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Old 11-02-2019, 04:41 PM   #31
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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The best way to fix our political system is to vote differently at every election. You don’t have to like them, just vote differently. There should be no such thing as a safe seat.

That is because most voters are sheep. I was one of those rusted on voters until my mid 30s. Since then I vote based on who is the best candidate. But it is a moot point as my state and federal seats have always been won by a Labor candidate.
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Old 11-02-2019, 05:12 PM   #32
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

State based, we were absolute blue ribbon Nationals, but 2 elections ago an Independent won, she held a balance of power in the Lower House so had some power, with the last election the Labor thumped the Libs/Nats so she doesn't have as much power, but they are rewarding her for supporting some of their projects in their last term





As far as the USA goes, they get everything they deserve. I am a regular on an American drag racing forum. Trump is talking up the economy which is forcing it up, but some of his policies are just stupid. Interesting actually have a look at how many of his promises have got up and there isn't too many of them.
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Old 11-02-2019, 08:24 PM   #33
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by Big Trev View Post
there should be NO middle class welfare.

Middle class welfare was introduced by Howard/Costello as a huge vote buying exercise and it worked (for a while), now all generations have to wear the burden of having to pay taxes to support 2 income families spending habits, tell me how that is fair?
Middle class welfare was around before Howard and Costello. On your logic, it’s not fair that I have to pay tax to support aged pensions when some of them live in million dollar houses. And why should I pay for negative gearing (a cost to the budget of $4.5 billion per year)? That benefits baby boomers and Gen Y a whole lot more than Gen Z and Millenials. It’s fair because all that keeps our economy ticking along. Take any of it away and it’s craps the bed.

China can get rid of their middle class welfare too. AThe US as well. Then Australia will be really better off when their economy collapses.

Like I said, you can take it away, have fun waiting in line at Centrelink.

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Old 11-02-2019, 08:43 PM   #34
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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there should be NO middle class welfare.

Middle class welfare was introduced by Howard/Costello as a huge vote buying exercise and it worked (for a while), now all generations have to wear the burden of having to pay taxes to support 2 income families spending habits, tell me how that is fair?
In response to the recession in the early 1990s, the Keating government further increased the generosity of family payments, and expanded access to families in the middle class.

Question for you Trev, when Whitlan introduced free university for all was that middle class welfare?

Medicare for all and free schooling accessed by the middle class is a form of middle class welfare programs well before Howard.

I'm against the baby bonus but it worked....surprisingly.....more tax payers will pay back that particular scheme.

https://mccrindle.com.au/insights/bl...us-generation/

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Old 11-02-2019, 10:05 PM   #35
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

“This stuff is really sad,” she wrote. “The GOP is so intellectually bankrupt that they no longer engage to debate issues in good faith, but instead seek to lie, distort, name-call, target, & destroy people/communities w any means possible.” Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-Looney-TunesNY)


Shapiro offered $10,000 to a charity of Ocasio-Cortez’s choice or to her campaign if she took him up on his offer. He said the congressional candidate had accused Republicans of being afraid to debate, and here he was ready to debate.

But reply she did on Thursday, and in the process advanced a jarring simile: Shapiro’s very polite debate challenge, she said, was akin to catcalling.

“Just like catcalling, I don’t owe a response to unsolicited requests from men with bad intentions,” she tweeted.

That prompted a new round of conservative outrage, accusing Ocasio-Cortez of playing the gender card.

“Crying sexism in order to avoid a debate of ideas is not a feminism I want any part of,” said Erielle Davidson, a contributor to The Federalist and TownHall.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:34 AM   #36
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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On your logic, it’s not fair that I have to pay tax to support aged pensions when some of them live in million dollar houses.
We should be supporting those who can't help themselves - really simple philosophy

Maybe as I am closer to that retirement age than you, but fortunately the family home is exempt from the assets investigation when you apply for the age pension HOWEVER, your furniture, your car, maybe a caravan, all other assets EXCEPT the physical house. You must also remember that most 'old' people bought or built their homes LONG before there was a housing boom, so why should they be punished because housing prices went through the roof - you thinking is flawed

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And why should I pay for negative gearing (a cost to the budget of $4.5 billion per year)? That benefits baby boomers and Gen Y a whole lot more than Gen Z and Millenials. It’s fair because all that keeps our economy ticking along. Take any of it away and it’s craps the bed.
I am a fan of getting rid of negative gearing for existing houses, however they should keep it in place for new homes. Do you actually understand how it works? You can 'negative gear' shares as well, did you know that?

Building is a huge boost for the economy the flow-on effect is huge, swapping existing houses between investors does nothing for the economy but a lot for the investors

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China can get rid of their middle class welfare too. AThe US as well. Then Australia will be really better off when their economy collapses.

Like I said, you can take it away, have fun waiting in line at Centrelink.
what is the point of that argument, it is pointless
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:40 AM   #37
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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In response to the recession in the early 1990s, the Keating government further increased the generosity of family payments, and expanded access to families in the middle class.
child endowment has been around for ever, all people who had kids were entitled to it - nothing new here, other than a new name

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Question for you Trev, when Whitlan introduced free university for all was that middle class welfare?
obviously no, because it allowed ALL classes access - typical old school Labor thinking

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Medicare for all and free schooling accessed by the middle class is a form of middle class welfare programs well before Howard.
no, because ALL Australians had access to Medicare - do you really understand this argument, because it looks to me like you don't. I was at voting age when Whitlam was PM

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I'm against the baby bonus but it worked....surprisingly.....more tax payers will pay back that particular scheme.

https://mccrindle.com.au/insights/bl...us-generation/
it was stupid, but the Abbott Government did the same thing, but was called something different
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:12 AM   #38
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You need to remember that the Labor Party of old (Whitlam, Hawke, Keating) is NOTHING like the Labor Party of today, you shouldn't judge the decisions of the past on the Labor Party of today. Gough was pretty much the last of the 'true believers', believe it or not but Latham exhibited the 'true believer' traits but the delivery was ****ed up
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Old 12-02-2019, 09:20 AM   #39
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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AOC "Where we’re going, we won’t need steel."

National mobilization our economy through 14 infrastructure and
industrial projects. Every project strives to remove greenhouse gas
emissions and pollution from every sector of our economy:
o Build infrastructure to create resiliency against climate change-related
disasters
o Repair and upgrade U.S. infrastructure. ASCE estimates this is $4.6
trillion at minimum.
o Meet 100% of power demand through clean and renewable energy
sources
o Build energy-efficient, distributed smart grids and ensure affordable
access to electricity
o Upgrade or replace every building in US for state-of-the-art energy
efficiency
o Massively expand clean manufacturing (like solar panel factories, wind
turbine factories, battery and storage manufacturing, energy efficient
manufacturing components) and remove pollution and greenhouse gas
emissions from manufacturing
o Work with farmers and ranchers to create a sustainable, pollution and
greenhouse gas free, food system that ensures universal access to
healthy food and expands independent family farming
o Totally overhaul transportation by massively expanding electric vehicle
manufacturing, build charging stations everywhere, build out highspeed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary, create
affordable public transit available to all, with goal to replace every
combustion-engine vehicle

o Mitigate long-term health effects of climate change and pollution
o Remove greenhouse gases from our atmosphere and pollution through
afforestation, preservation, and other methods of restoring our natural
ecosystems
o Restore all our damaged and threatened ecosystems
o Clean up all the existing hazardous waste sites and abandoned sites
o Identify new emission sources and create solutions to eliminate those
emissions
o Make the US the leader in addressing climate change and share our
technology, expertise and products with the rest of the world to bring
about a global Green New Deal

A little more.

Build on FDR’s second bill of rights by guaranteeing:
 A job with a family-sustaining wage, family and medical
leave, vacations, and retirement security
 High-quality education, including higher education and
trade schools
 Clean air and water and access to nature
 Healthy food
 High-quality health care
 Safe, affordable, adequate housing
 Economic environment free of monopolies
 Economic security for all who are unable or unwilling to
work
It would be good to see these fourteen projects come into fruition.
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:22 AM   #40
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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You need to remember that the Labor Party of old (Whitlam, Hawke, Keating) is NOTHING like the Labor Party of today, you shouldn't judge the decisions of the past on the Labor Party of today. Gough was pretty much the last of the 'true believers', believe it or not but Latham exhibited the 'true believer' traits but the delivery was ****ed up
Sure some working class people went to University but overwhelmingly it benefited the middle class free university.

Free University was the definition of middle class welfare.

Like most of the lefts ideas it gets judged on the "Intention" not the the outcome as you are doing in your reply.

The problem you have in your argument is that from the profligate Whitlam government all governments for the last 43 years have kept Federal Government spending at around 23-25% of GDP both sides.

For you to single out the Howard years for middle class welfare is intellectually dishonest.

Keating did increase welfare to the middle class during the recession. It is in the budget papers and a well-known fact. I'm not commenting on whether it was a poor decision or a beneficial policy, simply pointing out that you are critical of just one government as if all ills come from them. Simply dishonest.

It is particularly amusing considering Rudd/Gillard followed.

The political left in general has been able to claim that they have more compassion for the less fortunate, and to depict their opponents as lacking in compassion for others. For none of these assertions have they felt a need to offer hard evidence.

Economics and politics must both deal with a basic fact of life: What everybody wants adds up to more than what is possible. Economics deals with this by rationing through prices. Politics deals with it by lying and promising more than it can possibly deliver - Thomas Sowell

Politicians have learned to call their spending of the taxpayers' money 'investment,' even when it is just pouring money down a bottomless pit, in order to win votes from the recipients

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Old 12-02-2019, 11:45 AM   #41
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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It would be good to see these fourteen projects come into fruition.
If that were true there is nothing stopping you getting off the grid and living in a commune for example that is self-sufficient.

But you won't do that.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/43282...-emily-zanotti

Saturday, Ocasio-Cortez and her advisers began running a full-scale operation to distract and deflect from criticism of the Green New Deal, suggesting first that conservatives had circulated a handful of "doctored" versions of her FAQ, and then, when that line of attack failed, that the posted FAQ, which suggested, among other things, a universal income even for those "unwilling" to work, was an irrelevant "early draft."

But instead of laying the blame where it belonged — squarely at the feet of Ocasio-Cortez and her advisers, who clearly botched their own Green New Deal rollout — the media immediately blamed conservatives for "pouncing" on Ocasio-Cortez's plan.

Business Insider provided the most egregious example, accusing conservatives of unfairly "attacking" Ocasio-Cortez for "accidentally" leaking a document posted to her website and delivered directly to several members of the news media.

Business Insider was ultimately forced to rewrite the headline and issue a new tweet after right-leaning reporters pointed out that the leak appeared to be far from "accidental." Ocasio-Cortez's team posted the FAQ to the congresswoman's official website, and members of her press team sent a pitch containing the FAQ to a number of high-profile media outlets, including National Public Radio, which posted the document in full on its website as soon as the congresswoman's embargo on the material lifted.

Even The Washington Post, which could not deny that the FAQ appeared in multiple outlets on Thursday and Friday, tried to sow skepticism about the document's validity, calling the sheet a "mystery."

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Old 12-02-2019, 12:52 PM   #42
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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If that were true there is nothing stopping you getting off the grid and living in a commune for example that is self-sufficient.

But you won't do that.
There is no connection between your personal view on what I should do with my life, and the fourteen projects you had listed.

What's the issue with striving to achieve ANY of the fourteen points?

Agadoo doo doo push pineapple shake the tree - Thomas Sowell
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:34 PM   #43
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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There is no connection between your personal view on what I should do with my life, and the fourteen projects you had listed.

What's the issue with striving to achieve ANY of the fourteen points?
National mobilization our economy through 14 infrastructure and
industrial projects. Every project strives to remove greenhouse gas
emissions and pollution from every sector of our economy:


Did you not read the goal at the start?

Your rhetoric does not match your actions.

WASHINGTON, DC — The Green New Deal championed by Democratic New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez officially rolled out Thursday afternoon, but some proponents of the bill appeared unable to explain how commercial and private air travel will survive, should the legislation ever become successful. (RELATED: Does Ocasio-Cortez’s Green New Deal Outlaw Every Building In The Country?)

Ocasio-Cortez’s Green New Deal calls to:

“Totally overhaul transportation by massively expanding electric vehicle manufacturing, build charging stations everywhere, build out high-speed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary, create affordable public transit available to all, with goal to replace every combustion-engine vehicle.”

The Daily Caller spoke with Democratic Massachusetts Sen. Ed Markey, a major supporter of the package, about the lack of the combustion engine in the future, as well as how the airline industry would be affected by the plan.

https://www.dailycaller.com/2019/02/...ustion-engine/

We have no idea if this would even benefit society, for a start lithium is needed for batteries and as everyone in the automotive industryis aware batteries don't last forever and have their own environmental problems.

The market should determine who drives what, not a government.

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Old 12-02-2019, 02:02 PM   #44
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Free University was the definition of middle class welfare.
in your opinion, but I am sure it wasn't Goughs, Hawkes or Keatings
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:05 PM   #45
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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It is particularly amusing considering Rudd/Gillard followed.
that period was an exceptional point in time and something your right wing Governments have refused to acknowledge at all costs, despite significant world leaders praising the swift decisive action taken by Rudd, Swan & Ken Henry (but hasn't he fallen from grace recently) and I am no Rudd fan
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:09 PM   #46
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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National mobilization our economy through 14 infrastructure and
industrial projects. Every project strives to remove greenhouse gas
emissions and pollution from every sector of our economy:


Did you not read the goal at the start?
Yes, I read that.

Quote:
Your rhetoric does not match your actions.
Your comment is off-tangent.

Quote:
WASHINGTON, DC — The Green New Deal championed by Democratic New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez officially rolled out Thursday afternoon, but some proponents of the bill appeared unable to explain how commercial and private air travel will survive, should the legislation ever become successful. (RELATED: Does Ocasio-Cortez’s Green New Deal Outlaw Every Building In The Country?)

Ocasio-Cortez’s Green New Deal calls to:

“Totally overhaul transportation by massively expanding electric vehicle manufacturing, build charging stations everywhere, build out high-speed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary, create affordable public transit available to all, with goal to replace every combustion-engine vehicle.”

The Daily Caller spoke with Democratic Massachusetts Sen. Ed Markey, a major supporter of the package, about the lack of the combustion engine in the future, as well as how the airline industry would be affected by the plan.

https://www.dailycaller.com/2019/02/...ustion-engine/

We have no idea if this would even benefit society, for a start lithium is needed for batteries and as everyone in the automotive industryis aware batteries don't last forever and have their own environmental problems.

The market should determine who drives what, not a government.
Let’s go back 120 years and defend the blacksmith and farrier industries. The airline & automotive industries didn’t even exist then. We had no idea back then if the automobile would even benefit society, for a start pertroleum was needed, the industry was aware oil wells don’t last forever and have their own environmental problems.

As for market vs government for determining who drives what - our government made it viable for Falcons, Valiants, Kingswoods & Commodores to be produced locally in the first place.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:44 PM   #47
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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As for market vs government for determining who drives what - our government made it viable for Falcons, Valiants, Kingswoods & Commodores to be produced locally in the first place.
My grandfather put together Model- Ts in his garage on Brunswick St Fitzroy in the 20s. The government played no role in this.

This thread is about AOC.

AOC has claimed that the world will end in 12 years due to climate change.

You may not personally support her date but it appears people in general are claiming we must change our ways to save the planet in varying degrees.

AOC has presented her "New Green Deal" which proposes some major changes.

Changes that will impact how our society works.

Mcflux has publicly declared support for AOC's ideas.

Every proposal requires legislation and enforcement.

Zipping notes that he owns a much loved FG F6. AOC wants to ban combustion engines. Mcflux supports this.

Zipping would like to know if armed authorities are going to come to his property to confiscate his personal property at the point of a gun in the name of saving the world, then zipping thinks its fair to ask those that support these policies to justify them.

When the people who tell me there is a problem start acting like there is a problem I might take them more seriously.

My comment is not off-tangent, you want to ask of me what I believe you are not doing voluntary right now.

Zipping is merely pointing to the hypocrisy.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:52 PM   #48
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that period was an exceptional point in time and something your right wing Governments have refused to acknowledge at all costs, despite significant world leaders praising the swift decisive action taken by Rudd, Swan & Ken Henry (but hasn't he fallen from grace recently) and I am no Rudd fan
I'm not being critical of Rudd Keating etc at all.

I'm simply saying that all governments of all persuasions have contributed enormously to middle class welfare.

I chose free university because that has played out.

Even as a died in the wool Labor man I thought that would be the best example to use as surely you are aware that some working people went to university as a result of the policy but overwhelmingly it was the middle class who availed themselves of free university.

I'm saying to you that your partisan view of politics is blinding you to the fact that all politicians buy votes, you just excuse it when your mob does it as your above post demonstrates.

Stimulus spending/programs from Rudd/Gillard was still happening into the Abbott government well well past the GFC.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:45 PM   #49
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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I think I will disagree with that, all Howard did with the benefits of Hawke/Keatings legacy was blow it - setting us up now to deal with middle class welfare, you know paying the child care bill of people who are both working but need child care, of course there was that other gem, 'the baby bonus' FFS!!!!
Of all the welfare systems that govco has in place, supporting those who actuallly want to work to contribute is the one you have an issue with?
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:56 PM   #50
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AOC is as dumb as a hammer. Only got elected because her district is majority hispanic. Day after day she says stupider and stupider things. It's got to the point where she is just a laughing stock. She was a 26 year old bartender who could not even afford to rent a place in Washington when she got elected.

My favourite thing she has done was when she was questioned about something stupid she had said, and instead of answering the question she started a rant about Trump being an anti-semite. Someone should have mentioned to her that Trumps son in law, grandkids and a few other members of the Trump family are Jewish. And Trump has been a massive supporter of Israel

So anti-semetic

Her new green deal was just the icing on the cake. One of the Q&A questions on the website said "how will the new green deal be paid for? Answer - the same way we paid for the old green deal" ie. they have no idea
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:00 PM   #51
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by zipping View Post
My grandfather put together Model- Ts in his garage on Brunswick St Fitzroy in the 20s. The government played no role in this.

This thread is about AOC.

AOC has claimed that the world will end in 12 years due to climate change.

You may not personally support her date but it appears people in general are claiming we must change our ways to save the planet in varying degrees.

AOC has presented her "New Green Deal" which proposes some major changes.

Changes that will impact how our society works.

Mcflux has publicly declared support for AOC's ideas.

Every proposal requires legislation and enforcement.

Zipping notes that he owns a much loved FG F6. AOC wants to ban combustion engines. Mcflux supports this.

Zipping would like to know if armed authorities are going to come to his property to confiscate his personal property at the point of a gun in the name of saving the world, then zipping thinks its fair to ask those that support these policies to justify them.

When the people who tell me there is a problem start acting like there is a problem I might take them more seriously.

My comment is not off-tangent, you want to ask of me what I believe you are not doing voluntary right now.

Zipping is merely pointing to the hypocrisy.
Good thing for you that you live in Australia then and she lives in the USA.

You're getting your panties in a bunch over a first term Congresswoman in the USA who has stars in her eyes and is lapping up the attention.

As per usual, people who spend too much time in right wing media outlets are overreacting to this person who will not impact them but it gives them a lightning rod so they can be angry about something.

Turn your computer off and go outside, maybe polish you car and enjoy it before she bans it....
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:15 PM   #52
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Good thing for you that you live in Australia then and she lives in the USA.

You're getting your panties in a bunch over a first term Congresswoman in the USA who has stars in her eyes and is lapping up the attention.

Turn your computer off and go outside, maybe polish you car and enjoy it before she bans it....
Therin lies the problem. Unfortunately stupidity is contagious, and when 'murica sneezes....

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Old 12-02-2019, 05:17 PM   #53
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Of all the welfare systems that govco has in place, supporting those who actuallly want to work to contribute is the one you have an issue with?
I have first hand knowledge of how this plays out in the real world and I will stick with my comment about the tax payers of Australia subsidising those who have decided to not live within their means
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:17 PM   #54
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Where's that trainwreck meme?
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:23 PM   #55
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What is ALWAYS missed by these 'eco warriors' is the elephant in the room - the number of humans on this planet growing at an exponential rate.
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:31 PM   #56
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What is ALWAYS missed by these 'eco warriors' is the elephant in the room - the number of humans on this planet growing at an exponential rate.
No not really. The Greens until recently advocated for zero population growth (at least in Australia) and I think that is a general trait amongst greenies. Their belief is that a finite resource ie the earth, cannot sustain continuing population growth.

Bob Brown was and still is a proponent for lowering Australian population growth and from memory he was also an advocate of some sort of economic model that didn't rely on continual increase in consumption. Don't know too much about that one as I don't really follow along with their policies.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:07 PM   #57
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No not really. The Greens until recently advocated for zero population growth (at least in Australia) and I think that is a general trait amongst greenies. Their belief is that a finite resource ie the earth, cannot sustain continuing population growth.

Bob Brown was and still is a proponent for lowering Australian population growth and from memory he was also an advocate of some sort of economic model that didn't rely on continual increase in consumption. Don't know too much about that one as I don't really follow along with their policies.

That is at odds with the party he formed who want to open the floodgates.
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:16 PM   #58
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Population control is fraught with danger. China is heading into trouble with their demographics. The government is practically begging them to have more kids but with the rising middle class putting kids off and the ingrained one child mentality it’s not working. They face the situation of not having enough young working age people to support their aging population.
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:40 PM   #59
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We should be supporting those who can't help themselves - really simple philosophy

Maybe as I am closer to that retirement age than you, but fortunately the family home is exempt from the assets investigation when you apply for the age pension HOWEVER, your furniture, your car, maybe a caravan, all other assets EXCEPT the physical house. You must also remember that most 'old' people bought or built their homes LONG before there was a housing boom, so why should they be punished because housing prices went through the roof - you thinking is flawed

I am a fan of getting rid of negative gearing for existing houses, however they should keep it in place for new homes. Do you actually understand how it works? You can 'negative gear' shares as well, did you know that?

Building is a huge boost for the economy the flow-on effect is huge, swapping existing houses between investors does nothing for the economy but a lot for the investors

what is the point of that argument, it is pointless

You should take more of a world view of things. We’re not an isolated island at the bottom of the world anymore. We compete with every other nation on the planet. The more people we have working to support our countries growth the better. Sweden, Denmark, Canada, France and Germany all have higher workforce participation than us for women with dependent children. And all of those countries subsidise their childcare industry.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:28 PM   #60
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That is at odds with the party he formed who want to open the floodgates.
Nope, it isn't. Check their policies.
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