Holden to make "important announcement" about its VIC and SA operations

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Eaturbo

Aussie cars use to be just as feature packed as imports when volumes were high and there was money to afford the R&D to put these new features in. As volume dropped so too did the features.

don't believe everything you read. some of the top 10 buzzboxes are only just getting stuff the big aussie sedans have had for years.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by prydey

don't believe everything you read. some of the top 10 buzzboxes are only just getting stuff the big aussie sedans have had for years.

Such as the Mazda 3, which only up until recently only matched the povvo spec Falcon XT for features.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Such as the Mazda 3, which only up until recently only matched the povvo spec Falcon XT for features.

It's all about perception though. The Mazda 3 feels like you are getting more even though you aren't. Ford need to get rid of the XT and start with the G6. There are no need for 'base' model cars anymore. Fleets aren't buying. It's only hurting perception.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

Two words: the dollar.

Indeed, the high AUD will be the death of this country.

And to think that the RBA says we should be "grateful" that the AUD is high? Turn it up FFS!

The Australia dollar now, is exactly where it was against the Thai Baht and the Japanese Yen in mid to late 2008 (the two countries that are currently producing the biggest competition for the cruze). It did drop prior to Holden making the decision to make the cruze locally (due to the GFC late 2008), , I think announced in Feb. 2009, but it had bounced back alot of those gains by the end of 2009 (long before Holden started producing the cruze).

The demise in cruze competitiveness (if it ever was), is more about a poor business decision by the management of Holden and The Federal Government. Local Focus production would have had the same fate if someone at Ford had of made an "ego" decision like the cruze.

As far as I know, the cruze is now the cheapest (and for along time has been on par), with its main competitors (Carolla, Mazda 3). Holden may be losing money due to its lower price, but that doesnt account for people not wanting to buy it in the volume that Holden and the Feds thought it was going to sell.

[Wretched]

Well are we seeing the result of local makers sitting on their hands for how many years thinking they had the market in the bag not realising everyone else was busy innovating and improving their products?

If the locals want us to buy their cars they have to a bit better. Ford had a glint of innovation in their eye when they introduced the Territory, back in 2004 it was genius, a car that handled like a sedan but gave a lot more practicality (I know I drove one from Melbourne to Perth and back).
Sadly since then both Holden and Ford have done nothing, a few updates here and there but nothing that would make their cars more viable than competitors.

I still believe the Territory is great value for money but with a market of that size Ford have to be careful that they don't wrest on their laurels and take the typical aussie "she'll be right" attitude. The Territory has the potential to sell a lot more than it does and Ford need to capitalise on that, Falcon is pretty much dead and they need to shift their priorities to Territory. It is a far more versatile car that is better suited to more people (sales reflect that). The diesel was great move but really 5 years too late and they should have had the LPi engine in there long ago, this is what I am saying there is just no foresight from the local makers, for companies that should know what we want they certainly are pretty "dumb."

Tariffs won't do anything anymore it won't stop people buying imports (I for one do not see myself stopping), it could make them resent the locals even more.

Ford and Holden (Toyota are dictated by Japan's product) need to sit up and listen, stop trying to tell the public what they should be buying and listen to the public, get that brain going again like they did with territory (unfortunately the brain behind that car is no longer with us) and build a car that suits the market, fix your quality issues and become more aggressive. They are arms of multi billion dollar organisations that have the resources. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, use what is already out there. You just have to look at the Focus, a brilliant car from base to ST, packed with features, handles well and is actually screwed together well (after 5 years my Focus hasn't a rattle, a squeak, a brake squeal or transmission whine and the interior hasn't been damaged by sun). It is both Ford and Holden's responsibility for their product not the government nor the public. If you can't make a product that the market wants then you get what you deserve.

In saying that the government (all sides and all levels) need to be brought into the 21st century. Really doing business here isn't viable, the amount of red tape, the cost of the red tape and not to mention three levels of government each with their hands in the pockets of companies just makes it impossible to do business here. I myself am even getting sick of it, the harder I work the more tax I pay to fund bogans breeding. The cost of living is just outrageous. Everyone wants something for nothing, well it's got to a point where I would rather work somewhere else and pay tax to a country that actually gives a stuff, that invests in it's own people, encourages innovation and growth.

This news may be yet the start of the end. I don't know but there needs to be a re think of the way this country does business and what people expect.

[jpd80]

A weak Aussie dollar would be ten times worse for us.
Even though imported car may be dearer (debatable against Asian cross rates)
our fuel would be 30% dearer, cn you imagine big cars and $2.00/litre fuel?

[pmacc]

There is a few things we should be doing that for some stupid reason we aint

one is dinging the ***** out of SA and getting every bit of that oil we have so we can finally not be dependent on imported oil

two is maintaing every oil refinery we have, not turing them into desal plants that we dont need

three is making more than two cars on our production lines. stuff like the Ranger and Focus should be made here, same with the captiva and colorado and the kluger and hilux. yes our wages are higher but if we produce more per man hour that the thai's, japs and the koreans (btw the japs and koreans have high wages aswell) then the labour cost arnt such an issue.

four is any government, council or anything that gets funds/taxes from australians should be buying 100% Australian unless they have needs that a aussie cant provide them. Adelaide city council for example has a fleet of v6 hiluxes that have a few shovels in the tray and a trailer behind with all the other equipment. pretty sure a VE or FG Ute could do the same job and be cheaper to run if they bought the gas models.

and finally cheaper rego for australian made vehicles paid by increases in import rego and higher stampy duty for the purchase of a import vehicle

[mik]

Originally Posted by prydey

i wonder if anyone stops to think about the consequences, if indeed the high dollar does cause local manufacturing to cease.

what happens if local manufacturing ceases, and the dollar falls. what if it falls back to 2004 levels? with no local manufacturing, car prices would skyrocket!! i bet all those cursing the govt handouts won't be so vocal then.

I think we have to weigh up what is better for the country in the long term, yes i think people would whinge when they can`t buy their cheap import crap !
but this is the bed we have made for ourselves,
we have allowed ourselves to become the import dumping ground of the planet, and i know we are..... fact ! ...................... i used to drag the crap in off the wharf for years in amounts that i`m sure most of you guys except for truckies could`nt even imagine, not to mention the variety of stuff we unload.
So do we allow ourselves to continue decimating our manufacturing, engineering, technology/ self sufficiency in many area`s ?? .............. i think we will, because we have in industry and as a country have become reliant upon IMPORTS, if govco was to change policy/reserve bank, those that have become reliant on cheap imports to survive would be in the poop for some time probably ...... like a lot of the country , and if policy was changed even if it was for the better in the long run, ...............i suspect it would be political suicide for the implementer, much like the recession we had to have......... so is it going to get better for car makers in oz, i can`t see it sadly, that`s my take on it anyway.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

As a 20 year veteran of this industry I have been telling people for a few years that the writting is on the wall.

This is crap news which ever way you want to look at it, but honestly, unless our industry can prop itself up Ford and GM seem to not care about how they could better leverage a platform into their global portfolio.

They have had a VERY long time to do so, whats frightening is that IMO atleast Holden actually gave it a chance. It seems some poor managerial decisions based on exact markets might bite them but they went down(ish) swinging.

Im all for the Gov chipping in but it cant be the determining factor as to why they stay, add incentive, dont let them make decision for you.

[jpd80]

United States, Japan, Germany, Korea all support their auto industries heavily, it is insane
to think that Australia shouldn't do the same if indeed we want to keep our local industry.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by jpd80

United States, Japan, Germany, Korea all support their auto industries heavily, it is insane
to think that Australia shouldn't do the same if indeed we want to keep our local industry.

One very significant difference between the countries you mention and Australia though......and this is the reason i don't support our Government just chucking good money after bad at the Australian auto industry.....

What is it....?

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

One very significant difference between the countries you mention and Australia though......and this is the reason i don't support our Government just chucking good money after bad at the Australian auto industry.....

What is it....?

They all have indigenous car industries.

[SumoDog68]

We signed "free trade agreement " with Thailand - they export 171 000 cars to Australia and accept 100 Territorys a year in return ....
Most of those 171 000 are high selling utes

[XplosiveR6]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

One very significant difference between the countries you mention and Australia though......and this is the reason i don't support our Government just chucking good money after bad at the Australian auto industry.....

What is it....?

They all export significantly, which brings billions of $$ to their countries. Australia's car exports are basically none in comparison.

[.FoMoCo.]

Can someone please tell me why oh why government departments do not use Australian made, wherever practical?
Is it just me, or is there something incredibly hypocritical about politicians saying they want to support local manufacturing, yet used imported cars? Why not use the local product?

[GQ_Smooth]

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

They all export significantly, which brings billions of $$ to their countries. Australia's car exports are basically none in comparison.

We do not have (or will ever have) a locally owned car manfuacturer. Major decisions in those countires are made by people who live on those countries. This is not the same for Ford, GM or Toyota (in Australia).

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

They all export significantly, which brings billions of $$ to their countries. Australia's car exports are basically none in comparison.

What do you definite as 'significantly'?? Australia would be exporting around 50% of total Australian production at the moment (Toyota mainly exports & Holden is exporting 10K or so). I'd call 50% very significantly!!!

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

They all export significantly, which brings billions of $$ to their countries. Australia's car exports are basically none in comparison.

Toyota Australia exports 70% of their production (cars and engines) - but it is Japanese multinational company so profits are probably exported too. That is the reality of multinationals - they manufacture all around the world , we don't have an Australian motor industry but local multinational manufacturing that in Ford and Holden case offer some customisation or unique product ( such as Falcon or Commodore ) for local sales.
As silly as it sounds with capable engineering australian staff from Ford and Holden united under australian owned company it would be possible to develop range of vehicles to suit local conditions and taste.
Dual cab 4x4 ute with inline 6 ,wagon , sedan and a rwd sports car would all be possible . Gina R. can afford to fund the project .

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

What do you definite as 'significantly'?? Australia would be exporting around 50% of total Australian production at the moment (Toyota mainly exports & Holden is exporting 10K or so). I'd call 50% very significantly!!!

But 50% of SFA by international standards.
The industry is not owned by us.
International trading currency is the $US.
'Northern' states have no interest in 'southern' states manufacturing problems, let alone cooperating with the Fed Govt.

[BennyH]

Originally Posted by jpd80

A weak Aussie dollar would be ten times worse for us.
Even though imported car may be dearer (debatable against Asian cross rates)
our fuel would be 30% dearer, can you imagine big cars and $2.00/litre fuel?

You are absolutely right, I couldn't believe my eyes when on a recent trip to New Zealand they were paying $2.30 for 98 premium. $1AUD was $1.23 NZ at the time.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

The engineering losses are also confirmation that Holden is no longer the engineering "home room" for any particular General Motors vehicle, and its future locally made cars will instead be adaptations of global models.

Originally Posted by eb2fairmont

That latter paragraph is the worry.

But hasn't Holden mostly made adaptions of opel and vauxhall vehicles anyway? they haven't done too many white sheet models.

Originally Posted by pmacc

one is dinging the ***** out of SA and getting every bit of that oil we have so we can finally not be dependent on imported oil

normal oil (that iraq pumps) costs 11:1 that's 11 units of oil to 1 unit of input energy (typically diesel), the oil sand in SA costs 4:1, 4 units of oil to 1 unit of input energy. it costs almost triple to extract. Canada is finding the same thing.

[ryeman]

Yeah, tar sand etc are only economic combined with v high oil prices, they don't mean cheap oil!

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by ryeman

But 50% of SFA by international standards.
The industry is not owned by us.
International trading currency is the $US.
'Northern' states have no interest in 'southern' states manufacturing problems, let alone cooperating with the Fed Govt.

Clearly!!!

Australia is a small country compared to the world & will always contribute SFA compared to the whole. This doesn't mean we can't manufacture here & export a nice percentage of what we can. We don’t need an industries as big as the US or Japan as we aren’t as big a country as them.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by jpd80

A weak Aussie dollar would be ten times worse for us.
Even though imported car may be dearer (debatable against Asian cross rates)
our fuel would be 30% dearer, cn you imagine big cars and $2.00/litre fuel?

I don’t agree.

If small cars where 5K (ish) dearer, that would put allot of them in XR6 price ranger bracket & Falcon is back in the game. In terms of petrol prices, that is where Ford's marketing department could do something to advertise the advantages of EB4 & LPi options. And maybe some of those SUV buyers might come back to a more eco-friendly large sedan & some of those smaller car buyers might come back to a large sedon that is now on par to buy up front!.

A weak Aussie dollar is the best thing for everyone!!

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

Two words: the dollar.

Indeed, the high AUD will be the death of this country.

And to think that the RBA says we should be "grateful" that the AUD is high? Turn it up FFS!

But it isn't as black and white as that. The vast majority of components in Australian 'made' cars are imported. Therefore a higher dollar makes the components cheaper to buy and import.

The local assembly and labour costs are the same as they always have been because a dollar here is always a dollar here. A higher dollar means cheaper fully imported cars, and cheaper local cars too. The balance unfortunately is in favour to the fully imported cars though.

It hurts exports, of course, but cost to export a car made out of cheaper imported parts is no different, in fact it should be less. The problem is at the other end where everyone's dollar has no value. They can't afford them, whether they are cheap or not.

A low dollar reverses the above. Parts are dearer to import, therefore the product has a higher overall cost. The difference is that fully imported cars are dearer, making locally built ones more competitive.

Also, its not a case of us having a high dollar - it's a case of everyone else (excepet China) having a low to zero value dollar.

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

As a manufacturer I have to say the high Australian dollar hasn't seen the cost of my imported raw materials (chemicals) drop by anything in the last 2-3 years. Travelling OS or buying retail OS has been the only benefit of a high $Aust and when the time comes and it devalues or the OS currencies (some of which have been deliberately devalued like the Yen), we won't be able to take advantage of cheap OS holidays, or see the Mazda 3 as the top selling car and we'll all suffer because nothing will be made here.

Good luck to the Holden workers.

Dr Smith, your comment above is very interesting and is in complete contradiction to what I wrote previously. It really got me thinking. What I wrote is in context of the car industry only. Having worked for multinationals my whole career, who manufacture and import all over the world much like the car companies do, in that context, they set their exchange rates annually and don't fluctuate from them unless something serious happens.

Unfortunately most manufacturing in Australia is on a much smaller scale than multinational top tier companies, and small production volumes (compared to bigger countries) doesn't yield best buying prices. It's here that the damage is done when manufacturing closes down.

I do believe there is more to it than the value of the dollar though. There's a nervousness out there and an uncertainty from so many that there is no willingness to invest or hire. I hope it passes after the election.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

One very significant difference between the countries you mention and Australia though......and this is the reason i don't support our Government just chucking good money after bad at the Australian auto industry.....

What is it....?

You simply cant make a car in our country, with our safety standards, to match or better world standards with a domestic budget and be competitive.

But, if you tie it in with a global platform and localise it a little then IMO you stand a better chance. Sure you will need a smaller labour force, but is better than nothing.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

A low dollar reverses the above. Parts are dearer to import, therefore the product has a higher overall cost. The difference is that fully imported cars are dearer, making locally built ones more competitive.

I do agree with what you are saying & some things in local cars will always be import & therefore more expensive. However, long term won't a cheaper dollar help our local supply chain win more business as the local product is now cheaper?

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I don’t agree.

If small cars where 5K (ish) dearer, that would put allot of them in XR6 price ranger bracket & Falcon is back in the game. In terms of petrol prices, that is where Ford's marketing department could do something to advertise the advantages of EB4 & LPi options. And maybe some of those SUV buyers might come back to a more eco-friendly large sedan & some of those smaller car buyers might come back to a large sedon that is now on par to buy up front!.

A weak Aussie dollar is the best thing for everyone!!

No, you think its good for everyone, but its not true. Some of the (and yours) previous arguements are based on the fact that the government subsidies create economic activity. ie its ok for cars to cost $25,000 to make and be exported for $20,000 (with government making up the $5,000 shortfall), because it creates economic activity. Now you are of some belief that raising imported car prices wont reduce economic activity. A 20 year old female who has a chance to buy a $15,000 small car is not going to go and buy a falcon if that small car now costs $25,000. She is either going to go and borrow the extra $10,000 (and divert the $40 a week she would have spent on entertainment etc - ie more likely the money will be spent in australia), or she will hold off on buying that car for a few more years. Multiply this over the 500,000 or so light, small and some medium cars that are imported each year, and you will destroy the australian car industry.

A weak Australian dollar would destroy alot more Australian families than a strong one. Petrol prices rise, food prices rise, financing costs rise. Devaluing the Australian dollar in half basically works out to halving an australian workers wage (its that simple)

[ryeman]

Japan is going to be in trouble then, at least the public!
The once high $US dollar and the weaker euro has resulted in Germany exporting more the the entire USA and that goes back well before the GFC.
Currency wars are a big worry now!