Holden given secret $200m - Page 3

Stoney! · 08-08-2009, 07:53 PM

its not 'easing pressure' or keeping them afloat with GM' and its not a hand-out! I seriously wonder if people just read the bits they want to, then reply!

It's a line of credit, meaning and money has to be paid back. It also says NO MONEY HAS BEEN DRAWN FROM IT YET. I guess its a just in case slushie.

I also think holdens profit margins would be to do with setting up the alloytec plant and the $1Billion+ invested in the VE including continual investment and now tooling up for the Cruze. Its a big investment from no where and will need lesser capital for updates and all new models from here. As has been said recently, they are on track for profit this financial year.

At the end of the day, V8 supercars is advertising, and clearly their marketing and finance sections could justify it. People here have long ridiculed ford for marketing then you ridicule Holden for actually marketing their brand.

Stoney!

Ghiadude · 08-08-2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney!

its not 'easing pressure' or keeping them afloat with GM' and its not a hand-out! I seriously wonder if people just read the bits they want to, then reply!

It's a line of credit, meaning and money has to be paid back. It also says NO MONEY HAS BEEN DRAWN FROM IT YET. I guess its a just in case slushie.

I also think holdens profit margins would be to do with setting up the alloytec plant and the $1Billion+ invested in the VE including continual investment and now tooling up for the Cruze. Its a big investment from no where and will need lesser capital for updates and all new models from here. As has been said recently, they are on track for profit this financial year.

At the end of the day, V8 supercars is advertising, and clearly their marketing and finance sections could justify it. People here have long ridiculed ford for marketing then you ridicule Holden for actually marketing their brand.

Stoney!

So what your saying is all businesses should keep all their assets in times of trouble and just get loans from the government instead of selling things off. Then when the economy gets going again crow from the rooftops about how hard they did it and how they battled through. HOLDEN - ALL SPIN AND NO BALLS

Stoney! · 08-08-2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

So what your saying is all businesses should keep all their assets in times of trouble and just get loans from the government instead of selling things off. Then when the economy gets going again crow from the rooftops about how hard they did it and how they battled through. HOLDEN - ALL SPIN AND NO BALLS

How many companies in the above situations have such value in export deals and this many jobs at stake? Exports and jobs that aid the economy.... Not to mention all the other companies it would affect also

Stoney!

GT69 · 08-08-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney!

How many companies in the above situations have such value in export deals and this many jobs at stake? Exports and jobs that aid the economy.... Not to mention all the other companies it would affect also

Stoney!

More importantly, How many companies COULD have export potential with this sort of cash injection.

exrtnz · 08-08-2009, 09:33 PM

Maybe they will give SBR an offer to good to refuse?? Who knows what there next move is

Ghiadude · 08-08-2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT69

More importantly, How many companies COULD have export potential with this sort of cash injection.

EXACTLY!

GT290 · 08-08-2009, 09:44 PM

I think its crap, Why should they be allowed to go through with the purchase of 888 if this is the bread line for them. Its not a very responsible aquasition into the future of the business. HRT will always be No 1, the only way thats going to come true is by shutting down 888 pretty much. I think its a shame what has happened but it is what it is and all the crapping on won't change it. Just makes it worse when you see this sort of think happening and they say they are saving jobs. the poor buggers have passed up bonuses, overtime and other bennifits to help those shiny arsed so and so's keep their jobs. Its hypocrocy.
I saw a viio on youtube a fair while back on Fords business plan for such times as this right now, they are smart and not so much as saw it comming but expected it.

GT69 · 08-08-2009, 10:12 PM

More over, If a company cant be successful in booming times, they've got no hope in the lean times. The government is doing what it has to do, save jobs in the short term. Lets face it, Ford and Holden are both up a creek. Ford came up with a strategy to get themselves back where they need to be. Holden (GM) continues to require money to take a pi$$.

Does it not seem strange that they need money to export to somewhere that most of their parts are already imported from? Also, shouldn't GM be paying for all this import export stuff, Considering 'technically' GM will be buying/importing Holden vehicles to sell in its own market.

Instead of sinking more money into a sinking ship, Sink it into something that will further the prospects for all Australian's. Who knows, If Holden went belly up, Ford might well pick up enough to employ most of the now redundant employees, Whats more, Sinking the money into another sector might well create more jobs, thus keeping the economy alive without trying to shock start the heart of a fossil.

But governments wont do that, Its bad PR. Best to keep a taxpayer funded laughable excuse for a company going than come to the realisation that money spent else where could well have produced better results.

SpoolMan · 08-08-2009, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

Its a line of credit and as such has to be paid back - not a gift as i understand it.

True but why not go to your fanciers are things a lot worse than we are being told, this could end up being the 1st of many more payments as they had to do in the US.
I also wonder why Holden wanted this line of credit kept secret.

**ebxr8240** · 08-08-2009, 10:59 PM

As I suspected !! I asked where the $$ was comeing from in another thread, In the pits..

Dr Smith · 08-08-2009, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

True but why not go to your fanciers are things a lot worse than we are being told, this could end up being the 1st of many more payments as they had to do in the US.
I also wonder why Holden wanted this line of credit kept secret.

As I understand it their long term bank, CBA, refused to offer the line of credit.

Ghiadude · 08-08-2009, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

As I understand it their long term bank, CBA, refused to offer the line of credit.

Gee, I cant imagine why - Possibly because Holden are deemed too high a risk ?:rolleyes:

**Bundy** · 08-08-2009, 11:13 PM

I would have loved to be in Cranbra to see these grovelling Holden CEOs asking for a SECERET "GIFT" (line of credit at a super low interest rate) as they hopped out of their private JETS to kiss some KRUD backside.

Ahh who am I kidding, Ruddy's for jobs and would do the same thing for any down and out national auto company, like that defunct one in SA, what was its name again?

snappy · 08-08-2009, 11:16 PM

Shows how well researched this article was.
http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new..._hard_and_fast

Swordsman88 · 09-08-2009, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snappy84

Shows how well researched this article was.
http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new..._hard_and_fast

Someone said earlier that this revelation 'makes me sick', well that story made me feel ill when i was barely half way through.

That article is a total puff piece, paid for advertising by any other name. And to think John Laws copped a fair old whack for much much less in my view.

I can't think of the last time a journo fawned like this over a car. In fact, aussie journos are generally the most sceptical of the lot. You never see them getting so crazy excited as the UK journos do over some of their home grown stuff (of course who couldn't love an aston martin...but they get excited by ford mondeos too so....). But this Gover....well bias aint strong enough a word. After he runs this trollop, he follwos with an attack on Ford not weeks later over a 'lack of direction'. Well when GM (including holden) dont release over half of the 'new cars' he claims are under development in this puff article, i assume he will publish a story about holden's 'lack of direction' and 'wasteful spending' on useless projects. Those 'diesel' Holden mules...didn't Reuss just say they wouldn't put diesel in a comodore any time soon???

Which brings us back neatly to the topic at hand. Many many people involved in the automotive business have asked in recent times 'how is holden surviving', 'where is the money coming from' and 'will they become Government Motors like their parent company'. Holden and the government have all said 'they are safe', an important part of 'new GM'.

Well of course we now know why, both parties were in on Holden's future, the Government was so adamant the chinese wouldn't buy holden BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAD!!!!

I don't want to get in on the whole politics of government bailouts, that is a much bigger and complex debate RE free market economics versus jobs versus public interest. BUT, to have holden blatantly spin, and the public via the biased, myopic or just plain negligent media buy, this ridiculous story that 'Holden is fine', 'Holden is going strong' all the while the government was giving them this lifeline is crock.

Yes Ford and toyota and mitsu have recieved funding in the past and will continue to for local projects. But that is all publicly available. Ford even gets money from its struggling parent to cover operations when they make a loss (which they did last FY). Why didn't Holden tell us it got its loan from K Rudd??? We all knew GM ddn't have the moolah for them to use.

My theory, it would destroy the veneer of profitability Holden has. Holden are all about spin, perception and public relations. Destroy that, you destroy any chance they have of suriving. Lord knows their product isn't all that impressive.

:

HUNTER8 · 09-08-2009, 01:02 AM

It's a secured debt. CBA has the first charge then the govenrment.
If Holdens were to go under then their assets are safe. Write off the rest of debt, shareholders miss out, re-employ the staff and just keep on going.
Gets around the government buying their assets to protect jobs.

500SEC · 09-08-2009, 03:48 PM

Like most government expenditure, giving money to GMH represents "good money chasing bad".

There is a lot of talk about saving jobs, but this $200m donation is nothing more than short-term thinking. Real jobs (ie, not government jobs) are created and maintained by the private sector, not by government involvement. In the broader economy, and in the longer term (ie, beyond a politician's radar), jobs are lost with this kind of intervention.

GMH should be allowed to fail just like all the other businesses in Australia that fail through poor management and low productivity.

I hope Ford get some kudos for battling this economic climate on their own two feet (not forgetting all the hand-outs they've received over the years).

The passion for Holden reminds me of the Qantas saga, and how we Australians are hell bent on keeping it local... what a joke that is.

sarrge2001 · 09-08-2009, 07:22 PM

It's not a donation it's a line of credit, a loan!! It's supposed to help fund their export program....if required.

Whilst not a Holden fan by a long way, they must be doing it tough if the CBA won't give them a line of credit. So the government (which i'm not a fan of either) has stepped in. They know that Holden going under would cost a lot more than $200M damage to the economy and the confidence of this country.

V8's is a form of advertising - it's part of their business plan and would have been costed to the last dollar. And you can bet that they would have had to provide very detailed financial information to the government to justify all their expenditure in order to secure that line of credit. Including the money they spend on advertising. I would also imagine they would need to justify expenditure against the line of credit

They also have to budget to pay it back as per any commercial arrangement.

Why hasn't Ford been offered it?? Maybe because they don't need it!!

And Ford being in a stronger financial position at this point in time can only be a good thing.

Ghiadude · 09-08-2009, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarrge2001

And Ford being in a stronger financial position at this point in time can only be a good thing.

Its great that ford can stand on its own two feet but they have skimped on some things (Lack of new wheel designs on the FG FPV's)So theyre doing it tough - Holden isnt, because theyre leaning on the government and they are going to be in a better position when things start to recover.

Wally · 09-08-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

So what your saying is all businesses should keep all their assets in times of trouble and just get loans from ..........

That's exactly how well run business' do it. They leverage their assets, just like Ford did several years ago, right down to the brand logo.

sarrge2001 · 09-08-2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

Its great that ford can stand on its own two feet but they have skimped on some things (Lack of new wheel designs on the FG FPV's)So theyre doing it tough - Holden isnt, because theyre leaning on the government and they are going to be in a better position when things start to recover.

If Holden can only get a line of credit from the government, they ARE doing it tough.

And if they draw on it, when they come out the other side they will still have to pay that money back.

If they don't use it, then it will have made no difference to their position.

Both Holden are Ford are a business - this is simply another business overdraft facility - albeit by the government instead of a bank.

imugli · 10-08-2009, 09:37 AM

There was a link to an msnbc video on BON a couple of months back and the guy being interviewed was making the point that GM is no longer a car company. It's essentially a healthcare and pension fund.

He made the point that as soon as the economy picks up and the US stops shedding jobs, THEN the US gov will let them fold. They can't do it now as they don't want to be seen contributing to unemployment.

I'd mak the argument that it's much the same thinking in Holden's case. The govt would rather carry a basket case than be seen to be contributing so heavily to unemployment - esp. when the company involved is so 'iconic'... When the economy picks up and Holden are still losing money hand over fist me thinks it will be bye bye birdie...

Wally · 10-08-2009, 11:33 AM

You know, it's amusing reading the myriad of posts/articles over the years, where GM are going down, Ford is going down and they are still around regardless of the expert and armchair pundits. This car and that car is going to sell like hotcakes and it tanks, this car and that car is a joke and yet it sells well. There are great conspiracies and howls of unfair treatments, of unlevel playing fields, etc over minor things. Blinkers on, brain in neutral.

**Polyal** · 10-08-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imugli

I'd mak the argument that it's much the same thinking in Holden's case. The govt would rather carry a basket case than be seen to be contributing so heavily to unemployment - esp. when the company involved is so 'iconic'... When the economy picks up and Holden are still losing money hand over fist me thinks it will be bye bye birdie...

That I reckon is it.

Imagine how bad the gov would look if GMH where to fold and they "did nothing".

Ford should get some tax rebate for not getting extra funding!

All smacks of nice guys finish last.

ltd · 10-08-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarrge2001

If Holden can only get a line of credit from the government, they ARE doing it tough.

And if they draw on it, when they come out the other side they will still have to pay that money back.

If they don't use it, then it will have made no difference to their position.

Both Holden are Ford are a business - this is simply another business overdraft facility - albeit by the government instead of a bank.

You're 100% spot on here.
If the CBA ended their 50 year relationship with GMH, could mean the beginning of alot more rationalisation and worse. I'd hate to be a holden employee right now.

Wally · 10-08-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

That I reckon is it.

Imagine how bad the gov would look if GMH where to fold and they "did nothing".

Ford should get some tax rebate for not getting extra funding!

All smacks of nice guys finish last.

They are getting extra funding, its called Ozcar

**Grunter** · 10-08-2009, 04:21 PM

Quote:

June 2nd -However, Holden managing director Mark Reuss, who flew to Canberra on Tuesday for meetings with Senator Carr and the prime minister, said the Australian subsidiary had already undergone a major restructuring.

Holden would remain a viable entity, he said.

"Up to this point, we have become, and restructured to be, a cash positive and liquid and almost profitable entity here in Australia over the last 15 months," Mr Reuss said.

He said the company would not receive any money from the federal government until cars started rolling off the new Adelaide production line in the third quarter of next year.

Link

If Holden is so "liquid" and "cash positive" then why do they need the $200m credit backing?

XRtowcar · 10-08-2009, 04:53 PM

"A measure of the struggle facing Holden was given by the company's auditors, Deloitte, just a few weeks ago. It warned Holden was subject to "material uncertainty regarding continuation as a going concern"."

Hope there is a guarantee on the loan.

vztrt · 10-08-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRtowcar

"A measure of the struggle facing Holden was given by the company's auditors, Deloitte, just a few weeks ago. It warned Holden was subject to "material uncertainty regarding continuation as a going concern"."

Hope there is a guarantee on the loan.

Here's the article.

http://business.theage.com.au/busine...0702-d6md.html

imugli · 10-08-2009, 06:20 PM

Where's Mr. Gover with all his editorial / journalistic wisdom on this? Does anyone think it'll get a run in this weeks carsguide? I'll put $20.00 that if it does, it's with a positive spin - something like "Government shows confidence in Holden" with the first para being something along the lines of "The Australian government has shown confidence in Aussie Icon Holden by agreeing to guarantee a $200million line of credit..." with nothing of the fact that Commbank pulled the plug because they're losing fistfuls of cash and Delloitte's have said that without it they'd be up the proverbial creek without a paddle...

Report THIS fairly and balanced, Mr. Gover.

End Rant.