The drug "Ice" - Page 19

fiery · 07-02-2016, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasOLane

However, I do take exception to people who jump on the 'it's the Parents fault' bandwagon, especially when they have no direct experience to back it up.

I guess they don't realise the parents have beat themselves up quite a lot and really don't need others to add to their heartbreak..

I value other people's opinions and thoughts on solutions but there is alone where the things they think hurt (cut) deeply too.

Stefan · 07-02-2016, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

That is so wrong and so naive that Im not exactly sure how to respond to it.

I grew up in a single parent household, my mum gave up everything for herself to raise us three kids, we stopped seeing our dad when I was 11. She taught us right from wrong, the way the world worked, respect, responsibility, how to cook, clean, earn money, was there for us through good and bad (as bad as bad is when you're a kid), she had holes in her shoes but didn't buy herself new ones, instead paying for me to go on a school camp.

At age 16 my sister met another girl who was an unsavoury type but they got along on some level I guess. Soon she started skipping school for a day here and there, then one day mum got a call from the police, she was caught stealing underwear and was in a cell. So we had to go get her. Mum tried everybpunishment in the book but nothing worked, she still skipped school and stole bits and pieces from shops.

One day she ran away from home with her boyfriend and didn't call us for two days. Mum was out of her mind with worry, she sat up in the lounge room for the whole time not sleeping, just waiting. When she came home to collect some clothes mum didn't try and stop her, she just said she's tried everything and given her everything and she had nothing left to give, no truer words have ever been spoken.

That night she came home and these days she's a normal 24 year old who just at one stage went stupid. We don't know if she was ever on drugs, and I don't really want to.

So bright spark, you tell me where mum failed as a parent.

All a parent can do is give their kids the best tools they can to navigate their way through life and be there for them when they screw up.

Bravo Bright Spark, that was my point exactly to Dajavu that I would not beat up my kid then tell him to get out of my life.

You're obviously not good at comprehension are you champ.

Adamz Ghia · 07-02-2016, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan

Well that's were the parenting part comes into it.

If your kid goes off the rails you failed at the parenting bit, no ifs or buts

I'm quoting you again, this time highlighted in bold just for you. These are your words. How have I misinterpreted them?

Stefan · 07-02-2016, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

I'm quoting you again, this time highlighted in bold just for you. These are your words. How have I misinterpreted them?

You still don't get it do you?

You came from a single parent home, I imagine your mum worked long hours just to feed you and cloth you. I imagine she did not have the time to look after you or be there to pull you or your sister in line.

If your dad was around and your mother at home to look after you and your sister, your sister may not have gone off the rails.

So you've proven my point exactly.

**GasoLane** · 07-02-2016, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan

You still don't get it do you?

You came from a single parent home, I imagine your mum worked long hours just to feed you and cloth you. I imagine she did not have the time to look after you or be there to pull you or your sister in line.

If your dad was around and your mother at home to look after you and your sister, your sister may not have gone off the rails.

So you've proven my point exactly.

I realise that this is your opinion. But don't try to start arguments on a subject that you know nothing about.

Unless you have FIRST HAND proof that a Parent has, as you put it, 'If your kid goes off the rails you failed at the parenting bit, no ifs or buts" please don't bother posting in this thread.

Adamz Ghia · 07-02-2016, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan

You still don't get it do you?

You came from a single parent home, I imagine your mum worked long hours just to feed you and cloth you. I imagine she did not have the time to look after you or be there to pull you or your sister in line.

If your dad was around and your mother at home to look after you and your sister, your sister may not have gone off the rails.

So you've proven my point exactly.

You're the one who has no clue. Everything you've said in that post is wrong. Mum was there with us 24/7. As for pulling us into line, the sound of the wooden spoon draw being opened still sends shivers down my spine so there were no issues there.

The point you have just proven right there that others tried to make is that you are totally unqualified to make any comment in this thread. You just said because someone works long hours to put food on the table that they failed as a parent? Seriously?

Shonky. · 08-02-2016, 12:23 AM

Some of you guys should be a bit more mindful of the impact on others of your strong words and opinions in here

Do you really want to be right if being right means ruining another mans sense of well being?

BENT_8 · 08-02-2016, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan

You still don't get it do you?

You came from a single parent home, I imagine your mum worked long hours just to feed you and cloth you. I imagine she did not have the time to look after you or be there to pull you or your sister in line.

If your dad was around and your mother at home to look after you and your sister, your sister may not have gone off the rails.

So you've proven my point exactly.

So how did Adamz Ghia turn out ok, he lived the same childhood. What you've done is highlight that two people brought up in the same trying conditions can have different outcomes.

Heres my story...

I met my now wife 24 years ago, she was 14. Her only sibling, an older brother, was 19.
Both had been raised by a mother and father who worked multiple jobs and provided for them well.
Both finished highschool.
My wifes had 4 kids and works full time, her brother got involved with the wrong crowd, had multiple on again off again relationships and became an ICE addict.

15 years ago my wifes parents owned a 4 bedroom home, had a thriving business and were loving life, then he started making threats, breaking into the house, stealing the takings, jewellery, you name it he did it.
They tried to cut him out, their new car suddenly burned to the ground.

Today they have nothing, lost the house after mortgaging it to keep the business alive because he kept stealing or bribing the money out of them. Lost the business, declared bankrupt.
All because their son, who was raised exactly the same as their daughter, decided to shove the lot up his arm or through a pipe.

He once told a mutual aquaintance that he doesnt care who gets the bigger inheritence, there will be nothing left anyway.

On top of all that, he got almost $200k payout from workcover for a job he held for 5 minutes and blew it in 3 months.

You cant just turn your back on him though, the last thing you want to do is make an enemy of an ICE addict, they'll just try to kill you, they dont care, dont make it personal.

The Monty · 08-02-2016, 02:06 AM

In my job (as many know Im a popo) I see a lot of it. Daily at least if not more.

Regardless of the parenting, if a child wants to do stupid crap, they will do stupid crap. Parenting only goes so far. To say that it is 100% the parents fault for their kids doing crime/drugs etc is just plain silly.

You cant blame a parent for their 40 year old child trying ice for the first time, thats just crazy.

What has surprised me about Ice is that it just doesnt discriminate. 12 years old or 70 years old. Male or female, poor or rich, business man or homeless.

For the most part, as some have mentioned from first hand experience, you would be hard pressed to tell when someone is on it. Most of the time they are 100% just lilke every other person. Until they have been up for 2 weeks and are about to crash hard. After time you learn to pick cues and tells and it can become quite easy to tell when someone is using.

The sheer amount of peoeple that are using it is just astonishing. I think generally across QLD, roadside drug tests are picking up 1 in 12 drivers as having either weed, MDMA or Ice in their saliva. Compared to about 1 in 230 drink drivers.

A recent operation on the Gold Coast over new years saw that number drop to 1 in 4. And these are not targetted tests. They are just done randomly like RBTs. Just imagine when you are driving in peak hour traffic or looking around your office, 1 in every 4. And from what I have seen, the majority are for Ice over the other two.

LoudPipes · 08-02-2016, 03:00 AM

I’ve lived almost all my adult life in the US and I’ve just been back holidaying and visiting family and friends.

Ice related crime is rampant there and when people talk of it there is a genuine fear of the extremes the users are prepared to go too.

This is an issue that needs urgent control measures as it is growing exponentially and will end up being the most devastating plague the world has seen.

The first world nations need to push for treatment of these addicts as law enforcement is losing this war big time.

The Monty · 08-02-2016, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

I’ve lived almost all my adult life in the US and I’ve just been back holidaying and visiting family and friends.

Ice related crime is rampant there and when people talk of it there is a genuine fear of the extremes the users are prepared to go too.

This is an issue that needs urgent control measures as it is growing exponentially and will end up being the most devastating plague the world has seen.

The first world nations need to push for treatment of these addicts as law enforcement is losing this war big time.

Bingo. Treat it as a mental health problem and physical health problem.

Its hard for us. Find a user with a point or two of ice and send him to court. What is the flip side of the coin. User still needs to use. So he does a petrol drive off or steals some food as he will always pay for drugs, and sacrifice other things.
So if we stop the user and seize the drugs and send them to court, they get a fine, need to buy twice as much off the dealer (remember we seized the first lot), dealer buys more from trafficker. Crime goes up, trafficker and dealer sell more. Use has even more debt then before, but now has committed more offences and has to pay more fines. User then has to do more crime again to pay for the new fines.

Its a vicious cycle that I dont know the answer to.

On the other side of the coin, we get old mate user with a couple of points of gear, we cant just do nothing. We have to do something. I always offer to refer them on to support services, and about 30-50% take you up on it which is good.

Hard predicament that there is no easy answer for.

Or if you look at it the other way, Netherlands have very loose drug laws. Drug arrests are virtually zero. And you can buy them in cafe's. But they are expensive and there are still addicts. This has created an issue where now property crime to support the users drug habits (that is legal) is out of control.

Or Portugal. Decriminalized drugs and treat it as a mental/physical health problem. But their murder rate is out of control.

Every action will have a reaction. There is no perfect answer.

LoudPipes · 08-02-2016, 03:58 AM

I don’t see decriminalising it as the answer but I also wouldn’t necessarily close my mind to it as so far no solutions are working.

Treating it as a medical condition will free up the courts and the money spent on enforcement and incarceration of users could be channelled into the health aspects of it.

Of course that doesn’t mean everyone will want treatment but at least the focus would be positive towards the addict and not aggressive.

Law enforcement should still chase the pointy end manufacturers and suppliers and make sure the sentences are hash.

It’s a tough one but it not getting easier so looking outside of the traditional methods is becoming more and more urgent.

SpoolMan · 08-02-2016, 10:11 AM

They need to dump a whole of money into this and with the consent of 2 family members and a health care professorial they should be able certify addicted users into rehab programs.
We need a structured network of programs to deal with this issue.

Stefan · 08-02-2016, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

So how did Adamz Ghia turn out ok, he lived the same childhood. What you've done is highlight that two people brought up in the same trying conditions can have different outcomes.

Firstly I don't know Adam so I have no idea how he turned out.

Secondly when did I say that every person with a tough upbringing will be a junkie?

Thirdly you highlighted exactly what I'm saying your wife's parents worked multiple jobs gave them things....so working multiple jobs is good parenting now? Really? No wonder peoples kids a ********ed up when that is your definition of a good parent. How much time is spent raising the kids while working multiple jobs? Who raised the kids?

When my first son was born in 2007 my wife left here $80K full time executive job, she still doesn't work because she is raising our kids. It is novel concept these days. Obviously most choose to work multiple jobs buy a 5 bedroom home with media room and jetski in the garage dump kids at daycare and wonder why their kids are screwed up 15 years later. "Gee we got nice house and a jetski, what went wrong?

Confirms what I'm thinking really.

SpoolMan · 08-02-2016, 10:17 AM

Cant we have a mature discussion and read the thread without people attacking or passing judgment on each other, this is the job of our politicians..

Stefan · 08-02-2016, 10:39 AM

It's mot about passing judgement, I have a strong belief in how kids need to be brought up.

I think one of the biggest issues is that families tend to no longer have a stay at home parent and it has greatly added to the demise in kids behaviour. Addiction is a by product, parents then blame the wrong crowd when it goes wrong.

Every day I hear complaints about the kids of today. Well we've brought them up that way! What's changed? Most households have two working parents for a start.

No it's not always easy, one size does not fit all and life throws us curveballs. We do the best we can.

But the quicker society realises that "providing" for kids is not raising kids things will get better. The war on drugs needs to start at home.

Will it fix everything no, there will always be junkies.

If someone takes my opinion as passing judgement they have their head wedged in the sand.

BENT_8 · 08-02-2016, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan

Firstly I don't know Adam so I have no idea how he turned out.

Secondly when did I say that every person with a tough upbringing will be a junkie?

Thirdly you highlighted exactly what I'm saying your wife's parents worked multiple jobs gave them things....so working multiple jobs is good parenting now? Really? No wonder peoples kids a ********ed up when that is your definition of a good parent. How much time is spent raising the kids while working multiple jobs? Who raised the kids?

When my first son was born in 2007 my wife left here $80K full time executive job, she still doesn't work because she is raising our kids. It is novel concept these days. Obviously most choose to work multiple jobs buy a 5 bedroom home with media room and jetski in the garage dump kids at daycare and wonder why their kids are screwed up 15 years later. "Gee we got nice house and a jetski, what went wrong?

Confirms what I'm thinking really.

You are fixated on the negative result to support your theory, my wife turned out fine under the same conditions.

We have 4 kids, the first 3 my wife stayed home with them until the 3rd reached school age. When our 4th was born my wife was happy with her career and opportunity to mix with adults so we decided that i would stay home and be the carer, none of our kids have grown up in day care centres etc.
I had an appointment with centrelink after a few months, due to my wifes income i dont actually get any money from them but they wanted to help me improve my skillset and get back to work.
I told the young girl i wasnt planning on going back to work full time until my daughter turned 5.
She started banging on about how kids need daycare to help them grow yada yada. Told me she was a daycare baby and turned out fine.
I started reeling off my kids achievements which was quite a list considering their ages and then told her NONE of them went to daycare.
I then asked her who looks after her kids while she's at work, she said she didnt have any...

I get where your coming from, i like the idea of having a stay at home parent to teach the rights from wrongs, but i dont think being a bad egg is the result of poor parenting.
If you drive down the road whilst texting and kill some poor bastard is your driving instructor a failure.

Choices!

Road Games · 08-02-2016, 03:58 PM

That is a good point ... well said !

Stefan · 08-02-2016, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

You are fixated on the negative result to support your theory, my wife turned out fine under the same conditions.

We have 4 kids, the first 3 my wife stayed home with them until the 3rd reached school age. When our 4th was born my wife was happy with her career and opportunity to mix with adults so we decided that i would stay home and be the carer, none of our kids have grown up in day care centres etc.
I had an appointment with centrelink after a few months, due to my wifes income i dont actually get any money from them but they wanted to help me improve my skillset and get back to work.
I told the young girl i wasnt planning on going back to work full time until my daughter turned 5.
She started banging on about how kids need daycare to help them grow yada yada. Told me she was a daycare baby and turned out fine.
I started reeling off my kids achievements which was quite a list considering their ages and then told her NONE of them went to daycare.
I then asked her who looks after her kids while she's at work, she said she didnt have any...

I get where your coming from, i like the idea of having a stay at home parent to teach the rights from wrongs, but i dont think being a bad egg is the result of poor parenting.
If you drive down the road whilst texting and kill some poor bastard is your driving instructor a failure.

Choices!

No argument from me mate, I already said my view is not going to save the world from junkies and there are no guarantees. I agree plenty, probably the majority, will be OK with working parents.

Sounds like we are mostly agree, likely my delivery got peoples back up.

Yes I do think they need daycare to socialise and interact away from the home. but there is daycare from 10-2 for two days a week, and there is the daycare dropping a 2 year old kid off at the crack of dawn and picking them up again 7pm, 5 days a week.

**nuthin' fancy** · 08-02-2016, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan

Well that's were the parenting part comes into it.

If your kid goes off the rails you failed at the parenting bit, no ifs or buts, if you then boot the kid to the side. you fail again at the parenting bit.

I wish life was as simple as that.

StealthAu · 08-02-2016, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

Or if you look at it the other way, Netherlands have very loose drug laws. Drug arrests are virtually zero. And you can buy them in cafe's. But they are expensive and there are still addicts. This has created an issue where now property crime to support the users drug habits (that is legal) is out of control.

Or Portugal. Decriminalized drugs and treat it as a mental/physical health problem. But their murder rate is out of control.

Every action will have a reaction. There is no perfect answer.

I'd be interested in knowing your source for statistics.

From what I have read, Portugal's homicide rate per capita is virtually on par with Australia. Given Portugal has a significantly higher rate of poverty, this surprised me. When compared to countries sharing similar poverty rates, the homicide rates of Portugal seems much lower, which to me would suggest they must be doing something right.

The Netherlands rate of petty crime is definitely higher than you'd expect given their low rate of poverty. It has decreased significantly over the last decade, yet still quite high when compared to other countries.

The Monty · 08-02-2016, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StealthAu

I'd be interested in knowing your source for statistics.

From what I have read, Portugal's homicide rate per capita is virtually on par with Australia. Given Portugal has a significantly higher rate of poverty, this surprised me. When compared to countries sharing similar poverty rates, the homicide rates of Portugal seems much lower, which to me would suggest they must be doing something right.

The Netherlands rate of petty crime is definitely higher than you'd expect given their low rate of poverty. It has decreased significantly over the last decade, yet still quite high when compared to other countries.

You are right, no idea where I read that. Quick check cant find it but verifys what your saying. My oops.

Road Games · 08-02-2016, 08:30 PM

Verification or not you have more idea of what is going on at home here and how hard it is to deal with than trolls on an internet forum Josh

Just sayin'

Peace out

StealthAu · 08-02-2016, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

You are right, no idea where I read that. Quick check cant find it but verifys what your saying. My oops.

All good mate, I read an article last year linking high rates of homicide in Portugal to the decriminalisation of drugs. It provided no references or statistic though. All the stats I could find went against the claims in the article, but the numbers were a couple of years old. I'd be interested to know if it has increased in the last couple of years or if the article had no basis for it's claims.

blakef6 · 08-02-2016, 09:11 PM

The bad thing about this drug, is that its too good. You can't even dabble with it or try it, because once you do you rarely turn back until it controls your life. I don't know how you can convince people not to try it though. I don't think over the top scare tactics are really working either :/

**buggerlugs** · 08-02-2016, 09:14 PM

View from an Ice addict's mum
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/s...=1454922622117

STINKY NINJA · 08-02-2016, 09:52 PM

An ex mate of mine blew between 50-100 grand on this crap last year...
He earns 200g plus
He always went on about owning a nice new ss commodore,i said "dude you just smoked up your brand new car last year,well done"
Its an expensive way to lose weight and your teeth...
Yeah im a fat ******,id rather be fat than lose weight by smoking rock...

Express · 09-02-2016, 11:48 PM

I’m posting this in both the Ice and Alcohol threads for those who may have missed it.

For parents, family and friends who have loved ones that are suffering from addictions, Catalyst on the ABC tonight had a program on Oxytocin.

This is a chemical that is produced in the body that looks as though it may have great potential in treating social disorders such alcoholism and drug addictions.

And for those who believe addicts are responsible for their own addictions this study does not agree with you.

Catalyst presented a 20 minute story on how and why Oxytocin is produced in the body of very young children and the effects this has on addictions in later life.

For anyone interested you should be able to catch a repeat of it on the ABC’s iView.

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/4402591.htm

Road Games · 09-02-2016, 11:50 PM

Wow i know Oxycotin rocks

Didn't know about this !

Road Games · 09-02-2016, 11:54 PM

Must explain .. i have had a lot of operations due to injuries and medical procedures.. i am not a social user of prescription drugs like those footballers last year.

But i did lose 14kg in 3 weeks back in 2014 on it ...