"Speed Cameras" are about to get better, or worse?

[Daymoe]

CRIMTRAC's planned automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) system could become a mass surveillance system, taking as many as 70 million photos of cars and drivers every day across a vast network of roadside cameras.

State and federal police forces want full-frontal images of vehicles, including the driver and front passenger, that are clear enough for identification purposes and usable as evidence in court.

"All vehicles passing through a fixed or mobile ANPR camera will have the data recorded and available for interrogation," CrimTrac told the Queensland TravelSafe inquiry into the use of ANPR for road safety.

"Existing camera applications, such as Safe-T-Cam, red light and speed cameras could be upgraded where necessary to provide constant live streaming to a central database.

"National connectivity would be achieved through secure digital networks for fixed cameras. Law enforcement agencies would also use mobile units."

David Vaile, executive director of the University of NSW's Cyberspace Law and Policy Centre, warned that the ANPR "could become the next Access Card".

"As a public surveillance system that could be linked to facial recognition, this has enough technology behind it to impinge on everybody's daily life," Mr Vaile said.

"CrimTrac has told us there will be 5000 cameras around the country, overwhelmingly in populated areas, taking some 70 million photos every day.

"There'll be maybe 1000 cameras in downtown Sydney, close to that number in Melbourne, perhaps 100 or so in Brisbane.

"If you use the main roads, you're likely to be snapped several times a day, and all those photos and any related data will be held by CrimTrac for up to five years."

Mr Vaile said it was false to represent the proposal as number plate recognition: "It's a photograph-all-drivers system."

At present, there are an estimated 300 fixed ANPR cameras and 100 mobile units in Australia.

CrimTrac is due to hand a $2.2 million scoping study for an integrated ANPR to the Minister for Home Affairs, Bob Debus, and the Ministerial Council for Police and Emergency Management in November.

According to a privacy consultation paper issued in June, all ANPR data collected would be made available to participating agencies in real time, and retained for five years for future investigations.

The national system would consist of "sightings data from all cameras in all jurisdictions of all vehicles that pass the camera points".

CrimTrac proposes siting fixed cameras at state border crossings, on main roads, in city centres and around infrastructure such as ports.

CrimTrac ANPR program manager Darren Booy said road transport, police and national security agencies had agreed images were needed for certain vehicle sightings.

"At times, police might not know that a vehicle is stolen or wanted in connection with a crime such as armed robbery until some time after the event," he said.

"Therefore, there's a requirement to capture all vehicle sightings and make those images available for analysis and data matching either immediately or at a later time."

Mr Booy said no decision had been made on the period for which images would be kept.

Images would be retained in cases where a vehicle was on a hot list of stolen or unregistered cars, or in cases involving unlicensed drivers or people wanted by police.

"Police and road authorities are already using ANPR in Australia, albeit on a small scale," Mr Booy said.

"Its use is growing, and the technology offers wide benefits in the spheres of road safety, criminal investigation and national security.

"We do see opportunities to upgrade existing systems into a high-quality infrastructure, and provide national capabilities at a lower overall cost."

Mr Booy said CrimTrac had looked at concerns on the accuracy and reliability of ANPR technology.

"It's important to recognise that existing local systems are quite disparate, with different standards not only in relation to data accuracy, but also the management of hot lists," he said.

"Drawing on experiences in Britain (where there is blanket ANPR surveillance), we are proposing a framework that overcomes a lot of those issues."

Should the state and federal ministers agree on a nationwide system, planning and building it would take a number of years to complete, Mr Booy said.

Meanwhile, the Queensland Government's TravelSafe report into ANPR suggests there are limited road safety benefits compared with the costs involved.

A VicRoads and Victoria Police trial had encountered problems with the accuracy and timeliness of information.

"There may be missing or incomplete fields in data sets, which means the software may flag a vehicle that is legitimately registered," VicRoads chief executive Gary Liddle said.

"Delayed payments could also mean a vehicle identified as unregistered is incorrectly flagged by the system."

The TravelSafe committee recommended that data relating to vehicles not found to be committing an offence should be "cleansed nightly to minimise the possibility of security breaches".

Reference:

http://www.australianit.news.com.au/...-15306,00.html

[xtremerus]

Big Brother at work, AGAIN.
All motorists are treated as criminals, AGAIN.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

Big Brother at work, AGAIN.
All motorists are treated as criminals, AGAIN.

Hey! Speed cameras make the roads safer remember!

Pfft, I'm on my Ls and I'm sick of hearing this crap. We might not be as bad as what England has it like, but we'll get there soon Fev,.

Soon our speed cameras will be proving a 1920x1080 full HD resolution video haha.

[Fev]

atleast its not as bad as england yet

[GORDZ]

I guess it's like they say... obey the law or steal someone elses plates

[AusM]

At least it's not illegal to drive with a balaclava on yet!

[FPVF6X201]

Originally Posted by PFdesign

At least it's not illegal to drive with a balaclava on yet!

Or a front number plate obscured by mud (accidently of course) :

[snappy]

Originally Posted by FPVwannabe

Or a front number plate obscured by mud (accidently of course) :

I 95% sure you are mistaken

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by PFdesign

At least it's not illegal to drive with a balaclava on yet!

Funnily enough I actually own one LOL. I don't think I should try it next time i drive though.

[Darkr]

Originally Posted by PFdesign

At least it's not illegal to drive with a balaclava on yet!

My mate had his house raided becasue they thought he was a terrorist when he did this on the way to a costume party....

Someone called the police as they felt 'threatened'... sigh.

Edit: Just to add to the speeding debate, yes I agree if you get caught, wear it don't argue with the police, they are doing the job, you are in the wrong, deal with it.

But on the other hand, the way speed is delt with in this country is rediculous, it's a crime only second to murder though realistic statistics show that it is no where near as bad as a cause of accidents as lack of driver skill and concentration. It's really really really over played.

The national party (?I think?) in the recent WA election's promise wanted to abolish speed camera's due to speed being such a low cause of accedent, citing an unrealeased police document. But noooo that would lose them too much money!

Cars get safer, speed limits come down. : More idiots?

[woteva]

Not many of you seem to realise that these cameras are intended to snap ALL motorists, not just those over the limit.

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by woteva

Not many of you seem to realise that these cameras are intended to snap ALL motorists, not just those over the limit.

Actually, they're not snapping at all, but rather providing real-time video feed. As I said in an earlier post, it's a slippery slope... people take privacy for granted and make very little complaint when it's gradually stripped away.

It may be an extreme example, but look at Europe pre-WWII. The Nazis used nationality info from government census data to target 'criminals' for their work and extermination camps.

The amount of data available for each person today is far, far greater. Your spending habits, movements, even your telephone conversations (just look at the recent US wire tapping) - all this data and more is out there.

[Biggav]

have had passengers in my car all wearing racing helmets before used to get the most stangest looks from other people in waiting cars haha

[Fairlane]

Got my first speed camera fine in the mail today very ****ed off. 76 in a 60 zone (which i doubt i was doing about 71 indicated, so probably even less again, when flash went). Beautiful 4 lane dual carriageway with no interruptions and only a 60 zone... very homo. Ruined my perfect driving record. Nice way to end my interstate excursion to buy a house in QLD, Since ive left QLD it appears to have turned into Victoria, those bloody white Mercedes vans everywhere, i really dont know how the Victorians keep there licences at all.

Looks like its only going to gets worse from that article- time v distance calculations, the works. Travelsafe commitee, who pays these poofters. Anyone now how hard it is to fit James Bond style revolving number plates ?

[Geez Louise]

Don't Speed...don't get caught! Simple really! If you speed..cop the fine and be done with it...no use cryin..do the crime..pay the fine!

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by Geez Louise

Don't Speed...don't get caught! Simple really! If you speed..cop the fine and be done with it...no use cryin..do the crime..pay the fine!

No.. your right Speed cameras are 100% accurate

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by Geez Louise

Don't Speed...don't get caught! Simple really! If you speed..cop the fine and be done with it...no use cryin..do the crime..pay the fine!

The problem is it's a very slippery slope...

Today, speeding motorists;
In future... who knows?

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by Geez Louise

Don't Speed...don't get caught! Simple really! If you speed..cop the fine and be done with it...no use cryin..do the crime..pay the fine!

Its quite easy to go 3km/h over the limit by accident, especially in Dad's car which you really have to put the boot in to get moving up hills, holding down the accelerator the slighest bit more than usual will also get you there in about a minute if that without you even realising.

Its better them being not so tight-arsed on the speeding fines than me not looking at the road but at my speedo isn't it?

Originally Posted by azaxr8

soon we wont have cars. i hope you have your walking boots cause thats all the government will give us.

The speed cameras will then be placed on the pathway, if anyone goes over 5km/h which is the average walking pace then you get fined from the police, if your walking boots squeak then you get defected from VicPathways or the Pathway Traffic Authority (In other states) or if they leave rubber on the pathway you get fined by the Environmental Pathway Authority.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 90sFTW

The speed cameras will then be placed on the pathway, if anyone goes over 5km/h which is the average walking pace then you get fined from the police, if your walking boots squeak then you get defected from VicPathways or the Pathway Traffic Authority (In other states) or if they leave rubber on the pathway you get fined by the Environmental Pathway Authority.

And they will have pathway emissions testing equipment, if you have not changed your socks and your feet smell, a fine from the EPA for noxious gas emissions (for gods sake don't fart).

Seriously, I have two major concerns with this.

1 Cost of this infrastracture compared to benefit to the community. Could those funds be better utilised with more police presence which has a proactive effect of crime prevention rather than reactive in catching the guilty bugger after the crime has been commited. I have always believed prevention is better than prosecution. I have always been against speed cameras as they have negated the need for extra police in order tocatch speeders. A cop is better than a camera every time as the cop with a radar can also handle unsafe driving, defective vehicles and respond to other crimes if required, a camera can't.

2 Security of the data, no computer, no matter how advanced is hack proof. What guarantee do the public have that this information will not fall ino the wrong hands. Imagine the system designed to catch the crooks becomes their most valuable tool in surveilance of future targets. Think about it, by monitoring a strategic camera, the bad guys can learn the travel habits of all the residents in an area, therefore knowing which houses to break into and when. Sounds far fetched I know, but not impossible when you think the smarter the system becomes, the smarter the crooks become.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Geez Louise

Don't Speed...don't get caught! Simple really! If you speed..cop the fine and be done with it...no use cryin..do the crime..pay the fine!

While it is simple and at least the tolerances are reasonable in NSW, speed cameras error. Speedos error. You can get pinged (particularly in Vic) when your speedo reads that you are on the correct speed limit.

While I should have done it long ago, I took my 14000km newish car out today with the GPS to judge what sort of error my speedo has. 60kph on my GPS read 63 on my speedo. If I'm pinged fairly then I'll cop it sweet. Had the speedo read 60 when I was doing 63, it would be a fine trap if I were to drive it in Vic. The ADR specifies a 10% error, so should the law makers.

[fmc351]

ADR 18/06 for those who care to look... http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache...n&ct=clnk&cd=1



Id be checking the GPS, or look for something effecting the speedo.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Should have kept reading the thread. The ADR does no such thing. Google ADR 18/06, go to s5.3 and ye shall find it for yourself.

Or use this link if you prefer... http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache...n&ct=clnk&cd=1

The ADR specifies an error tolerance, but forbids underestimation. That is, factory speedos can only exaggerate speeds.

Id be checking the GPS, or look for something effecting the speedo.

Why not make them 100% accurate and that's the end of that?

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by 90sFTW

Why not make them 100% accurate and that's the end of that?

Umm, possibly because absolute perfection is impossible in measuring devices. Note, I said absolute perfection.

However, the added cost of even a more accurate device will not be something youd want to pay for. As long as they dont read under, I dont see the problem with speedo errors. You get what you pay for.

What brand tension wrench do you own? Most people dont want to fork out $800 for a tension wrench, instead they buy the $60 jobbie from Bursons or whatever.

[S3SR]

*cough* revenue raising *cough* :thebirds:

thank god its not in QLD.... yet , although it almost impossible to speed while everyone does 50 and brakes for slight turns in the road

[tex]

I did my second 600k round trip for the week today, spotted two cameras (went past each twice) and both were set up half way along overtaking bays........... straight stretches of dual lane road designated for overtaking, in an otherwise single lane 110 highway. A highway peppered with caravan towing touros, B doubles and other speed 'limited' vehicles.

You can imagine the 'free for all' at every overtaking bay.................. the $$$$$$$$ would have been rolling in.

This week in total, Ive seen 5 speed cameras, EVERY one of them attached to an unmarked car 20 - 50m off the road in the bushes..........

You make your own mind up, but imo these points of revinue aquistion for the local Gov have well and truely past reasonable. It is plainly robbery, not targeted at so called black spots, and makes me furious.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by tex

It is plainly robbery, ....

Theres a gun to your head? You mean you dont expect a fine if you break the law? Its just a little law? The law doesnt apply where you think its silly?

Whats plainly clear is its an idiot tax.


I agree Louise, its easy done, and the adult thing to do is cop it sweet.

[Sapper]

I really do think that this is overkill and that there are bigger problems that I would want dealt with first. Example, the disempowering of teachers and parents, or the recent spikes in rates of stalking and of glassing attacks in Sydney recently.

I would rather see money spent on reducing violent crime.

[RG]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Theres a gun to your head? You mean you dont expect a fine if you break the law? Its just a little law? The law doesnt apply where you think its silly?

Whats plainly clear is its an idiot tax.


I agree Louise, its easy done, and the adult thing to do is cop it sweet.

Actually in Victoria it is technically robbery as the 3km/h rule is in direct contradiction to the national ADR stating a vehicles speedometer must only be within 10% of the actual speed traveled.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Russell

Actually in Victoria it is technically robbery as the 3km/h rule is in direct contradiction to the national ADR stating a vehicles speedometer must only be within 10% of the actual speed traveled.

Its been over and over and over in these forums a thousand times.

The speedo is not permitted to read lower, that is the speedo can read say 98 when doing 93, but not 98 when doing 103.

ADR 18/03 - Instrumentation
5.3 The speed indicated shall not be less than the true speed of the vehicle. .....

Thats for vehicles made from 2006. You can look for older ones if you like, but Im pretty sure the bold part has been true for eons.


In simpler terms, speedos must exaggerate speed, not underestimate them.

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Its been over and over and over in these forums a thousand times.

The speedo is not permitted to read lower, that is the speedo can read say 98 when doing 93, but not 98 when doing 103.
...
In simpler terms, speedos must exaggerate speed, not underestimate them.

My gripe is the 3km/h tolerance... Yes, speedos are supposed to overestimate - but do they?

How often are speedos recalibrated? How much effect does change in tyre pressure, ambient temp etc. have on the reading?

3km/h is way too low a tolerance.

If the cameras were really about safety, and reducing "carnage" on our roads... they'd have police patrolling - for everything, not just speeding.