it was a “WOW” moment.

Don’t forget he was initially hired for his rally abilities (anyone remember the Round Australia win with the then new Commodores), he also dragged up the 3.0CSL BMW way up the field with Team Brock at Le Mans. I’ve had occasion to talk with Ron Bentley (who built his first race car) and he said that he stood out as being more gifted than the average race driver. While he had his faults (very superstitious about the Bob Jane Porsche at Le Mans – some of his mechanical sympathy was a bit opportunistic – I thought setting quickest lap at Bathurst in the A9X on the last lap when he had the race by the balls was a bit dumb - he never liked Nascar racing (then again neither did Johnson while Jimmy Richards LOVED it) – In the later days at HRT he would try to simply drive around a problem rather than identify it and solve it) on his day he was a very good racer and a wonderful ambassador for the sport. Like a lot of Australia’s “greats” (Moffat, Johnson, Perkins, Bowe, etc) he also carried on far longer than he should have.

It’s always hard to rate people from different eras. Some people say that one of the things about champions is that they have the good gear and can drag the good people towards them then lift a team up while others argue that a champion will drag a car up far above where it should finish. I’ve spoken to someone who’s team raced against HDT (he wound up working for HDT for a while) back in the ATCC days and he said that Brock (and HDT) was always the one they measured themselves against.

gtxb67 · 26-04-2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev28K

Like a lot of Australia’s “greats” (Moffat, Johnson, Perkins, Bowe, etc) he also carried on far longer than he should have.

while i see your point - and admit i am biased, moff won the last race he entered. a 500k touring car race in japan on the eve of his 50th birthday in november 1999. it was no doubt more to do with klaus neidzwiedz than allan, but he did win it

ehast13 · 28-04-2008, 09:51 AM

Wow. I guessed I stirred up a hornets nest. I am surprised that His business acumen and family life were brought into it. Even he acknowledged he couldn't run a country toilet successfully. He had little business acumen. He was a brand name which was marketed successfully until he threw it all away.

It wasn't just the polarizer that sunk him. He was building cars without consultation with Holden. He released the Director with AdR testing it, oh man!

He had a few partners and there were allegations from one wife of violence (and other assorted unmentionable behaviours). He was a womanisor (ask my wife!, or even Bev Brock - she was the wife of one of his employees and he cheated on her too!)

His PR image was an illusion. Ask any reporter who questioned his vehicles, motives or honesty (even in the face of overwhelming evidence) and they'll tell you he could turn very dark, very quickly.

In a 1994 article on old race cars he said "I never remember old race cars. They are just tools of the trade. I wouldn't have the faintest about the 79 a9x. Moffat was always sentimental about that sort of stuff"

Not that much later when being interviewed about his 79 A9X by another magazine "Oh Yeah, I remember everything about that car. I guess I'm a bit more sentimental about the old cars than most. I always felt that you had a relationship with the car. I used to talk to them. I think I can remember every car I ever raced"

The guy's public face was just that, a facade. He told reporters what they wanted to hear.

As for speed, he was fast but he was no match Colin Bond on dirt (Harry Firth said this last year) and from 78 to 84 who had a team to match his at Bathurst? JOhnson's privateer operation? Moffats torqueless mazda?

Please, the only time he spun was when he was under pressure. Grice was as quick but too rough on the car.

I believe Brocky was one of the best. But I don't think he was better than Richo who always equalled or bettered him in the same equipment.

Oh, Brock fixing BMW's. Yeah he did really well in 1988! He was usually only a second slower than his teammate.

Steffo · 28-04-2008, 11:27 AM

I'll agree that Brock was a tad on the overrated side.

He won one race alot. He didn't win many championships.

As far as I'm concerned, championship > Bathurst. Its just one race, where the entire championship is a year's worth of consistancy and performance... far more impressive and admirable.

Nikked · 02-05-2008, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

As far as I'm concerned, championship > Bathurst. Its just one race, where the entire championship is a year's worth of consistancy and performance... far more impressive and admirable.

That probally the most impressive thing i've seen you type. The problem is bathust has such a grip on the australian motoring comunity, its the holy grail, and the measure of sucsess, which is annoying, because as you said it one race.

ehast13 · 28-04-2008, 02:01 PM

Yeah, I tend to agree with that.

The problem with enduros is that it is often no the fastest driver who wins (particularly before 1993) as reliability was so stretched. Even drivers who were renowned for being easy on the car had failures (Brock 74, Moffat 74, 75, 76, 78, 79, 80). The fact remains that I enjoy watching bathurst more than any other race.

I think JC got a little offended and forgot to look at the post objectivly.

Tom Walkinshaw was an unbelievable touring car driver in his day. His first visit to bathurst in 84 in John Goss' Jag showed what the man could do. He surprised a few people that day.

Had he or John Fitzpatrick or even Win Percy been given factory drives in the second HDT car I am sure they would have figured in the results.

Had Richo stayed with HDT He would have shared another 3 wins and would have ten. If his 1995 commodre hadn't suffered a minor component failure he might have eleven. If Skaife hadn't put it in the wall in 1994 he might have twelve. If the BMW in 87 didn't lose a brake he might have 13. If Brock had been as quick as Richo in 88 then he might have 14.

Moffat, Johnson, Grice etc all have similar sad tales as does Brock (74, 75) but enduros are not a measure of the man as much as they are an indication of the reiabiliy and pace from the team and car.

It is a sad indication of true pace when we can only easure 1000km enduros from 1987 backwards.