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Old 15-02-2019, 06:51 PM   #91
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by mcflux View Post
Everyone pays?



what an absurd statement. Show me exactly where in AOC's submission it states cars will be taken from some individuals and given to others, whilst the former solely pays for the latter to utilise it?

Absurd.
You're not familiar with the concept of socialism? Ok then.



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Originally Posted by mcflux View Post
What predictions? How so with Al Gore? What have supposed predictions got to do with AOC's submission?
Occasional Cortex is on the record stating the world will end in 12 years. We're heard the same type of BS rhetoric from Al Gore and his hoax climate change infomercial, An Inconvenient Truth.
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Old 15-02-2019, 07:13 PM   #92
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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You're not familiar with the concept of socialism? Ok then.
Thanks for the education, Teach. Youíve convinced me with your rock-solid response. So, again, where in AOCís submission does it state cars (F6ís?) will be taken off person A, to be given to person B, for person B to use freely at the sole cost of person A?

Quote:
Occasional Cortex is on the record stating the world will end in 12 years. We're heard the same type of BS rhetoric from Al Gore and his hoax climate change infomercial, An Inconvenient Truth.
Ya got me there.
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Old 15-02-2019, 09:03 PM   #93
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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If you want to play the cherry-picking game then I'll point you in the direction of Scandinavia...
Scandanavia in particular Norway where they have natural resources and State owned businesses that harness those resources, but importantly don't try to run the businesses.

But they are not self-declared socialist states.

Let's not cherry pick and look at the 28 countries who have declared themselves socialist/communist

23/28 of self declared socialist/communist countries have given it up officially:
Afghanistan
Albania
Angola
Belarus
Benin
Bulgaria
Cambodia
Congo-Brazzaville
Czechoslovakia
Ethiopia
East Germany
Hungary
Mongolia
Mozambique
Poland
Romania
Somalia
Russia - Soviet Union
Ukraine
North Vietnam
South Yemen
Yugoslavia

Those remaining:
China - its moved a long way towards a market economy while keeping a 1 state ruling party
Venezuela - imploding
Cuba - economy very poor
North Korea - economy very poor
Laos - moving to open economy since 2009

The empirical evidence is overwhelmingly against you.

The best way to help the environment is to make people richer and it also helps with population control for those that worry about that.


Lets say you introduce all these dream policies in Australia and the USA.

It will have almost zero impact as investment will flow out of those 2 countries and into places like China and India and the other 200 countries where environmental concerns are not given as much priority.

Meanwhile we are poorer for the policies which impacts our ability to research and solve the problem.

You actually want rich people using their own money to invest in ideas that may or may not work.

The government interfering with legislation/rules just stops educated money getting to where it needs to be to create win/win outcomes.

Last edited by zipping; 15-02-2019 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 15-02-2019, 09:33 PM   #94
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Socialism has a record of failure so blatant that you would have to be a moron to read the list of the above countries and think yeh......I aspire to be like them.

Of course people with the best of intentions think aha......they didn't do it the right way......of course if I was the supreme ruler I would implement socialism way better than all those other failed states.
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Old 15-02-2019, 09:37 PM   #95
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

This thread needs to go the way of those failed socialist states IMO
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Old 15-02-2019, 09:43 PM   #96
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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This thread needs to go the way of those failed socialist states IMO
And middle aged men with pony tails, or hair that has been coloured !
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Old 15-02-2019, 10:11 PM   #97
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

This guy is actually running for 2020:
https://theresurgent.com/2019/02/12/...rage-veganism/

Cortez won by more votes than I posted in my first post - that's even scarier!

I think the Left are testing the waters with these first round of hopefuls, then Beto and Biden will announce their presidential run.

I rekon Michelle Obama could possibly throw her hat in the ring too.
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Old 15-02-2019, 10:25 PM   #98
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by mcflux View Post
Thanks for the education, Teach. Youíve convinced me with your rock-solid response. So, again, where in AOCís submission does it state cars (F6ís?) will be taken off person A, to be given to person B, for person B to use freely at the sole cost of person A?



Ya got me there.
What part of OAC's socialist policies are you not understanding? Have you read her Green New Deal proposal? The left love it, the middle and right know it will destroy the economy, create massive unemployment and the idea itself will cost trillions of dollars.

I guess the ultimate aim is to make the general public dependant on the government. That's the agenda of the left, socialists and Labor/Greens in Australia.
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Old 15-02-2019, 10:27 PM   #99
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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This guy is actually running for 2020:
https://theresurgent.com/2019/02/12/...rage-veganism/

Cortez won by more votes than I posted in my first post - that's even scarier!

I think the Left are testing the waters with these first round of hopefuls, then Beto and Biden will announce their presidential run.

I rekon Michelle Obama could possibly throw her hat in the ring too.
I guess Booker could make meat so expensive the public will break into the zoos and eat the animals, just like what's done in socialist Venezuela.
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Old 15-02-2019, 10:44 PM   #100
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

This is why I don't want US politics catching on here. The extremes of both sides drown out out the middle on many topics.

Where there is common ground, do something about it and then negotiate the rest.

I have to laugh that in the US universal health care is considered socialist by many people and therefore bad.

What the **** is wrong with wanting people to be healthy. It costs 2% of taxable income here. While not perfect it is far better than anything they have! Surely the richest country on earth can manage that?
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Old 15-02-2019, 10:53 PM   #101
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

To keep OT

New York Governor Cuomo blasts AOC and left-wing Democrats for 'putting political interests above community' and driving away Amazon - despite polls showing most people supported tech giant's new HQ
New York Governor Andrew Cuomo is slamming politicians like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Senator Michael N. Gianaris for derailing Amazon's plans
On Thursday Amazon announced it is cancelling its plans to build a headquarters in Queens, New York, citing lack of cooperation between local politicians
Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio have long lobbied for the tech giant to come to NY
The governor said 'A small group of politicians put their own narrow political interests above their community' in a statement on Thursday
He said the politicians behind the pulled plans should be held accountable
Politicians like AOC were critical of Amazon's deal as the city offered $3billion in tax breaks and incentives to the tech giant
Polls showed that 70 percent New Yorkers were supportive of the Amazon HQ

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...U68pRUyeWy7_Yo
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Old 15-02-2019, 11:02 PM   #102
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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What the **** is wrong with wanting people to be healthy. It costs 2% of taxable income here. While not perfect it is far better than anything they have! Surely the richest country on earth can manage that?
Just so you know in Australia we spend 10% of our GDP on healthcare......2% is way way unders it is basically 14% of the budget is spent on health

Here is 2016

https://www.taxsuperandyou.gov.au/node/131/take
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Old 15-02-2019, 11:10 PM   #103
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Quote:
Originally Posted by zipping View Post
To keep OT

New York Governor Cuomo blasts AOC and left-wing Democrats for 'putting political interests above community' and driving away Amazon - despite polls showing most people supported tech giant's new HQ
New York Governor Andrew Cuomo is slamming politicians like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Senator Michael N. Gianaris for derailing Amazon's plans
On Thursday Amazon announced it is cancelling its plans to build a headquarters in Queens, New York, citing lack of cooperation between local politicians
Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio have long lobbied for the tech giant to come to NY
The governor said 'A small group of politicians put their own narrow political interests above their community' in a statement on Thursday
He said the politicians behind the pulled plans should be held accountable
Politicians like AOC were critical of Amazon's deal as the city offered $3billion in tax breaks and incentives to the tech giant
Polls showed that 70 percent New Yorkers were supportive of the Amazon HQ

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...U68pRUyeWy7_Yo
Time to buy bags and bags of popcorn to watch the left totally destroy themselves
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Old 15-02-2019, 11:11 PM   #104
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Just so you know in Australia we spend 10% of our GDP on healthcare......2% is way way unders it is basically 14% of the budget is spent on health
2% is the Medicare levy, as in what an individual tax payer pays per year. Not a bad deal really. Have a heart attack in the US and see what it costs you.
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Old 15-02-2019, 11:23 PM   #105
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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This is why I don't want US politics catching on here. The extremes of both sides drown out out the middle on many topics.

Where there is common ground, do something about it and then negotiate the rest.

I have to laugh that in the US universal health care is considered socialist by many people and therefore bad.

What the **** is wrong with wanting people to be healthy. It costs 2% of taxable income here. While not perfect it is far better than anything they have! Surely the richest country on earth can manage that?
While we were waiting in line at Disneyworld recently we got talking to an American couple, and they asked if we would ever live there. I replied that the only thing that would stop me is their healthcare system because itís an absolute hot mess compared to ours. We got onto Obama care and Medicare and when I mentioned our system they recoiled in horror that we have to pay tax to contribute to a universal healthcare system. Their attitude is Ďwell if I donít go to the doctors why should I pay for other people to go?í. We agreed to disagree on the subject in the end but their mindset still boggles my mind.
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Old 15-02-2019, 11:44 PM   #106
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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While we were waiting in line at Disneyworld recently we got talking to an American couple, and they asked if we would ever live there. I replied that the only thing that would stop me is their healthcare system because itís an absolute hot mess compared to ours. We got onto Obama care and Medicare and when I mentioned our system they recoiled in horror that we have to pay tax to contribute to a universal healthcare system. Their attitude is Ďwell if I donít go to the doctors why should I pay for other people to go?í. We agreed to disagree on the subject in the end but their mindset still boggles my mind.
LOL. So we're supposed to take the word of someone that complains about the country that he paid good money to visit only to establish an emotional opinion from some randoms in a line waiting for a Mickey Mouse ride?
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Old 16-02-2019, 12:11 AM   #107
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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LOL. So we're supposed to take the word of someone that complains about the country that he paid good money to visit only to establish an emotional opinion from some randoms in a line waiting for a Mickey Mouse ride?
What are you talking about? Honestly did you read what I wrote or are you just on a tangent? Where was I complaining about their country? What emotional opinion have I formed?

I actually donít understand why you posted that.
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Old 16-02-2019, 07:41 AM   #108
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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I actually donít understand why you posted that.
Well, that's the image I got. You must have been standing in line for a while to get on that topic - then again, it is Disneyworld.

The rest of the world seem to talk more about their healthcare system than American's themselves - maybe that's saying something.

Back to Cortez:
https://finance.nine.com.au/2019/02/...dquarters-jobs
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Old 16-02-2019, 10:06 AM   #109
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Well, that's the image I got. You must have been standing in line for a while to get on that topic - then again, it is Disneyworld.

The rest of the world seem to talk more about their healthcare system than American's themselves - maybe that's saying something.

Back to Cortez:
https://finance.nine.com.au/2019/02/...dquarters-jobs
Yeah, must be why itís a core issue at every presidential election they have...
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Old 16-02-2019, 11:45 AM   #110
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Just so you know in Australia we spend 10% of our GDP on healthcare......2% is way way unders it is basically 14% of the budget is spent on health

Here is 2016

https://www.taxsuperandyou.gov.au/node/131/take
Just so you know Australia spends less than 10% of GDP on healthcare, about the same as other OECD Countries. Every Australian citizen is covered by our system.

The USA spends over 17% of GDP on healthcare, one the most expensive systems in the world. 44million US citizens have no health insurance and 38million have inadequate health insurance.

How is it that the USA can pay so much for healthcare and get such a bad outcome? Allowing the 'market' to determine the cost of healthcare Americans are over charged and over serviced. Without government regulation in healthcare, that every other modern democracy has, Americans are getting ripped off by big business maximising profits.

Is universal Medicare and a Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, sensible Government policy or the slippery Socialist slope to world domination?
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Old 16-02-2019, 12:00 PM   #111
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Gee some liberal interpretations of socialism here. Communism is an extreme subset of the socialist theory, where the state owns and decides everything. Socialism was a reaction to the rise of capitalism in the Victorian era, a theory to adjust the failings of capitalism against the communities and economies of the day.
Modern socialism has headed towards a democratic socialist model and your very own Australia is a great example of this. Don't get it wrong Australia is a socialist society. Greatly subsidised universal healthcare, free education, income support, welfare, a balanced taxation system, taxation on primary industries to recoup the proletariats share, substantive government intervention in the market to adjust the failings of capitalism. The balance sometimes slurs one way or the other but the Australian people keep this in check through the election cycles. Swings and roundabouts.
I consider most of Europe to in effect behave as democratic socialist states.
Communism doesn't work for the many, capitalism doesn't work for the most, socialism despite its dirty and missunderstood name is how most civil societies act.
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Old 16-02-2019, 07:05 PM   #112
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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What part of OAC's socialist policies are you not understanding? Have you read her Green New Deal proposal? The left love it, the middle and right know it will destroy the economy, create massive unemployment and the idea itself will cost trillions of dollars.
I have read the proposal as of last week. For your benefit, here is the direct link to it: https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...ution/109/text

Have you read it? What is it specifically, about the fourteen goals, do you vehemently oppose?

None of this "left/right" or "destroy the economy" broad generalisations, what specifically about each goal do you oppose, and why?

Quote:
I guess the ultimate aim is to make the general public dependant on the government.
Really? How?
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Old 16-02-2019, 07:35 PM   #113
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Scandanavia in particular Norway where they have natural resources and State owned businesses that harness those resources, but importantly don't try to run the businesses.

But they are not self-declared socialist states.

Let's not cherry pick and look at the 28 countries who have declared themselves socialist/communist

23/28 of self declared socialist/communist countries have given it up officially:
Afghanistan
Albania
Angola
Belarus
Benin
Bulgaria
Cambodia
Congo-Brazzaville
Czechoslovakia
Ethiopia
East Germany
Hungary
Mongolia
Mozambique
Poland
Romania
Somalia
Russia - Soviet Union
Ukraine
North Vietnam
South Yemen
Yugoslavia
Looks like someone's been to the wikipedia list. Since you're against cherry-picking allow me to include the qualifier for what is a socialist state:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Self-identification is the only criterion used by the list, therefore the list includes all countries that have claimed to be Socialist, even if their claims are disputed. All countries that have not claimed to be Socialist are excluded, even in cases where certain outside observers regarded those countries as Socialist. This list includes countries that assert in their constitutions that they are based on socialism, regardless of their economic or political system. As a result, this list is best understood as a list of countries that explicitly claim to be Socialist and it does not reflect the actual economic systems themselves.
Quote:
Those remaining:
China - its moved a long way towards a market economy while keeping a 1 state ruling party
Venezuela - imploding
Cuba - economy very poor
North Korea - economy very poor
Laos - moving to open economy since 2009
With the exception of Venezuela...

China's full title is the "People's Republic of China". China's Communist, yeah?
Cuba's full title is the "Republic of Cuba". ditto
North Korea - "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"... Umm...
Laos - "Lao People's Democratic Republic" - Also Communist.

Quote:
The best way to help the environment is to make people richer and it also helps with population control for those that worry about that.
Something we can agree on! But alas we can't seem to agree that AOC's submission SEEKS to achieve just that (particularly those bolded) (*edit* I acknowledge that it doesn't address the population issue which I entirely agree with you on):

* Achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions through a fair and just transition for all communities and workers
* Create millions of good, high-wage jobs and ensure prosperity and economic security for all people of the United States

* Invest in the infrastructure and industry of the United States to sustainably meet the challenges of the 21st century
* Secure for all people of the United States for generations to comeó (i) clean air and water; (ii) climate and community resiliency; (iii) healthy food; (iv) access to nature; and (v) a sustainable environment
* Promote justice and equity by stopping current, preventing future, and repairing historic oppression of indigenous peoples, communities of color, migrant communities, deindustrialized communities, depopulated rural communities, the poor, low-income workers, women, the elderly, the unhoused, people with disabilities, and youth

Quote:
Lets say you introduce all these dream policies in Australia and the USA.

It will have almost zero impact as investment will flow out of those 2 countries and into places like China and India and the other 200 countries where environmental concerns are not given as much priority.

Meanwhile we are poorer for the policies which impacts our ability to research and solve the problem.

You actually want rich people using their own money to invest in ideas that may or may not work.

The government interfering with legislation/rules just stops educated money getting to where it needs to be to create win/win outcomes.
When rich people, and by extension corporations keep their money, they tend to (I'll ironically use a Socialist term here) "redistribute the wealth" amongst themselves and the shareholders.

And, back to AOC's submission, I refer to you a direct copy-paste from there, in respect to what I have italicised above:

* Enacting and enforcing trade rules, procurement standards, and border adjustments with strong labor and environmental protectionsó (i) to stop the transfer of jobs and pollution overseas; and (ii) to grow domestic manufacturing in the United States
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Old 16-02-2019, 07:56 PM   #114
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Quote:
Originally Posted by zipping View Post
To keep OT

New York Governor Cuomo blasts AOC and left-wing Democrats for 'putting political interests above community' and driving away Amazon - despite polls showing most people supported tech giant's new HQ
New York Governor Andrew Cuomo is slamming politicians like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Senator Michael N. Gianaris for derailing Amazon's plans
On Thursday Amazon announced it is cancelling its plans to build a headquarters in Queens, New York, citing lack of cooperation between local politicians
Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio have long lobbied for the tech giant to come to NY
The governor said 'A small group of politicians put their own narrow political interests above their community' in a statement on Thursday
He said the politicians behind the pulled plans should be held accountable
Politicians like AOC were critical of Amazon's deal as the city offered $3billion in tax breaks and incentives to the tech giant
Polls showed that 70 percent New Yorkers were supportive of the Amazon HQ

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...U68pRUyeWy7_Yo
This is a trillion dollar company that paid zero tax on its $11.2b earnings for 2018 and got REFUNDED $137m despite profiting $5.6b in 2017. How is that fair?!?

That "70 percent" poll is also "56 percent" in other news articles, and amongst that "56 percent" they're split down the middle amongst those supporting the $3b incentive and those against it.

So 25,000 jobs for $3 billion of taxpayer money, given to a trillion dollar company that's been REFUNDED $137m for its $16.8b earnings!

Surely there's a better way...
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Old 16-02-2019, 10:14 PM   #115
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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How is it that the USA can pay so much for healthcare and get such a bad outcome? Allowing the 'market' to determine the cost of healthcare Americans are over charged and over serviced. Without government regulation in healthcare, that every other modern democracy has, Americans are getting ripped off by big business maximising profits.
From what I understand the insurance companies tried low balling all the hospitals by not paying the costs and only a fraction (as it was going to save them heaps of money). So then the hospitals jacked thier prices up otherwise the hospitals were going to go under. That's why a $16 IV saline drip now costs $8000 if you were to pay without insurance.

The us is one of the worst examples to use and it is a huge issue over there to the point the affordable care Act is no longer a 'socialist' policy to the Republicans.
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Old 17-02-2019, 11:49 AM   #116
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia View Post
Melbournes median house price in 1973 was $19,800, or adjusted for inflation, $186,945. Today itís $833,321.

Meanwhile, the average wage was $102.60 per week, or $968.71 per week adjusted for inflation. Today itís $1550 in Victoria.

Incomes have not by any measure kept up with house prices. There is no credible argument otherwise. So straight off the bat the cost pressures on families today are higher than back then.

And if anyone takes what Channel 7 puts on as news seriously then i have a bridge to sell them...
Oops

Such a big leap.

Be wary of using stats to support your argument because invariably you open yourself to criticism regarding other facts you failed to consider to support your conclusion.

But at least you are one up on name calling to win an argument.

Rather than counter you with such things as defining the actual boundary of Melbourne and how far into the outer suburbs it extends to arrive at a median house price, and without mentioning that most households in 1973 only had one salary, and nor will I mention an interest rate four times higher than today; but I'll answer with an analogy.

In 1973 an XB Falcon 500 6 cylinder auto was $4181

In 2016 an FGX was $36,400 If production continued it would probably be let's say $40,000, but we'll stick with the lower figure for the sake of argument.

So using your salary figures, a 1973 purchase took 40.8 weeks whereas a 2019 purchase took 23.2 weeks.

However if you look at household income rather than individual income, it changes markedly.

In 1973, the purchase remains the same at 40.8 weeks whereas the 2019 figure is now 11.7 weeks

Now if I use this argument to showcase how us oldies had it harder than youse younger blokes, you would not be impressed enough to change your view and you would site other factors such as manufacturing methods, economies of scale, blah, blah, blah.

We cannot compare generations using today's benchmarks.

If you don't agree with this lemme tell you some things: my parents never owned a car in their lives, I can vividly remember when we got our first fridge which meant we could make ice cream from carnation milk, I was clothed in hand me downs from my brothers, and we didn't get TV until I was 16.

I guess I am just one of those old white privileged males who buggered everything causing so much suffering to current and future generations who have to sort out the mess from our greedy generation.

BTW Big Trev, you get a thumbs up from me.
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Old 17-02-2019, 12:53 PM   #117
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Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

I think time's up here.

From one inane meme to those who think AOC is not fashion model material but don't put their own Wife's or girlfriends pics up for comparision.

And those who deflected the discussion to Australian politics and then to the old 'they had it easier than us'.

Whilst managing to squeeze in Socialism, Taxation and Health.

I'm surprised that Hitler and the Nazi's never got a mention! (Godwins Law)

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