LEXUS GX 460 Unsafe

[csv8]

http://media.brisbanetimes.com.au/na...exc_from=strap

[Mr Hardware]

did you view the video? the story was baseless.
it's just toyota bashing.
the whole article's premise is that if you purposely induce a powerslide and hit a gutter you might roll it

REALLY

[burnz]

what sort of rubbish is that??
the car is upright in a slide, show me other model do the same??

this is not directed at the "op" just the media spin idiots

[pauljh74]

The claim the stability control was too slow - they are treating stability control as this magic thing to stop you getting into trouble, its role is to help when the limit has been exceeded. Deliberately throwing a car around like that will overwhelm ESC and hitting a kerb while sideways and sliding would tip many passenger cars too - let alone a tall, full size SUV. ESC won't overcome the laws of physics. It just brings you back when you overstep them a little.

[csv8]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

did you view the video? the story was baseless.
it's just toyota bashing.
the whole article's premise is that if you purposely induce a powerslide and hit a gutter you might roll it

REALLY

Yes I did..but aren't we supposed to make fun of other vehicles ?????
We just cann't keep praising FORD vehicles..we must also show whats wrong with other vehicles. Makes FF interesting if unbiased....

[UNR8D]

WTF is a model that isnt even sold in australia have an article in the brisbane times.... media need a punch to the face sometimes. REALLY.

[dannyhilton]

No worce than the Ford Territory I nearly rolled, and that's car based. All those electronics can't make up for human stupidity, and in my case that's what it was, pure, dumb, stupidity. Christ push my Fiesta to the limit and DSC, while fantastic, doesn't work. I dislike Toyota vehicles, but this article is pure brand bashing. The same media that prints this tells us the Falcon is a flawed dinosaw...

[Ohio XB]

There's more to it than what you see in the video.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...460-is-unsafe/

The handling problem arises if the driver takes his foot off the gas pedal while driving quickly through a sharp turn. That causes the rear end of the vehicle to slide toward the outside of the turn, a condition known as “trailing-throttle” or “lift-throttle oversteer.” On dozens of other S.U.V.’s tested by the magazine, the vehicles’ electronic stability control system detected and quickly stopped the slide. But the stability control didn’t stop the GX 460 until it was almost sideways, Mr. Champion said.



This is not gunning the engine around a turn, this is removing your foot from the gas pedal around a quick turn. Consumer Reports states that other SUV's tested did not respond this way.



The particular test that concerned the magazine involves a turn that suddenly gets sharper. The driver enters at about 60 miles per hour and then, as if surprised, lifts off the gas. Ideally, the electronic stability control would stop a slide caused by that maneuver, allowing the vehicle to safely complete the turn.

Four of the magazine’s drivers tested the Lexus without being allowed to watch one another or to compare notes, Mr. Champion said. They met later and discovered each had a similar problem with the tail sliding too far. “It was like ‘whoa, what about that rear end!’ ” he said.

He added that technicians from Toyota later inspected the vehicle and found it met factory specifications. The magazine anonymously buys its test vehicles rather than borrowing them from automakers.


Steve

[csv8]

JAPANESE automaker Toyota suspended sales of the Lexus GX 460 sport utility vehicle worldwide today, one day after halting deliveries in North America due to a roll-over risk.

"The company has decided to suspend the SUV's sales worldwide, which means also in Russia and Middle East after North America," said Toyota spokeswoman Mieko Iwasaki, in reference to the other markets where the vehicle is sold.

Toyota suspended the sales of the GX in the United States and Canada after US magazine Consumer Reports gave the SUV a rare "Don't Buy: Safety Risk" rating, the latest blow to the reputation of the embattled Japanese auto giant.

When pushed to its limits, the rear of the GX "slid out until the vehicle was almost sideways before the electronic stability control system was able to regain control," the magazine said.



Having now suspended the SUV's sales worldwide, Toyota said it will work on analysing potential safety risks in the model which has sold 6,000 units.

"The company is examining the possible problem and will decide what remedies should be taken," Iwasaki said.

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

There's more to it than what you see in the video.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...460-is-unsafe/

Steve

As usual Steve, a valid contribution to the forums.

Very interesting...

Four of the magazine’s drivers tested the Lexus without being allowed to watch one another or to compare notes, Mr. Champion said. They met later and discovered each had a similar problem with the tail sliding too far. “It was like ‘whoa, what about that rear end!’ ” he said.

This helps to eliminate collusion and influencing of results.

He added that technicians from Toyota later inspected the vehicle and found it met factory specifications. The magazine anonymously buys its test vehicles rather than borrowing them from automakers.

This would help to eliminate the possibility of the manufacturer providing a 'special edition' for the tests.

------------------

It seems to me that the testers themselves (not the Brisbane Times who have regurgitated the results) have gone to great lengths to provide clear, unbiased testing which has uncovered a potentially life affecting issue.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

did you view the video? the story was baseless.
it's just toyota bashing.
the whole article's premise is that if you purposely induce a powerslide and hit a gutter you might roll it

REALLY

Although i am far from a toyota fan i would agree this has 'blown up' a bit in the press (US and local) beyond the usual scale. This is almost certainly due to (very real) incidents ivolving toyotas previously. All that is happening is the scarmongering the media often reserve for their pet topics (or for that matter other car brands they dont' like) is being shifted to the usually exempt Toyota. While in this case it is probably a bit over the top, its toyos own fault for pushing 'we are the safest/most reliable etc.' line and being exposed with their pants down....

In a technical sense though i feel the report that has been linked by the OP is a bit simplified and hencse misleading. The full story (see goauto or the info supplied by ohioxb) provides some more info. This sort of incident has been seen to happen on a range of other vehicles from a range of manufacturers. Yes it is true that no ESP system will ever make a car 'uncrashable' but they do vary in effectiveness, if only in comparison to competitors in the same segement. For a large SUV you'd think toyo would be running a pretty agressive system when it comes to sideways action at speed....they do have a very high centre of gravity.

With many nations (incl. australia) going to a a 'mandatory esp' setup in the near future it is timely people recognise that not all esp systems are the same. I woudl expect the standards written into law will require a very basic set of test regimes to be met to prove you have a proper esp 'system', but these are unlikely to be suffiient to prove they atcually provide much of a safety benefit. Looking at the video and description it appears this prado variant does not intervene to arrest the slide in any meaningful way at all. Something many purchasers probably expect it would.

This is hardly the first time toyota has been busted with this issue niether. The infamous Wheels COTY kluger 'roll over' happened for pretty much exactly the same reason. These sort of engineering short cuts is exactly why they are in the midst of the greatest automotive recall in history......

[dannyhilton]

Well this is our Toyota Prado, and I don't see them suspending the sale of that? I've looked at the video, read the reports, and it seems that the VSC (Vehicle Stability Control) as Toyota call it is slow in an extreme situation. I still think this is an attack on Toyota although I too remember the Toyota Klugar issue. Anyone pushing their SUV like this thinking the DSC/VSC/ESP will then save the day and prevent you from crashing is living a very sheltered life. These systems can only work to a certain limit, so I ask when does common sense get a say here? Making these systems act as soon as any minor thing occurs can be more dangerous, and leaves us enthusiasts with bloody boring cars.

Having an industry standard for such systems however, well I can definitely see the merit of this. The difference in how the system reacts in my 2009 Fiesta and 2009 Falcon Ute is quite large, so I'd imagine hopping from one brand to the next would reveal even more of a change in the basics of when the system operates and under what extremes.

[InfernoSR]

What stupidity... the driver SHOULD slow before the bend instead of slowing through it...

Dannyhilton, this Lexus in not our Prado, they are 2 different cars.

[My poor XF]

Originally Posted by dannyhilton

Well this is our Toyota Prado, and I don't see them suspending the sale of that?

.

According to the SBS news report last night Toyota Australia said that this issue doesn't affect the Australian prado's. (Prado is a derivative of the Lexus or vice versa)

I find it hard to believe that the stability calibrations here would be so completley different to the Lexus calibrations in the US so as to have no reason to be concerned. I'm sure there would be regional variances but to say it's a non issue here is fraught with danger.

[zetec]

Originally Posted by My poor XF

According to the SBS news report last night Toyota Australia said that this issue doesn't affect the Australian prado's. (Prado is a derivative of the Lexus or vice versa)

I find it hard to believe that the stability calibrations here would be so completley different to the Lexus calibrations in the US so as to have no reason to be concerned. I'm sure there would be regional variances but to say it's a non issue here is fraught with danger.

Different engines/suspension/tyres do cause different calibrations. The entire FG range has almost model-specific calibrations and limits on what wheels can be fitted so they don't corrupt the calibration.

Suspension that's slightly softer (likely in America) or no/smaller anti-roll bars could cause this simply from a lift-off event mid-corner. I'm hypothesising here, but it's all entirely possible.

It makes a huge difference.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by InfernoSR

What stupidity... the driver SHOULD slow before the bend instead of slowing through it...

Assuming a kangaroo doesnt jump out in front half way around a bend. DSC hopefully is designed to catch you when something unexpected happens, not a punter on the limit then jumping on the brakes as his regular driving style.

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by InfernoSR

What stupidity... the driver SHOULD slow before the bend instead of slowing through it...

Dannyhilton, this Lexus in not our Prado, they are 2 different cars.

You could say the Lexus doesn't handle as well as other cars in its class, but unsafe is going too far. Unsafe for people driving at the limit and then changing the weight balance of the car suddenly - yes. Which is driving without a brain. With ESC now - they can blame bad dynamics on a crap ESC setup and call it unsafe.

In that case there's a lot of unsafe Porsche 911s out there. They have previously had a rep for chewing up and spitting out drivers with lift off oversteer. The reality is they are a revered sports car.

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by InfernoSR

What stupidity... the driver SHOULD slow before the bend instead of slowing through it...

True, but in an emergency situation, where many things things are often out of driver control, 'should' is not always possible.

There could be any number of situations that require a driver to suddenly change direction of their vehicle, in a range of adverse conditions.

If this technology is going to become standard (and it is), then it needs to be setup to a certain standard. I'm not aware of what that standard is and usually the average customer isn't also, but sometimes the best way to do this is to compare/benchmark with a particular market segment of vehicles, as has been done here. In this case, it appears as though the Lexus didnt stack up to its competitors. Not necessarily the standard...

I agree with the assertions being made here that this necessarily wouldn't have become as public if it werent for the hot water Toyota is currently in. Still, its their own fault for the hot water they are in.

[My poor XF]

Originally Posted by zetec

Different engines/suspension/tyres do cause different calibrations. The entire FG range has almost model-specific calibrations and limits on what wheels can be fitted so they don't corrupt the calibration.

Suspension that's slightly softer (likely in America) or no/smaller anti-roll bars could cause this simply from a lift-off event mid-corner. I'm hypothesising here, but it's all entirely possible.

It makes a huge difference.

I see, point taken, and as I said I'm sure there would be variances, I just think it's dangerous on Toyota's part to dismiss any concern for their Australian vehicles.

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by dannyhilton

Making these systems act as soon as any minor thing occurs can be more dangerous, and leaves us enthusiasts with bloody boring cars.

True, but in the tests being performed, the Lexus appears as an 'outlier' in the results compared to its competition. As a consumer, i want to know this.

Keep in mind this is for extreme situations, which can be difficult to reproduce. We can't simply line up some dogs around a bend and get a little lady to try and dodge them while doing 90km/h in wet conditions. So the next best thing is to get a test driver to do something stupid in a controlled environment and see what the TSC/DSC/ESP/blah does.

[InfernoSR]

Originally Posted by tweeked

Assuming a kangaroo doesnt jump out in front half way around a bend. DSC hopefully is designed to catch you when something unexpected happens, not a punter on the limit then jumping on the brakes as his regular driving style.

Just gotta hope that a roo doesnt jump out in front of you when you doing a higher speed with gutters close by... the only place i know of this possibly happening is Mt Panorama

I'm actually chasing this through my own networks through the Toyota Dealership that i work for... and so far, there hasnt been anything stating any of this media garbage, but the Prado is unaffected so far.

[mowog]

Toyota SUV's are know to a bit wanting in their stability calibrations. Wheels rolled a previous generation Klugger. Road Test I have seen on the LC 200 hint at calibration issues with stability control being to late and then overly aggressive.

The issue isn't really new.

[dannyhilton]

Originally Posted by InfernoSR

Dannyhilton, this Lexus in not our Prado, they are 2 different cars.

They look pretty much the same to me? I know Lexus sell the ES350 which is based on the Camry, but it has different body panels and interior, the inside of this looks the same as the Prado, as does the outside apart from a new nose. Surely it's not far removed from the Prado, and Kakadu spec models seem to get the same high tech features the GX has after a quick look on their websites?

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by dannyhilton

They look pretty much the same to me? I know Lexus sell the ES350 which is based on the Camry, but it has different body panels and interior, the inside of this looks the same as the Prado, as does the outside apart from a new nose. Surely it's not far removed from the Prado, and Kakadu spec models seem to get the same high tech features the GX has after a quick look on their websites?

They are the same cars. Much like lexus here sells a LX based off the Landcruiser the GX in the states is a body kitted Prado. Some other changes too (interior trim, features etc.) but basically teh same vehicle.

Toyota Aus gets away with it because the V8 version (the lexus version) of the prado is not sold here. We have only 4. V6 and diesel. Toyota has now suspended sales of all V8 GXs worldwide (not that many countries have them) so we shall see.

Franklyl Toyota has not been one of the best in ESP tuning/active safety chassis setup anyway so its hardly a shock. All the comments on 'this is poor driving in the first place' while correct are far from useful. Because:
A: most drivers are crap. You know, i know it, its fact. Somone will do exactly what these test drivers did and its wont' make much diff. either way when that 2+tonne suv goes sidweays into your family's car at an intersection now is it.....
B: If you are going to plug the advantages of ESP in your advertising (which toyo does) and if the gov is going to mandate it then it would be good if it atcually did something. Of coruse its all a matter of degrees (literally in thsi case!) but fact is that for a big heavy poor handling suv its a no brainer to have an ESP system that cuts in pretty early for lift off oversteer situations. Even the BMW X5 (a vastly better handling SUV than the prado....) would catch that slide with half as much angle UNLESS you put it in sport mode or sometihing (which exisits in the hi po sport variants) for use on a track.

Although it was a bit of a witchunt i think people are missing the only solid point to be made here. That is, if this test (and it seems quite well set up) is accurate than toyota has screwed the pooch on this and should fix it. They (and other manufacturers) have done this stuff for a few years now. Releasing cars with 'new' features that are either total gimicks or dont' work properly. Time someone called them on it. The prado is a very average handling car given it is used heavilly in urban sealed road environements. If they can't at least put a decent safety net on the damn thing then they shouldn't be selling it to soccer mums..... :

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

They are the same cars. Much like lexus here sells a LX based off the Landcruiser the GX in the states is a body kitted Prado. Some other changes too (interior trim, features etc.) but basically teh same vehicle.

Toyota Aus gets away with it because the V8 version (the lexus version) of the prado is not sold here. We have only 4. V6 and diesel. Toyota has now suspended sales of all V8 GXs worldwide (not that many countries have them) so we shall see.

Frankly Toyota has not been one of the best in ESP tuning/active safety chassis setup anyway so its hardly a shock. All the comments on 'this is poor driving in the first place' while correct are far from useful. Because:
A: most drivers are crap. You know, i know it, its fact. Somone will do exactly what these test drivers did and its wont' make much diff. either way when that 2+tonne suv goes sidweays into your family's car at an intersection now is it.....
B: If you are going to plug the advantages of ESP in your advertising (which toyo does) and if the gov is going to mandate it then it would be good if it atcually did something. Of coruse its all a matter of degrees (literally in thsi case!) but fact is that for a big heavy poor handling suv its a no brainer to have an ESP system that cuts in pretty early for lift off oversteer situations. Even the BMW X5 (a vastly better handling SUV than the prado....) would catch that slide with half as much angle UNLESS you put it in sport mode or sometihing (which exisits in the hi po sport variants) for use on a track.

Although it was a bit of a witchunt i think people are missing the only solid point to be made here. That is, if this test (and it seems quite well set up) is accurate than toyota has screwed the pooch on this and should fix it. They (and other manufacturers) have done this stuff for a few years now. Releasing cars with 'new' features that are either total gimicks or dont' work properly. Time someone called them on it. The prado is a very average handling car given it is used heavilly in urban sealed road environements. If they can't at least put a decent safety net on the damn thing then they shouldn't be selling it to soccer mums..... :

Very much agree.

Familiarity breeds complacency, because every second 4wd is a Toyota we kind of just take them for granted, but the Prado and like are shockingly bad handlers and the more times the general public gets this drummed into them the better.

Over Easter driving from Adelaide to Coffs Harbour I saw those new Prados everywhere on the highways. Hate to turn this into another speed limit issue, but I honestly think this country's low speed limits is encouraging the purchase of vehicles which do not handle or respond well in sudden emergencies.

If I was living in a country with open limits, me and many other families would probably buy large 6 cylinder or V8 sedans and wagons which handle well and drive fantastically. Instead if the fastest I can go is only 100 or 110 I wouldnt mind settling for a 4wd. The problem is I am now in a vehicle inherently inferior to a low-riding low centre-of-gravity family car in an a sudden swerve situation.

[burnz]

pushing a vehicle beyond it's natural limit and expect the gadgets to save it is asking for trouble.

oh well off to take a shower, better set the cruise control. :

[Davebro]

Its fugly anyways.

I wouldnt buy one.

Any 4wd like that will roll in a slide if you hit a peanut.

Its called gravity.

[chevypower]

Look, the fact is Toyota fans are so blinded. They are people like your mother who knows absolutely nothing about cars, but insist Toyotas are the most reliable and safest cars ever. Even if you are a mechanic or engineer, you could not convince them otherwise. So even if every car Toyota made was guaranteed to explode the next day, and the news showed them all exploding, they would still buy them and ignore the bad press.
This is the main reason why I hate Toyotas. The other reason is they have no character. Being in to 4x4s i have always had to listen to how the LC100 and 200 are so good off-road. They are crap off-road! But Toyota fans seem to think they come stock with ARB accessories and any tyre you want. And that diff-locks, snorkles and lift-kits should be included when they're talking about how good they are. The last Land Cruiser that was decent off-road was the 80 series. Otherwise they are just on par with any other stock family SUV. Then they always go on about reliability, and how every Toyota part is available in the forest from any trail you are on, and they all cost no more than $5. They are just such a blinded bunch of morons. Don't get me wrong, they are not crap cars, they are just very average.

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by burnz

pushing a vehicle beyond it's natural limit and expect the gadgets to save it is asking for trouble.

oh well off to take a shower, better set the cruise control. :

This is just the point. These gadgets are for these specific incidences.

Panic Stop - Anti-lock brakes.

Hydroplane/wheel spin - Traction Control

Evasive Maneuver/ excessive Speed for Maneuver - Electronic Stability Control


These features are designed and sold to assist or save the driver in these sudden, unexpected situations. If the owner is going to PAY for these features, and the manufacturer is going to SELL/MARKET the vehicle by touting the safety these features provide, then they damn well better work as advertised.

Me, personally.....I drive a 1993 F-150 with Anti-Lock rear brakes only. Not too much fancy. I am not into all these modern gadgets, but if I am in a vehicle that has them, and I find myself in one of these emergency situations, I hope they work as designed.


Steve

[burnz]

as i said "natural limit", you can't do a 100mph and stop in 100 feet because you have ABS.

the irony is that ppl drove ok before the gadgets now getting into trouble because they rely on them from their own stupidity.