Buying second hand MC Mondeo titanium

Josh_mac3 · 31-03-2016, 11:07 AM

Looking at a used 2011 TDCi mc Mondeo titanium. The car has done 75,000k's and seems in fairly good condition. The only thing really bothering me is the reports of problems with the transmission. I'm not very mechanically savvy so just after some tips to look for before purchasing.

Does anyone know if the transmission problems are a common fault? I have read they are expensive to fix so I do not want to encounter this in the future.

Thanks

NZ XR6 · 31-03-2016, 12:10 PM

The Powershift boxes need a fluid change every 60,000 km, so it would pay to check that this has been done. The Ford fluid is very expensive and costs about $300, but there are now alternative sources such as Penrite that are much cheaper.

Others here can tell you more about the problems, but the Powershift can go wrong and can be very expensive to repair.

I would certainly want a mechanical warranty if I was buying a MC, but the Titanium is a very nice car.

Josh_mac3 · 31-03-2016, 12:20 PM

Thanks for the quick reply.

The problems with the powershift are my main concern. As the car is being sold from holden dealership I'm reluctant to take out their extended warranty as I would have to take the car there to be serviced. I also have my own preferred mechanic but I can't afford to fork out a replacement gearbox.

Everything else about the titanium I like, however this may steer me away from purchasing it

whitelion65 · 31-03-2016, 03:23 PM

Do a search Josh. Lots on here with PS Mondeos, and no problems.
Mine is a similar vintage to what you are looking at; 78,000km, MC Titanium wagon.
A great car!
Good luck.

**Giant Cranium** · 31-03-2016, 03:34 PM

Power shift is fine in a diesel. It is a wet clutch transmission. The petrols are the problem. My old man is at 100000 on his mc titanium diesel and not one issue with the car

Mondaveo · 31-03-2016, 06:13 PM

(Apologies in advance for the novel...)

It's the dry-clutch Powershift used in previous-gen Fiesta and petrol Focus that are known to have issues. A seal fails, allowing oil to leak onto the clutch plates and causing slipping and shuddering in between gear changes.

The unit used in Mondeo is a high-torque variant with clutches operating in a bath of fluid, hence 'wet' clutch. It seems to be more robust and not prone to the kinds of problems that afflicted the early dry-clutch examples, so long as the transmission fluid is not contaminated (do your services on time). I'm not aware of any reports of widespread failure in these cars like are known for the smaller cars with the dry clutch.

It's important to understand that all Powershift DCTs are essentially a manual (clutch and gears) transmission, that happens to be shifted automatically. As such, it feels different to a conventional automatic transmission; at low speeds (particularly walking pace), Powershift won't be as smooth as a conventional auto. Where it comes into its own is once you're moving at speed, delivering quick gear changes and better efficiency.

In Mondeos the one failure that does seem to happen, from recent experience with a couple of cases on this forum, is the electronic sensors go bad. When this happens, the computer can't make correct shifting decisions and may shift roughly, hesitate between gears, or not shift at all. Unfortunately, like many failures of electronic components, the onset and symptoms can be intermittent and hard to diagnose. Doubly unfortunately, the unit has not been designed for easy access and replacement of components, so repairs for one misbehaving sensor get bloody expensive.

It's hard to advise what you can look for, as even a car with a preexisting problem may be good on the day you test drive it, but I'll offer the following:

From standing starts and at walking pace, the pick-up should be reasonably smooth - remember it won't be as buttery as a conventional auto, but should be at least as smooth as you could manage with the clutch in a manual. Shuddering or bad vibration could indicate fluid contamination or damage to the clutch pack. Be aware that there's a significant lag before the power comes in on the turbo-diesel.
Once you're up to speed, gear shifts should be quick and seamless. Vary your speed, or use the manual sports mode to get it to change up and down. Be suspicious if changes are jerky or harsh, or it seems to drop into neutral in between gears.
The transmission should shift in a decisive manner, but evaluate any hesitation in the context of how you were driving. The DCT works by 'guessing' what gear you're likely to need next and it can get wrong-footed.

In addition to making sure the Powershift services have been carried out on time, as others have said.

End of the day, as stated it's only a couple of experiences that have ended in expensive repairs; I'm confident the vast majority of Mondeo Powershifts will have no problem (though less confident my own car is among them!).

rondeo · 31-03-2016, 07:30 PM

That was quite a good novel I thought, well worth the read and quite realistic.
The only (and minor) criticism is the 'I'm confident' bit. Being a pessimist I'm more inclined to look at statistics, which are technically unavailable. Still, my two have done about 135,000km and are running beautifully. Dare I say, I love 'em?

Josh_mac3 · 31-03-2016, 09:35 PM

Thanks all for your help. I appreciate the novel; very helpful and detailed.

It's good to know that the diesel wet clutches are far more reliable. I guess after looking around for 'faults', every fault possible is what you're going to find.

I have taken it for one test drive but I wasn't aware of what to look for, I was more intrigued by all the gadgets, however I didn't notice anything I thought to be out of the ordinary; I thought it drove very nice. Next test drive will be a lot more in depth. I also will have to check the service history for the 60k trans fluid change has been done.

The holden dealership offer a 5 year extended warranty. I'm sure there lots of t&c's involved however do you think it's worth taking it out for the piece of mind? I don't know how I feel about taking a Ford to a holden service centre and I don't think my independent mechanic would approve, but it could probe worth it in the long run.

Mondaveo · 01-04-2016, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh_mac3

Thanks all for your help. I appreciate the novel; very helpful and detailed.

(...)

The holden dealership offer a 5 year extended warranty. I'm sure there lots of t&c's involved however do you think it's worth taking it out for the piece of mind? I don't know how I feel about taking a Ford to a holden service centre and I don't think my independent mechanic would approve, but it could probe worth it in the long run.

You're welcome; I'm (we're all?) learning as we go, so it's nice to put something back in and hear it's helpful to others.

I think the extended warranty from the Holden dealer sounds like an excellent path to peace of mind, assuming the cost and T's & C's aren't too draconian. If you have to use them for servicing, I would check them to make sure they use the right spec of oil (especially if the car in question is a diesel) and the right fluid for the Powershift - in saying that, I would do the same even taking my car to a Ford dealer. To read these forums, evidently not even all Ford dealers know or care how to service Ford product properly. You can find lots of info about the right spec fluids in threads here by rondeo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

That was quite a good novel I thought, well worth the read and quite realistic.
The only (and minor) criticism is the 'I'm confident' bit. Being a pessimist I'm more inclined to look at statistics, which are technically unavailable. Still, my two have done about 135,000km and are running beautifully. Dare I say, I love 'em?

Thanks and I agree, I would love to see statistics to quantify this stuff. When I say I'm confident, it's based on my impression from searching the wider internet. Everyone talks about the Powershift faults in Fiesta and Focus, but you don't see a lot of discussion for Mondeo (although AFF is climbing the Google results for those search terms!). They sell heaps of these cars in Europe, so I feel that if there were something afoot we'd hear more about it.

Funny to hear you say you're a pessimist when you're the originator of the recent happy thoughts Powershift thread

But that gives us an opportunity to do a quick survey. Bearing in mind this is not a representative sample, and most people won't come looking to say anything unless they have a problem, we have...

rondeo - MC LX TDCi, 135,000km - no problems
rondeo - MC Zetec TDCi 135,000km - no problems
whitelion65 - 2012 MC Titanium TDCi, 75,000km - no problems
Giant Cranium('s dad) - MC TDCi, 100,000km - no issues throughout
Canyonero - MC Zetec Ecoboost, 50,000km - no problems
Binny - 2011 MC TDCi, 95,000km - "a couple of stumbles like it had to have a second go at changing gears. Otherwise no dramas for the 40,000k I've had it."
borntoshop666 - MB TDCi, 238,000km - no Powershift issues
DFB FGXR6 - MC Titanium Ecoboost - no issues
stuart - MC Titanium 2.2LTDCi, 60,000km - without any transmission issues
Fehlbie - Titanium TDCi, 200,000km - still working beautifully

Contrasted with:

Noelcbp - 2012 MC Titanium, 38,500km - Resolved fault - 'Major Transmission Failure' event and loss of drive, seemed good after restart. Diagnosed by fault codes, mechatronic unit replaced under warranty.
SkidMarks - 2011 MC TDCi, 140,000km - Resolved by itself? - Shuddering or abrupt engagement when moving from stationary.
Bobthekelpy - 2010 MC TDCi, 135,000km - Resolution unknown? - Intermittently throws fault codes for input speed sensor and goes onto one clutch. $3K quote to fix.
Groomy - MC, 135,000km - Outcome unknown? - Intermittent rough shifts. Diagnosed shaft sensor by fault code and clutch pack damage in transmission fluid, $4.5K quote to fix.
bundybear75 - 2012 MC LX TDCi, 134,000km - Resolved fault - 'Transmission Limited Function' event and loss of drive, came good after restart but CEL remained on and intermittent rough shifts. Diagnosed Powershift sensor by fault code, $2.5K quote to fix. Repaired under warranty.
manchu - 2012 MC TDCi, 72,000km - Resolved fault - Multiple 'Transmission Limited Function' events with loss of drive, coming good after restart. TCM replaced under warranty.
Mondaveo - 2011 MC Titanium TDCi, 90,000km - Suspect? - 'Transmission Limited Function' event and loss of drive, came good after restart. Has had occasional stumbles on shifting as long as I've owned it (about 4000km now).

That's 10 for and between 3 and 7 against, depending on how you want to count those that didn't report back; but 5 definite diagnoses of Powershift faults, anyway. Hmm, not as reassuring as I'd hoped, particularly for me being in that second list myself with no warranty to back me up

Don't get me wrong, because I love my car too, and the Powershift is honestly a delight when it's working. Each day I get a little more confidence back...

Fehlbie · 31-03-2016, 10:57 PM

I have a diesel titanium which is about to click over 200,000kms, power shift gearbox is still working beautifully.

juzandbec · 01-04-2016, 12:32 AM

I purchased the 'same' car with 100k kms on it last May. I too was concerned about the powershift as it seems to come up on a search as the primary fault in an otherwise perfect car. In my research I read that a symptom of a failing powershift is surging or fluctuating rpm whilst maintaining a steady throttle up an incline - there is a YouTube video of what the tachometer does in this case. Sure enough, the first Mondeo I test drove ( from a Holden dealership incidentally ) did exactly that. Whilst driving up a hill on the return trip I watched the tachometer and it fluctuated up and down about 500rpm despite me holding the throttle steady and no change in incline.
The 2nd Mondeo I test drove held the rpm's perfectly steady - so I bought the car, with a 6 year warranty as whilst the model has a great reputation, there are a lot of gadgets on a Titanium that would hurt the hip pocket if they failed. I've already used the warranty as the left rear curtain airbag failed and was apparently $600 just for the part, so my warranty has already paid for itself.
Definitely something to consider even if you need to take it back to them as they are responsible.

Josh_mac3 · 01-04-2016, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juzandbec

In my research I read that a symptom of a failing powershift is surging or fluctuating rpm whilst maintaining a steady throttle up an incline - there is a YouTube video of what the tachometer does in this case.

Thanks for the reply. I did see that video of the tacho fluctuating, before I purchase I will be sure to take it for another test drive to check that and the other things mentioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

That's 10 for and between 3 and 7 against, depending on how you want to count those that didn't report back; but 5 definite diagnoses of Powershift faults, anyway. Hmm, not as reassuring as I'd hoped, particularly for me being in that second list myself with no warranty to back me up

Don't get me wrong, because I love my car too, and the Powershift is honestly a delight when it's working. Each day I get a little more confidence back...

Thanks again for the in-depth response. I think I've come to the conclusion that at the end of the day, I'm buying a second hand car and there is always going to be a chance of something going wrong no matter what car it is. That being said, its nice to know the 'common' faults and be wary of the symptoms.

Tomorrow I plan to contact the dealer to see if he can send me the detail from the service history; first point and check the 60k km trans fluid. The car was apparently an ex company car from woolworths.. I would think that they would have serviced regularly and through the ford dealer. If I'm happy with that side of things I think I will go ahead with the second test drive.

rxj · 30-04-2016, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juzandbec

I too was concerned about the powershift as it seems to come up on a search as the primary fault in an otherwise perfect car. In my research I read that a symptom of a failing powershift is surging or fluctuating rpm whilst maintaining a steady throttle up an incline - there is a YouTube video of what the tachometer does in this case.

My 2011 MC Mondeo has started to do this and it is most notable at 1.5K RPM and with a steady throttle at 80Kph but this happens on a flat road. My car has 63K on the clock. I will have to take it to the dealer in the next few days to find out the exact problem.

Cheers, rxj

383hq · 01-05-2016, 02:22 PM

have a MC diesel zetec
no problems with powershift trans, currently at 143k km's.

My only point of contention is that with great fuel economy, comes technological complexity (and cost) - some bits could be expensive to repair, but until they fail/wear out, I can't tell ya much more !

manchu · 01-05-2016, 06:06 PM

Speaking of economy, I'm thinking mine isn't as good as it should be. Just did 700km round trip (melb to lakes entrance) and averaged 6.6l/100km. Reasonable loaded with 2 small kids, wife, dog. Does that sound about right?

bundybear75 · 01-05-2016, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchu

Speaking of economy, I'm thinking mine isn't as good as it should be. Just did 700km round trip (melb to lakes entrance) and averaged 6.6l/100km. Reasonable loaded with 2 small kids, wife, dog. Does that sound about right?

With the up and down and slow and fast on that section of road, I would say your 6.6l/100km was right on the money.

I'm averaging 6.2l/100km with a regular freeway 96km each way commute with cruise set at indicated 115km/h (110km/h real speed) plus a little driving around town thrown in. Thats my ample frame, my work mate plus a few odds and ends in the back.

On a side note, I brought my Triton to work tonight and used as much fuel on the one way trip as I would return in the Mondeo. (12.7l/100km)

rxj · 14-05-2016, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rxj

My 2011 MC Mondeo has started to do this and it is most notable at 1.5K RPM and with a steady throttle at 80Kph but this happens on a flat road. My car has 63K on the clock. I will have to take it to the dealer in the next few days to find out the exact problem.

Cheers, rxj

Dealer advised that at the last service when they replaced the transmission fluid they didn't fill it properly. They have topped up the fluid and it has made no difference, still jerky and not smooth. At the moment I'm driving it in sport shift mode. They have advised that no errors came up on the computer and don't believe the transmission was damaged as a result of the low fluid. May need to get a second opinion.

Cheers, rxj

Mondaveo · 16-05-2016, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rxj

Dealer advised that at the last service when they replaced the transmission fluid they didn't fill it properly. They have topped up the fluid and it has made no difference, still jerky and not smooth. At the moment I'm driving it in sport shift mode. They have advised that no errors came up on the computer and don't believe the transmission was damaged as a result of the low fluid. May need to get a second opinion.

Cheers, rxj

That doesn't sound too good. Hopefully they're right about no lasting damage, and it's just that the computer needs to re-learn the gearbox's characteristics.

What kind of symptoms are you getting? You say jerky and not smooth (on gear changes?), but earlier you indicated you had oscillating RPMs when driving at constant speed?

Curious if driving in manual sport shift should make much difference. The computer is still in charge of executing gear changes, the manual shifts are only "requests" to the computer to make a change.

Hope you'll keep us informed of how things turn out!

rxj · 20-05-2016, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

That doesn't sound too good. Hopefully they're right about no lasting damage, and it's just that the computer needs to re-learn the gearbox's characteristics.

What kind of symptoms are you getting? You say jerky and not smooth (on gear changes?), but earlier you indicated you had oscillating RPMs when driving at constant speed?

Curious if driving in manual sport shift should make much difference. The computer is still in charge of executing gear changes, the manual shifts are only "requests" to the computer to make a change.

Hope you'll keep us informed of how things turn out!

Driving in manual sport shift mode provided a better driving experience since I was able to request the shifts as you mentioned. However, since the last post I have found that the computer has appeared to relearn the gears and now I no longer have an issue. Not sure whether driving it using the manual shift mode made any difference or just coincidence.

Cheers,

rxj

NZ XR6 · 17-05-2016, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rxj

Dealer advised that at the last service when they replaced the transmission fluid they didn't fill it properly. They have topped up the fluid and it has made no difference, still jerky and not smooth. At the moment I'm driving it in sport shift mode. They have advised that no errors came up on the computer and don't believe the transmission was damaged as a result of the low fluid. May need to get a second opinion.

Cheers, rxj

At least they admitted it. Was the box OK before the service?

rxj · 17-05-2016, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

At least they admitted it. Was the box OK before the service?

Yes the box was OK before the scheduled service.

Cheers,

rxj

empee82 · 01-04-2016, 04:43 PM

I have an MC Titanium TDCi about to hit 90K kms with no issues FYI. If something goes wrong people are going to look & complain on the www. If people are happy, they have no reason to go online & stop the haters.

cyclone1410 · 01-04-2016, 09:03 PM

Done almost 20,000km over two and half years and not a single issue (touch wood) other than a dealer related lack of customer service. Not many km's I know but still one to add to the positive list. Each time I can wrench the car from my better half and go for a drive, I get out with a big satisfied smile on my face. It truly is a great car.

cobrin · 02-04-2016, 10:00 AM

there's nothing wrong with the Mondeo on the whole, however what is wrong is deciding on one with a previous issue with the trans. There are plenty out there with no previous trans history. Shoot for those instead.

I'd not have wanted this one either, but I chose the safe bet and got one with a slushbox. Good idea on walking on that vehicle, keep your eye out there'll be others.

NZ XR6 · 03-04-2016, 06:31 PM

It shouldn't be difficult to diagnose and fix electrical faults in a Mondeo, or any other modern car. I suspect it has more to do with a general lack of competence by mechanics rather than the vehicle.

Having said that, it is difficult to go past Japanese when buying used. Except for Mitsubishi!

cyclone1410 · 03-04-2016, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

It shouldn't be difficult to diagnose and fix electrical faults in a Mondeo, or any other modern car. I suspect it has more to do with a general lack of competence by mechanics rather than the vehicle.

Having said that, it is difficult to go past Japanese when buying used. Except for Mitsubishi!

Absolutely spot on. Virtually all new cars use similar CANBUS systems, multiple control modules, and an array of sensors. A quick trip around manufacturer/model specific forums will glean a wealth of data highlighting similar issues (and costs) to what is shown on this forum. The difference is the knowledge and customer service approach of the dealer.

NZ XR6 · 01-05-2016, 08:30 PM

I'd say in the ballpark but maybe a little higher than I'd expect. We're you using cruise control?

manchu · 01-05-2016, 09:58 PM

Yeah cruise wherever possible. There's a few towns to slow down through, and roads were pretty wet so maybe those factors added a little.

Mondaveo · 02-05-2016, 11:50 PM

For what it's worth, my car is also indicating an average consumption of 6.6l/100km over the last 3-4 full tanks. Usage has been about 50% city and 50% highway, plus a couple of hours of stationary idling (because baby happened to be asleep) - I'm guessing it may not count that for calculating the mileage though.

6.6 is a bit higher than I expected to get, since with my driving style I usually beat the advertised consumption - can't complain though, since I only drive on weekends and a tank takes me so long between fills!

Binny · 16-05-2016, 11:39 PM

I tell you what I have been too busy to be paranoid about the powershift over the last 2 months due to fixing up our old house to sell and then moving house. So I have been "just driving it".

"Just driving it", in addition to my usual commutes etc has involved a lot of towing cage trailers doing runs to the dump and moving furniture. Also with the back seat folded and full to the brim with belongings for multiple trips between houses. Its amazing how much you can fit into one of these things. So much more than the sedans I have owned before.

It's now about due for the 105k service and it has not missed a beat. According to the weighbridge at the dump one trip the combined weight of car + trailer + family was 2.7 tonne. It really is amazing how that little diesel can move that much weight so easily.
And the long term consumption is sitting on 6.1.
Time to give it some TLC and a detail inside and out this weekend. It's
earned it.