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Old 07-11-2019, 08:16 PM   #61
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

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Originally Posted by Bossxr8 View Post
Market is really struggling atm. 19th straight month of decline. And it's dropping in every area, private, fleet and government.
This is actually a good thing, if you think about it. Almost every single car is now imported and so declining sales means a lesser hit on Australia's balance of payments. If our exports (coal, gas, ore, housing, holidays, university and public school placements) hold up, that bodes well for a trade surplus.

Even better news: the biggest % increase is RAM at 140%, that's the car that's modified on an Australian production line!
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:36 PM   #62
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

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I know weíve moved on, but to quote Jimmy Carr, ďI wish I could let it go but I just canítĒ, the census in 2016 reported that the total number of people reported as being born in a country classified as Asian is as 10.3%, and the total number of people reported as being born overseas is 26%. That includes England who account for over 30% of that total alone.

Like I said, immigration is concentrated into the cities. Move out of them and you get a much more accurate picture. It doesnít account for Toyotaís dominance. They just have a crazy broad range that do what they do well enough to keep people coming back.
But almost 3 quarters of the population live in metro areas so wouldn't they be more reflective of Australia? If you live regional, which is the minority, of course you're not going to see many immigrants. You're not accounting for the second generations with asian backgrounds either.

I do agree though that its not the reason Toyota are dominant. The broad range along with their reliability rep is what keeps them going strong.
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Old 07-11-2019, 11:13 PM   #63
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

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But almost 3 quarters of the population live in metro areas so wouldn't they be more reflective of Australia? If you live regional, which is the minority, of course you're not going to see many immigrants. You're not accounting for the second generations with asian backgrounds either.

I do agree though that its not the reason Toyota are dominant. The broad range along with their reliability rep is what keeps them going strong.
Correct, and to clarify, im not saying the migrant population is responsible for Toyota's situation, im saying that they will continue to bolster Toyota's position as they are familiar with the brand.

I worked in Toyota dealerships for over a decade as a pre delivery detailer and I can assure you as one of the few people who handled every sale that went out, Asian names accounted for a large % of them and along with fleet sales made up well over half of total sales and that was 20yrs ago, I think it would be fair to say their numbers have grown considerably and so too have Toyota's and again, im not saying its the sole reason or even the main reason, but it stands to reason that it would play a part.
You don't need census stats to come to tat conclusion, you just need common sense. and a watchful eye.
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:26 AM   #64
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

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I worked in Toyota dealerships for over a decade as a pre delivery detailer and I can assure you as one of the few people who handled every sale that went out, Asian names accounted for a large % of them and along with fleet sales made up well over half of total sales and that was 20yrs ago, I think it would be fair to say their numbers have grown considerably and so too have Toyota's and again, im not saying its the sole reason or even the main reason, but it stands to reason that it would play a part.
You don't need census stats to come to tat conclusion, you just need common sense. and a watchful eye.
Just curious and not meaning to interrogate but, how many dealerships are
we talking about, were they in the same city state or all over the place?

I'm trying to get a sense of whether this is a cluster effect or is your assertion
something that can actually be applied universally across all Australia dealerships..

We already know that Toyota is very strong in commercial fleet sales and have been
so for a very long time.

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Old 08-11-2019, 07:40 AM   #65
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Just curious and not meaning to interrogate but, how many dealerships are
we talking about, were they in the same city state or all over the place?

I'm trying to get a sense of whether this is a cluster effect or is your assertion
something that can actually be applied universally across all Australia dealerships..

We already know that Toyota is very strong in commercial fleet sales and have been
so for a very long time.
No worries, I wouldn't offer that info if I wasn't prepared to elaborate, I've nothing to hide.
I started off with CMI in the 90's, CMI we're your standard run of the mill showroom on West TCE Adelaide, a family run business owned by the Crawford brothers, Today it is a massive outfit which takes up the best part of half a city block and is impressive to say the least, you can stand on West TCE and watch your car being serviced through the wall of glass.
I then moved away to work with my Brother in Western Sydney for a while before returning to Adelaide where I started with what then was called Salisbury Toyota and is now part of the Peter Kittle group, in my time it was again a family run operation spread over about a 5acre block, Today it's twice the size and has been completely revamped.
There is no Ford or any other brand of Dealership in Adelaide which even come close to these outfits.
I also spent time in rural SA where my Wife grew up, 20 years ago it had a Nissan, Mitsubishi, Holden and Ford dealers, Nissan and Mitsubishi disappeared overnight, Holden, one of the first licensed dealers in the country folded and the owner of the Ford dealer bought the Holden premises and rebranded his entire outfit Toyota.

Now whilst you may say that's all SA and obviously a cluster thing, I'd say the likelihood of all that happening in one small area is just as 'unlikely' as not every Immigrant or farmer lives in SA.
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Old 08-11-2019, 08:18 AM   #66
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

Now that I've given a snapshot of my history in the motor industry, perhaps some of those who share an alternative view would like to offer up theirs so we can get an idea of where their opinions are coming from.

Whilst I'll admit I've been out of the loop for a few years now, I was amongst it when they we're a mid pack contender and watched first hand the rise to the dominant force they are today, where they sit today does not surprise me one bit.
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Old 08-11-2019, 10:37 AM   #67
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Middle Eastern people are not well represented, in the last census the top 6 places of birth was rounded out by the Phillipines at 1%. Chinese came in at number 4 at 2.2%, India at 5 with 1.9%. People think that because they live in the cities (I donít know where you live so not directed at you) where immigrants tend to settle thatís its reflective of the entire country, when that is far from true.

Anyway, Fords range apart from Ranger and Mustang is toast, and I canít see that in anyway being a positive. I drive past their dealership now and apart from Mustang there is nothing in there that grabs me anymore, and Iím a Ford bloke.
I am going to utter some blasphemy here, by my own standards. I would love a Ranger and a Mustang but having bought a new 2015 Kuga for my wife, I would be happy to look at a new Escape. Butt ugly but great SUV. There. I said it.

I hope my ZD Fairlane does not read this thread...
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Old 08-11-2019, 10:42 AM   #68
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With the greatest of respect Bent_8, unless you drive across all of Australia regularly, all you see is what's around the bubble you travel in....lets stick to cars please.
But B8's comments relate directly to the subject of this thread. We don't get warned off other subjective variables, why this one???
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Old 08-11-2019, 10:53 AM   #69
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But B8's comments relate directly to the subject of this thread. We don't get warned off other subjective variables, why this one???
I dont have a problem with what he said, it's a fair comment, but then how many polls encompass every demographic, it's only ever a small sample size In reality, but having said that, it would be naive to think that sample is a complete misrepresentation, it's got to be worth something.

It's not like I walked into Chinatown and asked who likes rice..

At the end of the day I just wanted to share some of my beliefs based on real world experiences, my comments aren't based on emotion or what I hope happens.
I spend everyday In traffic and as an unbiased motoring enthusiast I look at everything I see and appreciate it for what it is.
Suggestions are that buyers of certain brands will swing if the carrot is big enough, I've seen certain people knock back a particular car just because the wrong digits appeared in the VIN, these people won't drop 60k on an unknown when they know what they get from their safe place.
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Old 08-11-2019, 11:20 AM   #70
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

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Originally Posted by BENT_8 View Post
Now that I've given a snapshot of my history in the motor industry, perhaps some of those who share an alternative view would like to offer up theirs so we can get an idea of where their opinions are coming from.

Whilst I'll admit I've been out of the loop for a few years now, I was amongst it when they we're a mid pack contender and watched first hand the rise to the dominant force they are today, where they sit today does not surprise me one bit.
Bent,
My intention was not to critisize here, it is you who is claiming to have first
hand knowledge on Toyota sales.
Let's face it, your info is twenty years stale and based on Adelaide/South Australian sales data
but we know that South Australia makes up just over seven percent of Australia's population

Is it wise to assume your observations are valid across the rest of Australia's other 24 million people?

I make no such claims to know specific sales demographics for Ford or Toyota
but express optimism that given new, different vehicles, Ford will stand a better
chance of attracting more of Toyota's SUV sales traffic. I still can't work out whether
you're dismissal of that is because you think that those sales will have to come from
fleet sales or from high series retail buyers that mostly Asian descent..


Quote:
Suggestions are that buyers of certain brands will swing if the carrot is big enough, I've seen certain people knock back a particular car just because the wrong digits appeared in the VIN, these people won't drop 60k on an unknown when they know what they get from their safe place.
It's not about those who will never change, it's about thost that are willing to look around..

I'm simply thinking that there's a whole bunch of dispossessed performance buyers out there
who have settled for more mundane vehicles until something better to them is offered
that is spurred on by the outcry that came when the Ranger Raptor was revealled
and the Everest basically followed it with a two litre diesel as the apex of performance.
Surely from there, the only way is up.....even a three litre V6 diesel would be a big help.

Quote:
It's not like I walked into Chinatown and asked who likes rice..
More like you worked in a Chinese/ Asian takeaway and lots of folks love that....

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Old 08-11-2019, 11:40 AM   #71
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But B8's comments relate directly to the subject of this thread. We don't get warned off other subjective variables, why this one???
It wasn't meant as a warning as Iím not a moderator and have no right to make such a demand. The thing is comments such as those relate to the socio-economic environment you are directly situated in. Now Bent-8 divulged his background and reasons for his opinion to which I thank him.

Now in my case, I live in an area where similar people of the differing racial backgrounds described by Bent-8 live however the closest they come to buying a Toyota is a Lexus.
BMW, MB, Audi, LR and Porsche are the chosen brands of these more affluent buyers and thatís what Iíve seen in the part of Melbourne I live in. So thatís my bubble and what I see.

Toyotaís success starts with having a product or two in almost every segment from small car to van and everything in between. You can only dominate the overall market if you have the biggest product range. It has a reputation for reliable products and while less so today still has a massive bank of credit to trade off before it could start to suffer. When times are financially tough, people go safe, cut out the luxury items and stick to what they know or have been told repeatedly.

Ford has proven it can compete with Toyota on certain products and to be honest when given an international budget can develop a product easily as good as anyone else. Ford doesnít want to match Toyotaís sales methods in certain segments as has been shown by not bothering with base models and bottom rung pricing which Toyota is also slowly shifting away from allowing brands like Kia to step in. Therefore, Ford has decided it isnít going for market leadership, canít anyway without a full product range and so it will be very interesting to see what comes with the new updates and future products that jpd80 is alluding to.
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Old 08-11-2019, 11:59 AM   #72
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It wasn't meant as a warning as Iím not a moderator and have no right to make such a demand. The thing is comments such as those relate to the socio-economic environment you are directly situated in. Now Bent-8 divulged his background and reasons for his opinion to which I thank him.

Now in my case, I live in an area where similar people of the differing racial backgrounds described by Bent-8 live however the closest they come to buying a Toyota is a Lexus.
BMW, MB, Audi, LR and Porsche are the chosen brands of these more affluent buyers and thatís what Iíve seen in the part of Melbourne I live in. So thatís my bubble and what I see.

Toyotaís success starts with having a product or two in almost every segment from small car to van and everything in between. You can only dominate the overall market if you have the biggest product range. It has a reputation for reliable products and while less so today still has a massive bank of credit to trade off before it could start to suffer. When times are financially tough, people go safe, cut out the luxury items and stick to what they know or have been told repeatedly.

Ford has proven it can compete with Toyota on certain products and to be honest when given an international budget can develop a product easily as good as anyone else. Ford doesnít want to match Toyotaís sales methods in certain segments as has been shown by not bothering with base models and bottom rung pricing which Toyota is also slowly shifting away from allowing brands like Kia to step in. Therefore, Ford has decided it isnít going for market leadership, canít anyway without a full product range and so it will be very interesting to see what comes with the new updates and future products that jpd80 is alluding to.
Ford needs to decouple us from products that aren't working and start
looking at higher value products that certain buyers would lust after.

A three litre V6 diesel in Ranger and Everest would be a great start, maybe a
three Litre Ecoboost option for the Raptor and a HP Everest would give Jeep
Grand Cherokee SRT a kick in the guts. Do the simple obvious things but also
look at how much aftermarket optioning goes on with pimped up Rangers.

If Ford is watching, they need to be thinking seriously about Bronco for our market,
I would sooner they double down with that than keep selling over priced three
cylinder Foucs / Escape .....
there's another one, the Baby Bronco will be Escape sized and more chunky,
a much better fit than Ford soft almost phallic Euro styling...
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:06 PM   #73
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I still can't work out whether
you're dismissal of that is because you think that those sales will have to come from
fleet sales or from high series retail buyers that mostly Asian descent..

It's not about those who will never change, it's about thost that are willing to look around..
Neither, I think the idea that buyers will venture away from a brand which provides great customer service, solid reliability in 99% of cases and exceptional resale value, and drop 40-70k on an unknown, especially when they read mainly negative feedback in media and in online reviews, is unlikely.
Toyota buyers don't shop for performance, they shop for tried and proven which is why they are life long repeat customers.
We all joke about boring drivers driving boring white goods, but that white goods manufacturer is flogging more in a month than others In a qtr, unless you consider every one of those buyers as idiots, and just like my comments being only relevant to my bubble, you don't know all 16k to judge, I'd say Toyota have a sound model.
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:24 PM   #74
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Oh dear...

If you don't like what someone has said then ignore it and move on. Any further name calling will be dealt with - and that includes 'pal' BENT_8.

On the other hand, BENT_8 is entitled to his opinion. Many members on here have complained about him not being clear enough in his posts but it seems that now that he is being clear people want to still attack him.

I'll give everyone some advice - if you ignore his posts that you consider trolling he has nothing to respond to. Keep responding and he will keep replying...
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:38 PM   #75
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A three litre V6 diesel in Ranger and Everest would be a great start, maybe a
three Litre Ecoboost option for the Raptor and a HP Everest would give Jeep
Grand Cherokee SRT a kick in the guts. Do the simple obvious things but also
look at how much aftermarket optioning goes on with pimped up Rangers.

If Ford is watching, they need to be thinking seriously about Bronco for our market,
I would sooner they double down with that than keep selling over priced three
cylinder Foucs / Escape .....
there's another one, the Baby Bronco will be Escape sized and more chunky,
a much better fit than Ford soft almost phallic Euro styling...
See, I read this and I scratch my head, it wasn't that long ago that certain Ford stalwarts told us that the ecoblue 2.0l with twin blowers was the way of the future and the old 'no replacement for displacement' mantra was so yesteryear and we had to get with the times, now you, who I give more credence to than all the others combined, suggest Ford needs a 3.0l V6 for Ranger and Raptor...go figure, I agree.

This is where Ford shoots itself in the foot, it doesn't ask its fan base what it wants/likes/needs, it says here, have this and then goes about trying to convince you why they know better.
Toyota on the other hand just give their followers what they know, its the basis of their business model, tried and proven tech. Sure they get it wrong sometimes, and the Hilux is an obvious example, but its not like the Japanese to let it fester, they'll fix it and order will be restored, it wont be a case of still blowing head gaskets a decade later despite an obvious easy fix right in front of them.

I remember when they said they didn't want to be known as the V8 car company, what, they'd rather be the milk carton hair dryer car company...that's so 90's Nissan.
****, even milk comes in 3l these days..

I honestly think we see the end goal very similarly mate, only from different ends of the spectrum.
You see hope and optimism and suggest we wait and see, I see frustration and say get the **** on with it then.
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:53 PM   #76
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

There is no replacement for displacement.

That includes the housing of the electric motor
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:57 PM   #77
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This is where Ford shoots itself in the foot, it doesn't ask its fan base what it wants/likes/needs, it says here, have this and then goes about trying to convince you why they know better.
It's been an eyebrow-raising time really across many companies. The PC version of "Star Wars", the Gillette ads in the US shaming their core customers

You'd think Marketing 101 would have a lecture on "Don't go out to challenge and confront your sales demographic", but no.... Of course in the car market a lot of it is driven by top-down Govt regulations on emissions or safety, but the point is, that is not how a free market works. Interesting times.
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:05 PM   #78
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If Ford is watching, they need to be thinking seriously about Bronco for our market,
I recon it would flop too, much like the 2 door Prado and FJ Cruiser which have been dropped now.

IMO this would succeed: if its priced correctly
https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/ford-focus-ute

But how long?
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:08 PM   #79
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You see hope and optimism and suggest we wait and see, I see frustration and say get the **** on with it then.
yep too many new Fords seem to arrive too late
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:42 PM   #80
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

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Keep in mind that the biggest draw card Everest has is a 2.0 diesel and ten speed auto.
A lot of buyers that Ford is trying to attract from say, Toyota are still capacity centric
and probably expect a three litre engine, so that's probably the first change needed.
Right products, right segments.

Economy pressure is more discreet than people stop buying sports cars, it might be a
litmus test but the pressure is not across all people, it's like the tight budget households
are going with the Koreans instead of Japanese but as Bent said, loyal buyers seem to be
sticking in the over thirty thousand dollar segments. That should be encouraging to Toyota
and other manufacturers that they can indeed do more in those segments.

^^^^ And this is what I was alluding to in earlier posts, there's a lot of room for someone
like Ford to offer more in the upper segments and get good gains there rather than trying to
compete with Corolla and the like, those will continue to be cannon fodder for the Koreans.

I know that Bent can't see that happening because until Ford has the products to challenge,
then it's just a theoretical conversation, the next step is for Ford to man up and give Aussie
buyers more of that they crave....
They really should have got Explorer and Bronco in RHD. They keep talking about being a mostly SUV company, but then limit those products to North America. It's stupid. One Ford my ****.

And I can't understand why they didn't go for the Puma here. I'd assume they couldn't get it at a reasonable cost. Because to me it is the perfect Mazda CX-3 competitor, and it's already RHD. Much better than that junk Ecosport. Then again maybe they will be satisfied with future Ecosport, which should make it competitive again. The Indians who developed it completely misread the markets it was to sell in. It might be good for third world countries, but not here. Although suprisingly it sells pretty well in the US which is a mystery to me. Although they didn't get the original pre-facelift model.
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Old 08-11-2019, 05:25 PM   #81
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I recon it would flop too, much like the 2 door Prado and FJ Cruiser which have been dropped now.

IMO this would succeed: if its priced correctly
https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/ford-focus-ute

But how long?
You do realise that Bronco is being developed in two door and four door models....
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Old 08-11-2019, 05:46 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by BENT_8 View Post
I honestly think we see the end goal very similarly mate, only from different ends of the spectrum.
You see hope and optimism and suggest we wait and see, I see frustration and say get the **** on with it then.
True and this is why I don't resort to name calling, Ford has a lot to do to convince buyers
to even consider future purchases let alone commit to one.... but what really gives me hope
is the way Ranger was developed with Aussie market in mind, yes they transitioned their
Falcon and Territory buyers where the Holden guys obviously walked away.

Quote:
See, I read this and I scratch my head, it wasn't that long ago that certain Ford stalwarts told us that the ecoblue 2.0l with twin blowers was the way of the future and the old 'no replacement for displacement' mantra was so yesteryear and we had to get with the times, now you, who I give more credence to than all the others combined, suggest Ford needs a 3.0l V6 for Ranger and Raptor...go figure, I agree.
OK, I can see how Ford's power train policy can be confusing, even to me.

Ford adopted a policy of wanting to move its Ranger and Everest buyers away from the
Puma 3.2 Diesel because, the new Powerstroke V6 was not available to Gen 1 T6 Ranger.
Those decisions were made years before, the new Panther diesels would replace the
older, larger I-4 and I-5 Puma diesels. No through development of V6 for Gen 1 T6.
was why the American only got a four cylinder EB engine, Ford was already deep in
developing next Gen T6 back in 2016.

What Ford didn't expect was the major backlash to Ranger Raptor, the regular Ranger
buyers gladly accepted the new more efficient two litre diesel. There's still a big market
there that Ford can capitalise on with larger more powerful engines, Gen two T6 brings
a lot of changes and seems to be now accepting that Aussie buyers like capacity, those
six cylinder engines... that's a big win and why I have a lot of confidence that Ford has
turned a corner, not that we will see it until new products arrive.

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Old 08-11-2019, 06:53 PM   #83
BENT_8
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

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Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post

What Ford didn't expect was the major backlash to Ranger Raptor, the regular Ranger
buyers gladly accepted the new more efficient two litre diesel. There's still a big market
there that Ford can capitalise on with larger more powerful engines, Gen two T6 brings
a lot of changes and seems to be now accepting that Aussie buyers like capacity, those
six cylinder engines... that's a big win and why I have a lot of confidence that Ford has
turned a corner, not that we will see it until new products arrive.
Yeah, to be fair im not really dirty on Ford for bringing the 2.0l to market, its probably a bloody good bit of kit, but as Simon has suggested, it isn't necessarily more efficient at all.
What annoys me more than anything is the vocal members on here who suggested that bigger isn't better and that people should accept that a 2.0l is good enough.

Guys like trev copped a hammering for suggesting that larger capacity has a place where towing and durability is concerned.

If the point of the exercise is to promote the new product then they should just say so, don't dismiss opinion to the contrary just because it doesn't suit the desired narrative.
Its just another example of 'don't worry about what you think you need, just accept what we think you need'.
Its clearly an ingrained attitude.
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:02 PM   #84
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

This video shows why Ford got it wrong with the 2.0 Ranger.

Yes I know this is not what they are built for, and not what they are designed for, but I think a lot of you know where I am coming from.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz_twBApgZY
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:15 PM   #85
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by BENT_8 View Post
What annoys me more than anything is the vocal members on here who suggested that bigger isn't better and that people should accept that a 2.0l is good enough.

Guys like trev copped a hammering for suggesting that larger capacity has a place where towing and durability is concerned.

If the point of the exercise is to promote the new product then they should just say so, don't dismiss opinion to the contrary just because it doesn't suit the desired narrative.
Its just another example of 'don't worry about what you think you need, just accept what we think you need'.
Its clearly an ingrained attitude.
correct me if i'm wrong but most who questioned the 2.0 raptor more so questioned why it would be the most expensive ranger about but feature the smallest motor in the range?

Guessing by previous comments there has been some negative feedback re the 2.0 Raptor?
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:48 PM   #86
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

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Originally Posted by au2000 View Post
correct me if i'm wrong but most who questioned the 2.0 raptor more so questioned why it would be the most expensive ranger about but feature the smallest motor in the range?

Guessing by previous comments there has been some negative feedback re the 2.0 Raptor?
Only from non-buyers, those that actually bought one love it.
It has the ten speed auto and alloy block diesel and a lot less
weight in the front end, good steering feel..

What HP buyers are asking for is something comparable with
the performance of F150 but less weight and much better braking.

A three litre Ecoboost would turn RR into a completely different vehicle.
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Old 08-11-2019, 08:02 PM   #87
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

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Originally Posted by au2000 View Post
correct me if i'm wrong but most who questioned the 2.0 raptor more so questioned why it would be the most expensive ranger about but feature the smallest motor in the range?

Guessing by previous comments there has been some negative feedback re the 2.0 Raptor?
No, I mean there have been discussions in regards to the Raptor and the choice to use a little 2.0l in a FP product, but im more aiming at the towing comparison threads where anyone who questions the 2.0l's durability to perform in the same way the 3.2l did is met with comments about being old school and outdated in thinking because Ford want people to transition to the smaller capacity engine.
And again, its probably a good bit of kit and adequate for most applications, the problem is in the message that you must conform to it being the new norm because that's what they want you to believe.
Ford have a habit of telling people what to buy rather than asking them, a wise man once said to me, smart businessmen have bigger ears than mouths..
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:50 AM   #88
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

While not Ford, but an interesting disclosure, one of the other ute manufacturers has admitted publically their current model had too much focus on the Thai market during development and not enough inclusion for countries such as Australia thus effecting it's sales here directly as it lags in key areas.

Having Ranger now as a US product incorproated in the development of the next model including a wider range of powertrains should be a bonus for Australia. Also Amarok is included as a varaint to be developed by the same Ranger team so who knows what that leads to.
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:29 AM   #89
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

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Originally Posted by BENT_8 View Post
No, I mean there have been discussions in regards to the Raptor and the choice to use a little 2.0l in a FP product, but im more aiming at the towing comparison threads where anyone who questions the 2.0l's durability to perform in the same way the 3.2l did is met with comments about being old school and outdated in thinking because Ford want people to transition to the smaller capacity engine.
And again, its probably a good bit of kit and adequate for most applications, the problem is in the message that you must conform to it being the new norm because that's what they want you to believe.
Ford have a habit of telling people what to buy rather than asking them, a wise man once said to me, smart businessmen have bigger ears than mouths..
Bent, there was only one chart that had to be shown to people



^^^^That is why most Ranger buyers have now switched,
the 2.0l is an effective replacement for the 3.2l and alllowed
Ford to charge more for increased efficiency but, what about
the buyer who wants even more power.....that's the key here,
Ford is preparing people for another power lift and yes, cost more.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:49 AM   #90
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Default Re: vFacts October 2019

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Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post
Bent, there was only one chart that had to be shown to people

image

^^^^That is why most Ranger buyers have now switched,
the 2.0l is an effective replacement for the 3.2l and alllowed
Ford to charge more for increased efficiency but, what about
the buyer who wants even more power.....that's the key here,
Ford is preparing people for another power lift and yes, cost more.
What, it holds its torque longer and has more power....over 3250rpm, who consistently rev's a diesel past 3250rpm?

I drive diesel vehicles everyday and never take them much past 2500rpm because between 1200 and there is where they do their work.
If you look at that chart, both come on at 1250, the 2.0l peaks at 2000 and drops off whereas the 3.2l holds its torque until 2500 where they align again.
Its only the initial rush and extra 50nm in that short 1750-2000rpm range where the bi-turbo has any consistently usable advantage.

The gains in the actual real world usable range are next to nothing and it uses just as much fuel to achieve it as stated by Simon.

As I said, its probably a great driveline for many applications, and is more refined, but its not the be all and end all that has been pushed by certain people.

I think Cyberwasps link gives a much better real world indication of its abilities than your dyno chart and it got its **** handed to it in every aspect.
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