Abbott to Ford: export or die

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by MrMaestro

Why does LHD matter anyway? Exports to the US would be on razor-thin margins, it wouldn't be worth it unless the volumes were huge.

Europe on the other hand, why can't Falcon and Territory be sold there where they would be up against more expensive "saloons" and SUVs from BMW, Mercedes and Audi? Obviously they can't compete with that competition on quality, but on bang-for-back surely they would make give them a run for their money. And no costly LHD development program. The only issue would be complying with EU emissions standards.

I've wondered that for a while, as the evidence from the Monaro sales on both continents suggests the European/UK sales attracted a much higher premium than US sales.

To do mainland Europe though they need to meet much tougher emissions standards and also needs to be LHD.

[Nikked]

My Mother in laws FG XT falcon has a lot of stuff our base MA Mondeo doesn't have, and IIRC the price new for both of them would be the same (or thereabouts). They are much nicer inside as well.

I was surprised when I actually took time to compare the two...the reason for the Mondeo purchase was that it was cheaper (we are buying second hand), and was the right deal at the right time. Most FG's of that era were still a bit more pricey for a lower K example, and my missus wanted a "smaller car".

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Nikked

when I actually took time to compare the two

i think you'll find that most people who bag the local product haven't even sat in one, let alone owned one. jumping on a bandwagon is easy, and the local guys are an easy target at the moment.

i don't understand the article by abbott and the singling out of ford. he states they need to export more, like holden and toyota do, as though they are doing something right!! so why then is holden also struggling and needing to be propped up??? and on a larger scale???

i think its unfair to single out ford here.

many of their suppliers are also now offshore. this is forced on them to remain competitive. if the govt wants them to support the locals and achieve some sort of volume whilst remaining competitive then they need to do something about the situation with the ease in which imports can flood the market.

can't have cake and eat it too.

[Resurrection]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The best way to shorten up the used car market is to force substandard vehicles off the road and crush them..

Nooooooooooooooooooo. Imagine how many more coupes would have been lost under this scheme!

[BOSSGTE]

I get quite passionate about the media (and public at large) knocking the Australian Automotive industry. It annoys me when people will complain about the handouts, but not take into account the 1000's of jobs these handouts save. I think an easy, and fair outcome for all Aussie manufacturers, would be to reduce the car registration on Australian made cars. This would not only help new car purchases, but 2nd hand car purchases and ongoing costs all in all making buying/owning an Aussie car more affordable and therefore more attractive. Imagine if instead of $700/year for rego, it was only $200. I think it would be enough to encourage more punters into Aussie cars. And imagine the difference that would make to major corporations that have fleets of car into the 1000's. Huge savings to be had.

Also, local councils, state and federal governments should not be allowed to buy anything other than Aussie produced cars.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by BOSSGTE

It annoys me when people will complain about the handouts.

Yet, I be the same people scream out for the government to give them hand outs...

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Are you serious? Ford Australia doesn't have the authority to export against the wishes of Ford US. Like it or not, Dearborn calls the shots. This is something that Mr Abbott does not realise.

Bollocks.
Ford manufactures all over the world. Do you think they LIKE Thailand any more than us? Yes, they have to balance political reality against international economics, and yes that will always mean that Ford strives to keep as many Americans employed as possible. But they still have a global view. In fact with the free-trade agreement Australian products would be more attractive than they might otherwise be.
The problems with FA trying to export anything more than a few niche cars are multiple:
COST. It simply costs too much to manufacture in Australia. Our factories our out-dated, inefficient, and labour intensive. Cost of living and taxation is too high, so labour costs are high.
EXPORT ENHANCEMENT. There is NONE. Unlike just about every country you can name, the Australian government offers negligible incentive to export. Why pay the ludicrous taxes in Australia, when you can make it somewhere else?
CAPACITY. For far too long the local industry has been forced to survive on hand-outs just enough to maintain limited manufacture of politically important local models. People need to understand that the numbers we fret over are globally insignificant. Ironically this means that a GENUINE export model could be the salvation of the local motoring industry, but at the moment we lack the capacity.
CREDIBILITY. Australia is a tiny market for Ford, and not globally significant. Our local manufacturing is a drop in the bucket. So when looking for someone to manufacture a new line, I doubt FA even cracks a mention.
QUALITY. Let’s face it; we’ve had some quality control issues in the past.
AUD. The Aussie dollar is way too high for exports to be competitive, and it fluctuates too much over the longer term. Even if the commodity boom ends and the AUD comes back to 60c, it is still too risky for long-term investment.

A point that needs to be made is that all these little bailouts we see are not about making Australian products competitive. They are little more than bribes to maintain the political illusion of an auto manufacturing sector in Australia.

IMHO what all of the forgoing highlights is that we need to cut the crap. Stop all the ******** talk about supporting Australian Manufacturing. Either come out and admit that government is not going to protect and encourage Australian manufacturing, OR do something REAL and fundamental to change these underlying factors, such that manufacturers nolonger have to go cap in hand to the government to save a few jobs.

[Revolver]

The problem is Ford Oz can't export if the HO in the land of flags & anthems doesn't want them to.

And they don't want them to. Ford Aus for many years now has been the neglected second cousin. They just want Ford Australia to cater to Australia. (& by that I mean NZ too).

And you can see that in the that way Holden is utilized by GM. they have helped in many ways with The new camaro & vette's, sending the caprices over to the US to put their ticket in for the police departments fleets, Monaros as GTO's and the new commodore as an integral part of their line up.

Ford? Nothing. It's because Ford global doesn't see Ford OZ as a true company asset (and dont help to make it one) is the reason why ford OZ doesn't export.

It's BS.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Brazen

He is bang on the money.

Funny that people commenting on an internet forum think they know the ins and outs better than he does. Abbott is probably on a first name basis with the CEO of Ford Australia. you need to read between the lines this speech was directed at Ford US telling them that a Liberal government wants a volume push from Ford and that the government will support them and that the government is a firm believer in the industry and the vehicles it produces.

Ford need to sell more than 10,000 Falcons a year or 12,000 Terrriories to keep them sustainable. They need to export them otherwise how can they justify the design and engineering and manufacture of the next models.

This is the really first time we have heard passionate talk about the car industry from a potential Prime Minister, this is exactly what Ford US needs to hear.

I think that it is a great message. So long as it is heard, so long as it is acted upon.

I love the Falcon and the Ute, but I care more about Ford continuing to make vehicles in Australia. I don't want the Falcon to just survive, I want it to flourish. The best way for that to happen is for the Mustang and Falcon to further integrate as they have already started (ecoboost RWD, suspension sets). We also need GRWD to become reality. We could become the RHD export centre.

Not making the Focus in Australia was the right decision. Despite the opportunity to make Kuga etc.

Not getting the Australian designed Global T6 Ranger/BT50 production in Australia (South Africa got it to replace Focus which moved to Thailand) was the biggest loss. They could be making 5,000 of these a month for the Australian market alone. Add in the upcoming Everest with another 1,000. Biggest issue was the requirement (most likely) for a 2nd line due to body on frame technology. With the latest advancements at Ford, the flexibility of their manufacturing / assembly lines might mean that it is feasible in future.

If they were to be made here, then we would also mean that Mazda would be a 'local' producer too!

But, getting back to the message being sent. It's a great message. But, it is something of an ultimatum. Ford have huge engineering resources in Australia, we are effectively the 3rd major centre (Detroit, Cologne, Melbourne). Ford have invested big money into the Melbourne facilities and people.

Ford have also recently said Thailand is losing it's competitive edge, has political constraints and enviromental (flood) susceptibility, not to mention they are at capacity. I think that this could just be the push required to expand an under utilised Australian asset (both people and facilities).

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by prydey

so which one of you two have owned an FG or FG2 for a period of time? i always laugh at these type of comments, insinuating that falcon is some second rate product that is missing endless features that all others offer.

And I always chuckle when people think cash for comment actually means something. Trying to validate your opinion through ownership and not knowledge of the situation still?

If everything was honky dory these threads would not exist. See post 60.

[bobthebilda]

I would suspect that even Toyota are having difficulty in maintaining their exports at the moment. FCAI website
http://www.fcai.com.au/sales/monthly-production-volumes

states 93246 vehicles were made in the last 6 months. At the same time, Australians purchased 12300 commodores, 11972 cruzes, 3312 commodore utes, 6185 falcons, 6950 territories, 2299 falcon ute, 14311 camrys, 4292 aurions for a total of 61621 cars.

That leaves 31625 for export (not 100% accurate as their is an overlap of production and exports, cruze sales include some imported wagons, and total vehicles manufactured include some large trucks made in australia - but they should roughly cancel each other out).

The following article states Toyota exported 69763 cars from march 2012 to march 2013
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...257B42007FD850

Taking into account Holden / Ford exports to NZ, Holden exports to USA and middle east, toyotas exports for last 6 month must be down to mid 20 thousands. Would explain some of the low interest deals they were offering on camry / aurion late last year (and i think have restarted). They are diverting capacity that would have gone for exports, back into the domestic market.

[Bossxr8]

Do Detroit want to see FoA die, or do they want it to flourish. They can't continue to sit by and watch it slide into oblivion if they think FoA is such a great asset like they have said previously (talking about global development programs etc).

They either give it the support it needs, and open up export opportunities for them, or kill it off now. FoA can no longer survive building niche vehicles for Oz and NZ consumption only.

Sadly I think they will take the 2nd option. If its not US made, designed or valuable to them in some way its too damn bad really it seems.

[Franco Cozzo]

I wonder if GM and Ford would sell their Australian operations?

What do you think they would be worth?

[Brazen]

Why are people blaming Ford US? Ford US gave Ford Au the Focus and Kuga contract - Ford Au headed by Burela reversed it. Ford US wanted the Falcon to have the global V6 which would make it export ready, Ford Au headed by Burela reversed it. Ranger production came up recently, Ford Au didnt pursue it..... At all.

Ford Australia have been the ones constantly obsessed with keeping the sinking status quo, as each head of Ford Au doesn't want to risk his quarterly performance bonus by investing in the future which will only benefit the next guy in charge. The Ford Au manual says that each CEO should do as little as possible while they wait for the next plum job opening in Ford China or Ford Europe.

The issues lay with Ford Australia, not Ford US. Funny many years back when Polites was in charge and actually fought for Ford Au - he went to Ford US and in one meeting they agreed to fully fund the Australian engineered and developed Ford Territory. Yep, those Ford US execs must really want to see Ford Au fail.....

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Why are people blaming Ford US? Ford US gave Ford Au the Focus and Kuga contract - Ford Au headed by Burela reversed it. Ford US wanted the Falcon to have the global V6 which would make it export ready, Ford Au headed by Burela reversed it. Ranger production came up recently, Ford Au didnt pursue it..... At all.

Ford Australia have been the ones constantly obsessed with keeping the sinking status quo, as each head of Ford Au doesn't want to risk his quarterly performance bonus by investing in the future which will only benefit the next guy in charge. The Ford Au manual says that each CEO should do as little as possible while they wait for the next plum job opening in Ford China or Ford Europe.

The issues lay with Ford Australia, not Ford US. Funny many years back when Polites was in charge and actually fought for Ford Au - he went to Ford US and in one meeting they agreed to fully fund the Australian engineered and developed Ford Territory. Yep, those Ford US execs must really want to see Ford Au fail.....

You couldn't be more wrong. Ford have to prove to Detroit they have a solid, profitable business case before they are allowed to continue with the project. The numbers simply did not stack up for Focus for it to be profitable. The very same reason why Toyota won't build Corolla here, and they both wonder how Holden managed to get Cruze built here and actually make a profit. Ranger didn't pass the business plan because the high aussie dollar made it un-profitable to export.

It all comes down to numbers, not lack of desire. Nothing gets done unless a solid business plan passes all the tests.

[uranium_death]

Unrealistic to expect us to export. Our vehicles cost too much to manufacture, and thereby exporting would not yield any benefit, other than numbers.
Numbers mean nothing if you don't make money.

It hasn't worked for Holden all that much...

It works for Toyota because they have a global platform - even then, I'm sure there are overseas factories churning out more than Australia does for the Big T.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

You couldn't be more wrong. Ford have to prove to Detroit they have a solid, profitable business case before they are allowed to continue with the project. The numbers simply did not stack up for Focus for it to be profitable. The very same reason why Toyota won't build Corolla here, and they both wonder how Holden managed to get Cruze built here and actually make a profit. Ranger didn't pass the business plan because the high aussie dollar made it un-profitable to export.

It all comes down to numbers, not lack of desire. Nothing gets done unless a solid business plan passes all the tests.

..... and where the $$$ is at today I bet Ford HQ are saying Phew!

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Brazen

He is bang on the money.

Funny that people commenting on an internet forum think they know the ins and outs better than he does. Abbott is probably on a first name basis with the CEO of Ford Australia. you need to read between the lines this speech was directed at Ford US telling them that a Liberal government wants a volume push from Ford and that the government will support them and that the government is a firm believer in the industry and the vehicles it produces.

Ford need to sell more than 10,000 Falcons a year or 12,000 Terrriories to keep them sustainable. They need to export them otherwise how can they justify the design and engineering and manufacture of the next models.

This is the really first time we have heard passionate talk about the car industry from a potential Prime Minister, this is exactly what Ford US needs to hear.

that's absolutely correct....and lets not forgot he mentions the ford territory as an amazing car among others made hear that are so good its a wonder why they aren't delivered to the rest of the world....because they are truly that good.
My bro was on a holden forum the other day and told me they where denying that Australia even had a car industry that produced cars that would compete, or at least be good on the world scene. Maybe that's the mentality you get when your surrounded by substanded holden products most of your life (hsv products excluded to be fair). Territory, ecolpi falcon, ecoboost falcon, and basically all the turbo models and the mighty aussie adapted supercharged 5.0 are all cars that the world should have.
Now people may argue the gear and the quality may not in some models by topnotch...but bang for buck and performance are extremely good selling points among others...anyway good stuff/start ABBOtt

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

You couldn't be more wrong. Ford have to prove to Detroit they have a solid, profitable business case before they are allowed to continue with the project. The numbers simply did not stack up for Focus for it to be profitable. The very same reason why Toyota won't build Corolla here, and they both wonder how Holden managed to get Cruze built here and actually make a profit. Ranger didn't pass the business plan because the high aussie dollar made it un-profitable to export.

It all comes down to numbers, not lack of desire. Nothing gets done unless a solid business plan passes all the tests.

this is what really annoys me (not your post as such) but people talk about sales numbers and so on in aus...what about the great product itself??....the powers at be should be calling themselves stupid if they don't see what they can do to take FULL advantage of an amazing product under the FORD banner, no matter where it originates from. If that means grabbing the territory or whatever and trying it in as many markets that fit the cars profile...them BAM do it

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Ford US gave Ford Au the Focus and Kuga contract - Ford Au headed by Burela reversed it.

WHAT Kuga contract? It was only ever Focus announced.

Ford US wanted the Falcon to have the global V6 which would make it export ready, Ford Au headed by Burela reversed it.

The 123 project was going to cost significant money, maybe over $100m with new crash tests and sheetmetal. Euro4 I6 was done for peanuts in comparison and is still LHD protected in FG.

Ranger production came up recently, Ford Au didnt pursue it..... At all.

They wouldve had to install a second line or remove existing products to do so, in any case a pretty big tear up of Broadmeadows. It wouldnt have been an easy decision to make...

The issues lay with Ford Australia, not Ford US. Funny many years back when Polites was in charge and actually fought for Ford Au - he went to Ford US and in one meeting they agreed to fully fund the Australian engineered and developed Ford Territory. Yep, those Ford US execs must really want to see Ford Au fail.....

When did Polites go to the US? Over a decade ago? The only soft roader Ford had in its stable then was the Escape. I hardly doubt the decision was made over a single meeting either.

[uniacidz]

Sorry guys but this is old news.
In fact Abbot is right on the money
I too do not want to see Ford 'disappear' from Aussie shores, nor Holden.
Been ongoing for a while now and prob had a better opportunity in the past then they do now.


Anyway, please read below.



Ford rejected export help: Wikileaks
Date
September 13, 2011
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor...913-1k6lu.html

The cable, released last week by Wikileaks, reveal that the Melbourne-based car maker had declined the help of Federal Industry Minister Kim Carr, who offered ''co-investment opportunities to create left-hand-drive cars for export''.

''[Senator] Carr is very worried about Ford's future in Australia. He told [the Consul-General's office] Melbourne he fears Ford will not succeed in attracting the necessary investment to update its aging product lines,'' the cable, signed off by former Melbourne-based US Consul-General Michael Thurston, says.

Proof
Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Falcon_(Australia)
Exports Section

Ford had intended developing the car with left hand drive export potential, and received federal and state government grants to assist, but in October 2007 it was announced by Ford Australia president Tom Gorman that the left-hand-drive Falcon project was to be abandoned and the export incentive grant money would be directed to construction of the Ford Focus small-car in Australia. In the end, the Focus project did not proceed and Asia-Pacific production of that model was instead started at a new plant in Thailand in June 2012. As the FG Falcon utilizes much of the previous model's architecture, converting it to left hand drive would have been a costly and time consuming process

And this one dating back to 2006
Ford Australia boss scotches US export chance but holds hope for Aussie suppliers
17 May 2006
By JOHN MELLOR
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...25717100063B47

FORD Australia has shot down any suggestions that its newly integrated role in developing global platforms will ever see it become a significant exporter of Australian-made cars into the United States.

Ford Australia president Tom Gorman told business writers last week that the mathematics just "does not work".

In what amounts to a Ford rejection of following GM Holden’s strategy of exporting Australian-made vehicles (Pontiac GTOs) into the US, Mr Gorman said the numbers do not add up.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Polyal

And I always chuckle when people think cash for comment actually means something. Trying to validate your opinion through ownership and not knowledge of the situation still?

If everything was honky dory these threads would not exist. See post 60.

direct me to where i stated that everything at ford is 'honky dory'!

you state the falcon is behind the times! i believe my ownership of a FG does validate my opinion in this instance, as i have 1st hand knowledge.

explain to everyone how it is 'behind the times'. sales has nothing to do with it. we are talking product here. there are many reasons why the product isn't selling, but i wouldn't exactly call it 'behind the times'!

[EB#]

With regards to the Falcon, the product doesn't sell because people simply don't want to buy it.
If it doesn't sell here, how can it be considered that it would sell in any viable number
as an export?

I don't see that Abbott's remarks are directed at either Ford AU or US. He is
spruking for votes within the auto manufacturing electorates at this stage.
THAT is his agenda.

“But, please, do the right thing by your designers, your workers. Give them
a fighting chance of a long-term future by making sure that the excellence of their
product is more obvious to the wider world.”

[mik]

Originally Posted by prydey

i think you'll find that most people who bag the local product haven't even sat in one, let alone owned one. jumping on a bandwagon is easy, and the local guys are an easy target at the moment.

i don't understand the article by abbott and the singling out of ford. he states they need to export more, like holden and toyota do, as though they are doing something right!! so why then is holden also struggling and needing to be propped up??? and on a larger scale???

i think its unfair to single out ford here.

many of their suppliers are also now offshore. this is forced on them to remain competitive. if the govt wants them to support the locals and achieve some sort of volume whilst remaining competitive then they need to do something about the situation with the ease in which imports can flood the market.

can't have cake and eat it too.

agree on all points, the main problem imo is pollies don`t want to acknowledge the problem was started by them in the first place 30/40 years ago, most of them are living in a dream world that if your a business owner/operator..................... you can endlessly cut costs or become " more efficient " .
Probably more than half of them have never ran a business in their lives, they would`nt have a bloody clue how hard it is to run a business in Australia, especially if it is labor or energy intensive, manufacturing is often both.

[290GTP]

Originally Posted by EB92

With regards to the Falcon, the product doesn't sell because people simply don't want to buy it.
If it doesn't sell here, how can it be considered that it would sell in any viable number
as an export?

”[/I]

The Falcon doesn't sell well because Ford doesn't know how to sell it. I cant remember the last time I saw an ad for the Falcon much less the Eco boost. Funny thing is, everyone who drives one raves on about how good they are. And then you have the media constantly spewing out how the Falcon is doomed & that no one in their right mind would buy a car that is on its death bed. Top Gear magazine even said that Ford fans have already said their goodbyes to the Falcon.

Poor bloody car never had a chance.

[JOESBOSS]

from what a read a while ago the B series falcon & territory was designed to be a LHD export, but Ford America had some clause in place where they wouldn't import it to their local market.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by EB92

With regards to the Falcon, the product doesn't sell because people simply don't want to buy it.
If it doesn't sell here, how can it be considered that it would sell in any viable number
as an export?

I don’t agree with his. Yes the market has defiantly changed from what it was 5-10 years ago & probably will never go back. But I do think there is a market there & Falcon could be taking a bigger share of new car sales. The Camry is a good example, it might be considered "medium" in some sales report, but is pretty much is a Falcon size sedan. (just like the different sized "small" cars). Falcon even has the same sized engine too!!

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by MrMaestro

Why does LHD matter anyway? Exports to the US would be on razor-thin margins, it wouldn't be worth it unless the volumes were huge.

Europe on the other hand, why can't Falcon and Territory be sold there where they would be up against more expensive "saloons" and SUVs from BMW, Mercedes and Audi? Obviously they can't compete with that competition on quality, but on bang-for-back surely they would make give them a run for their money. And no costly LHD development program. The only issue would be complying with EU emissions standards.

All of Europe is LHD, only the UK is not.

[EB#]

Originally Posted by 290GTP

The Falcon doesn't sell well because Ford doesn't know how to sell it....

In 2012, the top three sellers in the small car market netted 112,000 units.
In 2012, the top three sellers in the large SUV market netted 45,000 units in a growing sector.
In 2012, the top three in all SUV categories pulled a total of 126,000.

Ford sold 14,000 Falcons last year.

In 2012, the top three sellers in the large sedan market netted 53,500 units
and the numbers are declining further. This is in the face trying to sell to
a market that actually wants either a small car or an SUV to the tune of
238,000 units across the board for the top three sellers.

To me, that says people don't want to buy large sedans and I expect a bunch
of flashy tv ads won't change that. Sales numbers and their trends tell the story.

Again, with regards to exporting the Falcon, why would Ford now spend millions
on developing their lowest selling (Australian designed and made) large sedan
in history to throw into an overseas market? .....My vague memory of a Yr7
economics class tells me that's not backing a winner.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

All of Europe is LHD, only the UK is not.

Not all but almost all.

On the other hand India is RHD and there are more of them than Europeans......