Be prosecuted for illegal gas connection. Urgent help

Eaturbo · 08-03-2016, 07:57 PM

Need some urgent advice. I was getting $615 gas bills for hot water only for only 82 days. Made several complaints to real estate as its a rental and origin gas and told it was normal and stiff. Disconnected the metered gas and hooked up a 9kg gas bottle with a regulator and used all proper gas fittings and LPG thread tape. Department of natural resources and mines came around and seized everything and interviewed my wife and said that I will be prosecuted in a court of law. Now apparently I can perform any and all gas work on my bbq because it's a mobile device but doing the exact same work on the house is illegal with a max penalty of $20,000. There is nothing near the gas system warning people of the law and possible penalty.

They bullied and intimidated my wife as I was at work and they never asked for consent to perform the interview. Can't believe such a simple mistake can be so serious with no attempt to educate the public or warn them of the danger. Not to mention that the exact same set up on my bbq with the same 9kg gas bottle is deamed safe even with an open flame and an igniter but the gas hot water system is illegal even though there is no naked flame even close.

GS608 · 08-03-2016, 08:02 PM

Cant contribute much but isnt the metered gas natural gas not LPG?

nstg8a · 08-03-2016, 08:13 PM

Get a lawyer. Pronto.

deesun · 08-03-2016, 08:16 PM

Although it is a rental if I were that concerned I would have got a second opinion on why it is such a high bill. That said I think get a lawyer.

FPV GTHO · 08-03-2016, 08:17 PM

Can't do anything really without licencing. I was told many years ago you needed to be a plumber to even change the valves in your taps. I dare say you can't change a switch without being an electrician either.

Makovic · 08-03-2016, 08:20 PM

Same thing happened in Bolivia.

US water companies took over Bolivian water supplies and increased the price several fold.

The companies bullied the Bolivian Govt into making any water collection illegal.

Peasants who caught water on their own roofs and used that were prosecuted.

Welcome to the New World.

cheap · 08-03-2016, 08:33 PM

Did you disconnect the meter from the gas grid or just disconnect the outlet pipe from the meter to the property?

bungarra · 08-03-2016, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheap

Did you disconnect the meter from the gas grid or just disconnect the outlet pipe from the meter to the property?

Doesn't matter, it is illegal in any state to connect or disconnect a gas service (portable appliances excepted) to a business or private property. There is also the fact that the stoves, hot water unit would require different regulators and valves for Propane, LNG etc to be safely operated.

This link shows the differences in service pressure and O2 to Gas ratios for LPG and LNG

Ask any professional who sells gas equipment.

http://www.elgas.com.au/blog/486-com...ethane-lng-cng

http://www.elgas.com.au/blog/474-con...gas-appliances

He needs a lawyer.

olfella · 08-03-2016, 08:44 PM

While it is an offence and all that, it sounds like someone has dobbed you in. If it were me, I would go and see the Dept and fall on my sword. Tell them like you did here, that you never knew it was an offence as you do your BBQ all the time, and the problems with the biil. They have ultimate discretion to go ahead or not and involving a lawyer just muddies the water and gets everyone off side.

Eaturbo · 08-03-2016, 09:09 PM

Thanks guys, it's metered LPG and to give you an idea the amount used to get a $615 bill is 3 1/2 45kg bottles. My last house I used 4 bottles a year so I've nearly used a whole years worth in 82 days. I disconnected the pipe from the meter to the house. They admitted that the owner has come around and taken a photo and reported me to the natural Resources. So even after me making repeat calls asking for help and to just put plumbing in place so I could connect 9kg bottles, the owner has got me in even bigger strife by reporting me. While I was on 9kg bottles I was getting 2 weeks out of a 9kg bottle that costs $15 to fill so $90 for 3 months. Big difference between $615 and $90. Think I might just plead for forgiveness and hope for a small fine. They have all the emails and evidence from my real estate and origin that I have tried to get a resolution with no sucess so they know it was not done lightly.

commodorenutt · 08-03-2016, 09:15 PM

Sounds like your landlord might be switching out the bottles himself for free gas & you're footing the bill....

Either that or you have an extremely nosey landlord who by sheer coincidence just happened to turn up at the wrong time - or maybe he was there to do another bottle swap?

Eaturbo · 08-03-2016, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

Sounds like your landlord might be switching out the bottles himself for free gas & you're footing the bill....

Either that or you have an extremely nosey landlord who by sheer coincidence just happened to turn up at the wrong time - or maybe he was there to do another bottle swap?

There never was bottles, it was metered from a central tank on the sub devision with underground pipes. I disconnected the pipe and fitted a regulator and pipe and 9kg bottle so I could control the costs. If he changed the bottle I would have run out as there is only one bottle. He just cracked the poops because I said I had sorted it myself so he must have driven past to check it out.

**Beastie** · 08-03-2016, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

Sounds like your landlord might be switching out the bottles himself for free gas & you're footing the bill....

Either that or you have an extremely nosey landlord who by sheer coincidence just happened to turn up at the wrong time - or maybe he was there to do another bottle swap?

Whilst I wouldn't have put it so bluntly, something doesn't add up here

My first thought was that you may have a leak somewhere and maybe your landlord is responsible for the repair, but then I thought, if you are using the same appliances in the same manner as the past 90 days and there is a massive difference / saving, then there would be no leak past the entry to the house - which leads to the actual meter or something else???

How long have you been there and how is your relationship with your landlord (prior to this event)?

**aussiblue** · 08-03-2016, 09:26 PM

The landlord might also have found his property/fire insurance void if he knew about it and did nothing. Not something I would condone.

Eaturbo · 08-03-2016, 09:33 PM

I understand all this now but surely a warning of the possible consequences if I failed to swap it back within 48 hours. What about the departments obligations to the public to educate the public and make people aware of the laws. They advertise on the TV about electricians and being a licensed electrician to undertake electrical work. They don't even put any signage at the gas point to make people aware that's it's illegal. Anybody here know that there's a difference between a bbq and the gas hot,water. What a bbq can't blow up and burn down the house but a gas hot,water can. BS

olfella · 08-03-2016, 09:39 PM

Save that argument for a later day as ignorance is not an excuse. You could say you were unaware at the time because of .... but dont get lost in a fight you will not win. It will only put them off side.

**aussiblue** · 08-03-2016, 09:48 PM

Quote:

I understand all this now but surely a warning of the possible consequences if I failed to swap it back within 48 hours. What about the departments obligations to the public to educate the public and make people aware of the laws.

The Landlord and his/her insurance would still be at risk even after you returned it the way it was; the connections and reconnections would have been made by someone without legal qualification.

Common sense usually stops people playing with GAS connections without the need for a public education program.

If you want to play unqualified illegal gasfitter, plumber or electrician do it with a property you own and where the you can take calculated risks with the lives of you and your family; the landlord cannot know what you have done and what risk it might or might not pose for future tenants or existing and future tradies. It might all be to Australian code /standards but if you went as far as to investigate the code requirements you would also know DYI was illegal.

This might sound overly harsh but I think would be totally ****ed off if this happened with a property I owned (no I am not a landlord so I can only speak in theory). I think I would be expecting an eviction notice next.

danzvtil · 08-03-2016, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaturbo

I understand all this now but surely a warning of the possible consequences if I failed to swap it back within 48 hours. What about the departments obligations to the public to educate the public and make people aware of the laws. They advertise on the TV about electricians and being a licensed electrician to undertake electrical work. They don't even put any signage at the gas point to make people aware that's it's illegal. Anybody here know that there's a difference between a bbq and the gas hot,water. What a bbq can't blow up and burn down the house but a gas hot,water can. BS

You're about to be rogered royally im afraid.

If I was the landlord, heres what im thinking
1-my tenant has disassembled gas piping installed by a qualified gas fitter
2-if my house burns down, my insurance wont cover it
3-i now have to PAY a qualified gas fitter to reconnect and provide the all clear to use the gas system in my house.
4-i have to pay the same gas fitter to inspect and give the all clear that the appliances run on the incorrect gas are not damaged in any way.

Natural gas and LPG are different, the appliances that run on each are not interchangeable, you are bloody lucky you didn't kill yourself or your family.

CJR09 · 08-03-2016, 10:11 PM

any insurance on the property and contents is null and void

you cant help stupid...

commodorenutt · 08-03-2016, 10:11 PM

The ignorance would be null & void - there's no warning stickers in meter boxes or on light switches warning homeowners that only a licenced electrician can fiddle with things. Likewise no need for stickers on fixed gas installations - it's pretty much a given.

I was under the impression from the alterations you did that you had 45kg bottles on the side of the house, which is common in areas where there's no NG.
Didn't realise it was a central tank branching off to multiple properties & meters.
Unfortunately that's well & truly more than a simple unscrew a reg from a 45kg bottle & into a 9kg one like I thought you were doing.

I think any person making the judgement will see the offence as well calculated, and dangerous, despite ignorance, so I'd be following olfella's advice & pleading forgiveness, and explain the reason for the tests, and the findings. But choose your words carefully so you don't get them offside.

Eaturbo · 08-03-2016, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiblue

The Landlord and his/her insurance would still be at risk even after you returned it the way it was; the connections and reconnections would have been made by someone without legal qualification.

Common sense usually stops people playing with GAS connections without the need for a public education program.

If you want to play unqualified illegal gasfitter, plumber or electrician do it with a property you own and where the you can take calculated risks with the lives of you and your family; the landlord cannot know what you have done and what risk it might or might not pose for future tenants or existing and future tradies. It might all be to Australian code /standards but if you went as far as to investigate the code requirements you would also know DYI was illegal.

This might sound overly harsh but I think would be totally ****ed off if this happened with a property I owned (no I am not a landlord so I can only speak in theory). I think I would be expecting an eviction notice next.

Common sense hey, well than common sense would have you believe that playing with a bbq is illegal which its not. You explain to me why a bbq and a house connected to the same 9kg bottles using the same regulator and hose is different. It's easy to sit there and say you know it's different when you have the previous info informing you indifferent. If I was aware that it was illegal than I would not have done it.

olfella · 08-03-2016, 10:13 PM

In this situation it is LPG to LPG... other than that you are spot on.

commodorenutt · 08-03-2016, 10:14 PM

The key words are "fixed installation"

A BBQ is portable - and you can play with them.

Pipes running into a house, feeding appliances, are fixed - you can't touch them.

Same with power. You can legally run your shed off an extension lead and multiple power boards yourself. But as soon as the installation becomes fixed - ie hardwired off the house or from the meter box, you must be licenced to do the work.

CJR09 · 08-03-2016, 10:17 PM

bbq's are outdoor appliances only to be used in well vented areas - all of the pipework is exposed so can fairly easily tell its state at any given time

regulators for bbq's and mains supply and/or bottle station supply are very different - all you are doing here is highlighting your ignorance

Eaturbo · 08-03-2016, 10:19 PM

I've paid for the gas to be swapped over by a licenced gas fitter. A few of you seam to be missing the point. Do you think it ok to rip someone off so bad that they can't afford to pay the bill. Do you think that even after asking for help from two parties that it's ok to rip someone off. I understand I did wrong but fining someone who can't afford a $600 bill even after they have tried to do everything I thought I could is not helping me. It seams like everyone can ignore you and make you wear the bills and you have no recourse. No damage was done and they even admitted that the work I did was fine, it's not the work I did but the fact I'm not licensed.

**aussiblue** · 08-03-2016, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Common sense hey, well than common sense would have you believe that playing with a bbq is illegal which its not. You explain to me why a bbq and a house connected to the same 9kg bottles using the same regulator and hose is different. It's easy to sit there and say you know it's different when you have the previous info informing you indifferent. If I was aware that it was illegal than I would not have done it.

GAS can be both explosive and poisonous so even doing something to an outdoor BBQ I would have fully researched all the safety requirement before turning a spanner.

Eaturbo · 08-03-2016, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJR09

bbq's are outdoor appliances only to be used in well vented areas - all of the pipework is exposed so can fairly easily tell its state at any given time

regulators for bbq's and mains supply and/or bottle station supply are very different - all you are doing here is highlighting your ignorance

Thanks for stating the obvious, and no they are not very differnt, hence the reason the inspector said what I have used is fine but I am still not licenced. Exactly the same parts are used to connect the bbq and the house to bottles. The question is not the quality of work or what I used but simply that is unlicensed gas fitting.

Eaturbo · 08-03-2016, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiblue

GAS can be both explosive and poisonous so even doing something to an outdoor BBQ I would have fully researched all the safety requirement before turning a spanner.

That's right and so would I, hence why I always use LPG gas thread tape which is different to normal thread tape. The thing is to the average none mechanical minded person which is allowed to perform maintence on his BBQ would not recognise the requirements to stop in his tracks to perform the exact same work to his house.

Eaturbo · 08-03-2016, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

The key words are "fixed installation"

A BBQ is portable - and you can play with them.

Pipes running into a house, feeding appliances, are fixed - you can't touch them.

Same with power. You can legally run your shed off an extension lead and multiple power boards yourself. But as soon as the installation becomes fixed - ie hardwired off the house or from the meter box, you must be licenced to do the work.

This is right but prior to me reading all the info since the incident I was not aware of the difference. An extension lead to a shed is nothing like running proper wiring to a shed. When you compare that the exact same components are used on a BBQ and to connect either 9kg or 45 kg bottles to a house. Anyway it's easy to say that everybody should know. I have asked several people being close to 20 and none of them knew that you couldn't work on or replace a gas pipe on a house. So you must all be just be very smart and well informed. Funny when I spoke to some cattle farmers they said yeah like we can get a plumber to drive 4 hours out into the bush to change a gas hose, they said good luck getting farmers to do that.

**aussiblue** · 08-03-2016, 10:37 PM

Quote:

That's right and so would I, hence why I always use LPG gas thread tape which is different to normal thread tape. The thing is to the average none mechanical minded person which is allowed to perform maintence on his BBQ would not recognise the requirements to stop in his tracks to perform the exact same work to his house.

And if you found out/knew that much I would expect you would also have stumbled over the legalities of DYI. I must admit I used to be lucky and a gasfitter/electrician/plumber behind me who was happy to instruct and oversee me on minor jobs (e.g the annual job of replacing the diaphragm in a C&M instantaneous gas heater) inspect the work after and give me a receipt to say he had done it. He has long since moved away (and the C&M is at the tip) so now I pay through the nose for a professional. And yes; I still have a variety of gas leak detectors which means I can at least sometimes save some money if there is a leak by finding it before the gas pro arrives - and then gives me the 3rd degree about why I have these tools (most are also good for finding car air con gas leaks too so that is OK too).