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Old 16-06-2018, 10:03 PM   #1
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Default Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/whe...own-dieselgate

The printed edition in the Magazine is much more detailed but the message is the same. Too often people are sold cars with an engine that's not suited to their driving conditions.

From article -

"ONE IN five new vehicles sold in Australia is now diesel powered. For many owners, buying one is starting the clock on a financial time bomb."

"While the glossy advertising touts gutsy performance, miserly fuel consumption and legendary diesel durability, the ownership experience can prove very different, especially for city-based drivers."

“Repair bills above $10,000 are not uncommon for common-rail diesels,”
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Old 16-06-2018, 11:13 PM   #2
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

The issue is twofold:
Firstly, in an era when petrol engines needed almost constant fiddling with the distributors and carburettors, diesels were a lot simpler to keep running.
Secondly, older diesel engines tended to be over-engineered truck engines, whopping great chunks of cast iron that never broke.
Those old diesels were slow-revving, and ran out of Puff at about 2,500rpm, but yes became legendary for their longevity.
Modern diesels are lightweight and highly stressed. Consequently no less liable to break down, and more expensive to fix when they do.
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Old 17-06-2018, 10:24 AM   #3
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

Not sure whats behind the fear mongering (lobbying ?), but theres a few pages to scare potential diesel buyers off, with stories about
$3K DPF replacement (parts only), "$6K not uncommon " and end cost to user $8-$12K for diagnostic, removal, replacement labour are added"

sulphur reduction resulted in many more injector replacement jobs ($2.5K), $3K fuel pump replacement costs, with a repair job likely to cost $5500

These reasons were why I sold my Mondeo at 194,000 km a year ago, but none of these were ever an issue for me to that point in time.

With costs of petrol at the moment (and only likely to increase) I could afford the repairs with the money saved. The article also ignores the fact that modern petrol motors now have DI and similar fuel pressures
QED similar injector/fuel pump costs possible ?
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Old 17-06-2018, 10:36 AM   #4
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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Originally Posted by 383hq View Post
Not sure whats behind the fear mongering (lobbying ?), but theres a few pages to scare potential diesel buyers off, with stories about
$3K DPF replacement (parts only), "$6K not uncommon " and end cost to user $8-$12K for diagnostic, removal, replacement labour are added"

sulphur reduction resulted in many more injector replacement jobs ($2.5K), $3K fuel pump replacement costs, with a repair job likely to cost $5500

These reasons were why I sold my Mondeo at 194,000 km a year ago, but none of these were ever an issue for me to that point in time.

With costs of petrol at the moment (and only likely to increase) I could afford the repairs with the money saved. The article also ignores the fact that modern petrol motors now have DI and similar fuel pressures
QED similar injector/fuel pump costs possible ?
Yes, worthy consideration. Also, petrol engines have an extra expense. Ignition systems require maintainence and replacement as well.
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Old 17-06-2018, 11:07 AM   #5
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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Originally Posted by 383hq View Post
Not sure whats behind the fear mongering (lobbying ?), but theres a few pages to scare potential diesel buyers off, with stories about
$3K DPF replacement (parts only), "$6K not uncommon " and end cost to user $8-$12K for diagnostic, removal, replacement labour are added"

sulphur reduction resulted in many more injector replacement jobs ($2.5K), $3K fuel pump replacement costs, with a repair job likely to cost $5500

These reasons were why I sold my Mondeo at 194,000 km a year ago, but none of these were ever an issue for me to that point in time.

With costs of petrol at the moment (and only likely to increase) I could afford the repairs with the money saved. The article also ignores the fact that modern petrol motors now have DI and similar fuel pressures
QED similar injector/fuel pump costs possible ?
What’s the fuel consumption of a diesel Mondeo Vs a petrol one? Surely savings wouldn’t cover the costs of anything were to go wrong with the Diesel engine.
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Old 17-06-2018, 11:14 AM   #6
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

All modern engines are expensive to repair due to the complex new technology. The direct-injection parts on GM's HFV6 (Alloytech to you and me) cost an eye-watering amount. This is where the Barra engine had an advantage - proven technology which wasn't as expensive.
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Old 17-06-2018, 11:15 AM   #7
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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Yes, worthy consideration. Also, petrol engines have an extra expense. Ignition systems require maintainence and replacement as well.
Yes that’s true, but most modern petrol cars have plugs with 100k replacement, and coils should be good for more than that.

Diesels have DPFs to ‘maintain’, plus turbos and replaceable fuel filters. It seems most petrol cars are starting to come with the filter built into in tank fuel pump and are not a regular service item. Not sure if it’s still the case, but diesels used to have shorter time between services. Plus every part of a Diesel engine seeks to cost 3x that of a petrol engine.

I’m by no means anti diesel. I know they have their place, but as much anti diesel lobbying goes on, there’s also a lot of uneducated love for Diesel engines.

Why any diesel hatchbacks exist baffles me. I can see zero point for a diesel Golf for example. And why anyone who lives in a city and sees regular traffic and short trips would buy a diesel baffles me too.
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Old 17-06-2018, 11:58 AM   #8
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

Plus, modern petrol cars are also now being fitted with PDF.
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Old 17-06-2018, 01:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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Why any diesel hatchbacks exist baffles me. I can see zero point for a diesel Golf for example. And why anyone who lives in a city and sees regular traffic and short trips would buy a diesel baffles me too.
^^^Agree. Have about 10-12 workmates who drive short distances (10-15 km's) to work who own small diesel powered vehicles. Almost all of them believe they are better off and so is the "climate/environment"

Cannot understand why Australia is so flooded with diesel passenger vehicles, let alone small capacity diesel vehicles?? Are we Aussies that easily led by the dealers? When pretty much every other modern country on earth is moving away from diesel, we seem to be taking to diesel cars like ducks to water!
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Old 17-06-2018, 01:55 PM   #10
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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What’s the fuel consumption of a diesel Mondeo Vs a petrol one? Surely savings wouldn’t cover the costs of anything were to go wrong with the Diesel engine.
Contrary to the wheels article(s) I could not tell you what it costs to repair the Mondeo. Got rid of it at 194,000 km. I did replace a parking bulb once.

I can tell you I would get between 850-1200 km for 60 (ish) litres.

I get 400-650 km for 60 (ish) litres in a FG falcon 2. I expect twice the kilometres before I worry about large repair bills in the FG. I do wonder whether I can still expect coils/head gasket at 180,000 km.

I'll let you work out payback/amortisation/estimated repair costs/timing on X/Y/Z km / annual driving.
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Old 17-06-2018, 01:58 PM   #11
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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I’m by no means anti diesel. I know they have their place, but as much anti diesel lobbying goes on, there’s also a lot of uneducated love for Diesel engines.

Why any diesel hatchbacks exist baffles me. I can see zero point for a diesel Golf for example. And why anyone who lives in a city and sees regular traffic and short trips would buy a diesel baffles me too.
This is 100% truth.

Diesel makes complete sense in trucks and utes, bigger SUV's etc, but a hatchback?

I reckon the uneducated love comes from the torque. A diesel goes well in a straight line so they're awesome! Never mind all that extra weight over the front wheels, the low revs, the sound, the smell...
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Old 17-06-2018, 02:23 PM   #12
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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Plus, modern petrol cars are also now being fitted with PDF.
Those particle filters are a lot different to the ones used on diesels, much lower cost.

Not surprised that anything Euro diesel (BMW MB) would cost an arm and a leg when it fails.
I'd love to know the situation with say, Japanese or Korean diesels or Ford/GM, are they the same
in regards failure and cost to repair?
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Old 17-06-2018, 04:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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Those particle filters are a lot different to the ones used on diesels, much lower cost.

Not surprised that anything Euro diesel (BMW MB) would cost an arm and a leg when it fails.
I'd love to know the situation with say, Japanese or Korean diesels or Ford/GM, are they the same
in regards failure and cost to repair?
I read an article re a DPF replacement on a Toyota and it was around $14,000, that was through a dealer using Toyota parts. I believe there are aftermarket DPFs available but I am not sure for what makes and models.
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Old 17-06-2018, 07:24 PM   #14
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

I wonder what a straight bit of pipe and a tune to delete dpf would cost?
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Old 17-06-2018, 07:25 PM   #15
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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^^^Agree. Have about 10-12 workmates who drive short distances (10-15 km's) to work who own small diesel powered vehicles. Almost all of them believe they are better off and so is the "climate/environment"

Cannot understand why Australia is so flooded with diesel passenger vehicles, let alone small capacity diesel vehicles?? Are we Aussies that easily led by the dealers? When pretty much every other modern country on earth is moving away from diesel, we seem to be taking to diesel cars like ducks to water!
Whilst sales of vehicles with diesel engines is increasing, this has more to do with the boom in sales of dual cab utes. Passenger cars with a diesel engines are actually declining.


I too can't see the point in a diesel hatchback, especially since petrol engines have become so efficient.


The thing is, customers are told by a salesman that they will save so much money on fuel with a diesel variant compared to a petrol model. Salesman and dealers have a vested interest in selling a diesel because they command a premium over a petrol, increasing revenue, and cost more to service, increasing revenue in the high profit service department.
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Old 17-06-2018, 08:06 PM   #16
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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I wonder what a straight bit of pipe and a tune to delete dpf would cost?
Don,t know the intricities of dpf,s but we used to cut open cat converters tip the guts out and reweld the seams. Never heard of anyone ever getting done for it,and besides most cops wouldn,t be getting down and having a look,(probably wouldn,t know what to look for anyway).
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Old 17-06-2018, 08:07 PM   #17
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

I know a few people who downsized a few years ago from 6cyl Commodores and Falcons and they drove the Diesel and Petrol versions and it was the torque of the Diesel that sold them.
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Old 17-06-2018, 08:35 PM   #18
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

So from what I'm understanding, diesels with particle filters need to be driven about
once a week for about 15 minutes at around 60 KPH at around 2,000 rpm to get the
regen cyle going and burn off all the particulates in the filter, otherwise there's a risk
that lots of low engine speed running will clog up the filter and EGR systems.

A little bit of education to new owners would go a long way towards expensive problems
as i think most owners would get the idea quickly and make sure their diesels run properly.
maybe even a bit of tech on the dash to trll drivers when next regen is coming due..

Bet that EcoLPI Falcon is looking pretty good about now...
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Old 17-06-2018, 08:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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I know a few people who downsized a few years ago from 6cyl Commodores and Falcons and they drove the Diesel and Petrol versions and it was the torque of the Diesel that sold them.
Diesel vs petrol is a hard thing to compare. So I want from a poxy 2.4L petrol van to a 2.2L diesel ute as a work car, my manager went from a 4L v6 petrol ute to a 3L diesel ute and my boss shifted from a twin turbo 4.4L SUV to a 3L diesel with 2 or 3 turbos. So I dont get the luxury of having an automatic transmission and I think that aids when when it comes to keeping a turbo diesel in its happy rev range and where all the torque is. So all the 3 different diesels at work, the common consensus is yeah they dont notice the heavier loads. Myself going from a poxy little petrol thing, that van was so much easier to drive running light then running light in the diesel ute. Mainly due to turbo lag and both being manuals I have to be the one to think about shift point and all that. My manager and boss both agree that you have to change your driving styles because turbo diesels aren't as point and shoot as petrol engines but the torque is the advantage towing. Loaded or not a diesel will go up hills at a similar rate as opposed to a petrol car that strains under loads. My work ute doesn't have a dpf and it has had work recieve a warning from the EPA for air pollution. In my personal time I do tow a boat and my tool of choice for that is not the diesel ute, it's my petrol car.
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Old 17-06-2018, 09:55 PM   #20
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

Last paragraph of the quoted article :

But there are ways that diesel-powered owners can avoid problems, and the solution is as simple as picking up a magazine. All you need to know is contained in our special report in the June edition of Wheels, on sale now at newsstands, or via Google Play or iTunes.

Click bait article followed by buy our magazine and we will educate you :-) .
As for diesel small hatchbacks , those are popular in european countries and euro manufacturers offer the same drivetrains here (Golf ,Astra , Focus etc.) Japanese and Koreans never really have taken up to small diesel vehicles to the same extent.
For larger SUVs and Commercials diesel is probably better option as you wont find Ranger ,Hilux or Prado with petrol engines on offer.
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Old 17-06-2018, 10:00 PM   #21
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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^^^Agree. Have about 10-12 workmates who drive short distances (10-15 km's) to work who own small diesel powered vehicles. Almost all of them believe they are better off and so is the "climate/environment"

Cannot understand why Australia is so flooded with diesel passenger vehicles, let alone small capacity diesel vehicles?? Are we Aussies that easily led by the dealers? When pretty much every other modern country on earth is moving away from diesel, we seem to be taking to diesel cars like ducks to water!
Those diesel Golfs and similar are actually pretty good to drive , high torque at low revs gives them that effortless feel of a larger capacity engine.
I prefer 2.0 L diesel Golf compared to 1.2L turbo petrol . 2.0 GTI or R is better again.
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Old 17-06-2018, 10:38 PM   #22
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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Bet that EcoLPI Falcon is looking pretty good about now...
Lolwot

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Old 18-06-2018, 10:18 AM   #23
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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What’s the fuel consumption of a diesel Mondeo Vs a petrol one? Surely savings wouldn’t cover the costs of anything were to go wrong with the Diesel engine.
I suppose this isn't an issue for the new car buyer that rids themselves of the car after the warranty has expired.

what I find interesting is the reputation that Diesel cars get better resale.

I've often pointed out its still relative to the higher purchase price.

I can see the point if your Buying an old Prado to Tow a Van, but in the case of a 2nd hand Mondeo. I dont think I'd pay more for a diesel.
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Old 18-06-2018, 11:02 AM   #24
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

Biggest problem with diesels is the emissions crap, kills engines. Be it EGR, DPF etc

Injectors and pressure pumps can be expensive but really should only fail early with bad fuel or manufacturing faults.

I wouldnt buy a diesel in a passenger car, the ecoboost style motors are too good.
But in a 4wd diesel is the go but they certainly come with trade offs these days.
Glad my landcruiser was one of the last without DPF and the EGR system might have stopped working ;)
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Old 18-06-2018, 11:10 AM   #25
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

I can answer why we have Diesel hatchbacks..


Economy.

Our MC diesel hatch uses way less then our MA sedan, and is gutsy...so it handles hills as good, if not better than any falcon ive owned.

Not as cool sounding as the XR8 though.
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Old 18-06-2018, 01:43 PM   #26
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

I think that in a few years wrecking yards will be full of small diesel cars that are beyond economical repair because of clogged DPF filters.
And are diesel vehicles really that much more economical than petrol, recently I drove in convoy with a friend in his Amarok ute, me in my FGX Na XR6 from Goulburn to Glenrowan, a distance of 450 km, sitting on the speed limit, 110kph, the whole time. The Falcon used $58 of petrol, (8.7 l 100km), the Amarok $64 of diesel, and the Falcon left the Amarok for dead accelerating up the long hills.
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Old 18-06-2018, 02:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

I was never a diesel an until I got a diesel AWD Territory to tow a caravan

What a machine.

Quiet
Comfortable
Relaxing to drive long distances between Chew-Mit and Yap-Hoon which we do regularly. 1700kms.

And no particle filter.

And no overstressed engine ancillary components (so it is not as economical) which the motoring writers call an old fashion engine.

Oh and Wheels used to be a must read for me each month - I'm picky now.

The online website reviews lack any in-depth analysis and could well be written from the manufacturers' brochure.

I logged on and asked about the review I read whether the car had stop start tech, and what sort of spare it had.

The message was deleted.

So I wrote another message asking why, saying that these are important considerations to me and should appear in every car review.

That was deleted too.

I don't buy any motoring magazines now except Unique Cars
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Old 18-06-2018, 05:13 PM   #28
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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I think that in a few years wrecking yards will be full of small diesel cars that are beyond economical repair because of clogged DPF filters.
people (including myself) have been trotting this line out for years now, but its just not eventuating. Apart from a few problem models here and there, its hardly getting a mention. There are also many places around now that do DPF cleaning etc however most manufacturers these days seem to have a pretty good auto/manual burn cycle.

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And are diesel vehicles really that much more economical than petrol, recently I drove in convoy with a friend in his Amarok ute, me in my FGX Na XR6 from Goulburn to Glenrowan, a distance of 450 km, sitting on the speed limit, 110kph, the whole time. The Falcon used $58 of petrol, (8.7 l 100km), the Amarok $64 of diesel, and the Falcon left the Amarok for dead accelerating up the long hills.
Horses for courses. I replaced my FG falcon with a diesel territory because I bought a camper van. Towed it 3 times with my falcon and about 4 times with the terry, and its chalk and cheese.

around town my work commute is about 1L/100km in favour of the territory (10L v 9L /100km) and on a highway run (family holiday not towing) its about half a litre in favour of the terry (8L v 7.5L /100km).

Of course, technology and advancement of petrol engines means the goal posts are constantly moving. If I wasn't towing, I wouldn't buy a diesel, as they are very expensive if things go wrong (turbo's, injectors, fuel pumps etc).

I don't think its possible to make any overall general statement saying diesel is a con, because everyone's situation will be different. people need to work out for themselves what is the best option.
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Old 18-06-2018, 06:59 PM   #29
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Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

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people (including myself) have been trotting this line out for years now, but its just not eventuating. Apart from a few problem models here and there, its hardly getting a mention. There are also many places around now that do DPF cleaning etc however most manufacturers these days seem to have a pretty good auto/manual burn cycle.
The printed Wheels article mentioned that a specialist DPF service centre is seeing vehicles with melted DFP's caused by dealers forcing multiple burn cycles in an attempt to clear them.
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Old 18-06-2018, 09:30 PM   #30
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Location: Melbourne's Eastern burbs'
Posts: 3,433
Default Re: Wheels special investigation: Australia’s own Dieselgate

Never mind
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Ranger PxII Wildtrak - Magnetic Grey
RenaultSPORT Megane RS265 Red Bull RB8
Not to mention a couple more cheeky toys

Last edited by Danny; 18-06-2018 at 09:35 PM.
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