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Old 24-05-2011, 05:13 PM   #61
Polyal
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

And that the receiver has half a brain. Im not going to entertain your fire excuse because again its just another hypothetical.

Since you are such an expert perhaps you should send an email to Ford telling them what a scam they are running...no better yet get the ACCC onto them to protect the weak minded that its just a money spinner.

Better yet let people spend money on what they want.

And for all this talk I have not seen a link saying what Ford claims, just a post with "claims".

Undercarriage aero trays work, the precise amount is variable depending o the car and what speeds you are talking about. Running around the CBD will prove nothing at all.
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:30 PM   #62
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

"Undercarriage aero trays work, the precise amount is variable depending o the car and what speeds you are talking about. Running around the CBD will prove nothing at all."

My point proven.

Thank you.
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:30 PM   #63
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Fiesta_Man69, if you are truly a man i'm not sure why your posts have degraded from stubborn and argumentative to just pointlessly argumentative.

You have yet to provide any facts, have dodged the issue, and even claimed 'no-one besides Ford' will have them, implying that I'm using this to direct the discussion in such a way that you would be unable to reply with any credibility. They might be the only ones to have such info, in that case then testing by forum members would be the nest logical direction. If you do not wish to partake in such activities, then that's your entitlement, and your contribution is complete.

But what's frustrating is your inability to talk in any technical, quantitative manner in answer to my posts. This is strange seeing as so far you have been discussing the issue with "my opinions of undetrtrays on my motor racing experience", for all your 'motor racing experience' surely you'd have some qualitative answer....at all.....ever? Well I would hope so seeing as you were able to determine that a CF bonnet would offer greater gains than the undertray, yet again without validation. I will again be forced to imply you came to this conclusion through assumption, sorry, motor racing experience? Either way your claims are as well supported as the now infamous PowerBand...

Do you see at all why I am yet to support any 'truth' you have spoken?
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:31 PM   #64
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69
"Undercarriage aero trays work, the precise amount is variable depending o the car and what speeds you are talking about. Running around the CBD will prove nothing at all."

My point proven.

Thank you.
Because no one drives out of the city, or would buy a Eco because they do high mileage.
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:31 PM   #65
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Therefore, according to Polyal, buying an aero tray and running around the CDB is useless.
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:33 PM   #66
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69
Therefore, according to Polyal, buying an aero tray and running around the CDB is useless.
Now your just making yourself seem petty and without sufficient intellect to validate any argument you put forward with reason. This line of retort is akin to a 14 year old...
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:35 PM   #67
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69
Therefore, according to Polyal, buying an aero tray and running around the CDB is useless.
Show me where I said useless?

I inferred that the effectiveness would be lesser than say at highway speeds.

Its just logic.

BTW race cars dont run trays just so they can reduce thier fuel consumption.

Your missing the point. Are there "better" mods for attempting to improve FC. Yes. Is the tray a complete waste of time, no.
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:36 PM   #68
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Um, crf - a cf is light. Reducing weight = increased performance/decreased fuel usage. But sorry, I don't exact figures on me...
Because I - nor anyone else on here - can talk technical (unless they are part of Ford's design team) any arguement put forward to you is dismissed.
Yes undertrays work - I know that, I've had them on several cars - R32, Evo9 - but they made no difference to fuel usage - highway or otherwise. But again, I don't all the figures on me.
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:39 PM   #69
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Um, yes, obviously sportcars run trays for aero and down force, so they are effectively sucked to the track: fuel saving is a by product at best (if it happens at all) Never said they were used for fuel saving on performance cars.

Then buy the tray for yourself. You seemed sold - ask if they have a bigger rear spoiler too while you're at it, since that's an 'aero' aid. lol
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:41 PM   #70
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69
Um, yes, obviously sportcars run trays for aero and down force, so they are effectively sucked to the track: fuel saving is a by product at best (if it happens at all) Never said they were used for fuel saving on performance cars.

Then buy the tray for yourself. You seemed sold - ask if they have a bigger rear spoiler too while you're at it, since that's an 'aero' aid. lol
I would but I dont own a Fiesta, good thing my AU comes with one standard.
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:41 PM   #71
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

"Now your just making yourself seem petty and without sufficient intellect to validate any argument you put forward with reason. This line of retort is akin to a 14 year old..." By restating - not quoting (never did quote it did I?) a previous comment? Really? It appears you argument has fallen apart.
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:42 PM   #72
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

AU..... right......
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:43 PM   #73
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Very easy to theorize when you don't actually even own any of the vehicles in question.
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:46 PM   #74
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

HAHAHAHA..ok thats it, I cant take it any more.

What do you think theories are?......crf529 we are wasting bandwidth here mate.
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:52 PM   #75
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

ok, when you spend thousands on cf aero for an evo (which i had to sell for a house deposit mind you) so you can drop your wakefield times a few secs then we'll talk.

Pity you can't buy the tray to prove me erroneous hey? Much easier to be a keyboard warrior
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Old 24-05-2011, 05:59 PM   #76
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

I cant believe I have wasted my time with you.

The OP was a bit over the top with the claims, not that those claims where actually officially stated anywhere.

It was simply a thread about the potential to retrofit the aero tray from the Eco to other Fiesta's....thats it. $130 isnt going to break the bank, its not your money or your car so why do you care.

The Eco's FC figures are an combination of many additions, the tray being one of them, do you really believe that Ford would spend the money tooling and manufacturing the tray if it had zero effect on the fuel consumption? They would spend it else where or just cut the cost from the program.

Its really simple but somehow you turned it into some conspiracy. Well done.
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Old 24-05-2011, 06:02 PM   #77
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Yes, it is quite amusing, when two people who are so self assured yet no nothing about aerodynamics and claim that ripping one part off the econetic will no doubt work is hilarious. I agree. Aerodynamics works as a package. Removing just a part of that package and then trying to on sell it to the public with dubious claims (I wonder if Ford Aus knows?) is a shallow practice at best. It's like taking just the wing or just the nose off an F1 car and claiming that one piece will do the entire aero work for the car.

Anyhow, people are free to make up their own mind. I know what sensible rational people who drive in the real world will do.
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Old 24-05-2011, 06:04 PM   #78
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

The claim of the potential was erroneous and had the real potential of lightening people's wallets: that's all.
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Old 24-05-2011, 06:09 PM   #79
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

So, as I've said, if the tray works as well as that why is Ford sitting on such marketing gold? On something that would boost sales and reduce the need to slash drive away prices? Do you think Ford is sitting there, with the ability to drop FC for such a little outlay (or even an optional extra) and going, nah, can't be bothered? Of course not! That's what makes this all so amusing. If the multi billion Ford corp didn't see fit to fit the tray as standard by itself on all models - then its not worth it. I think the brains running Ford are slightly more intelligent than those on here.... But I could be wrong.
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Old 24-05-2011, 06:58 PM   #80
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyal
Lets say you do 500 kms per week. Thats $1.12 per week. $58.24 per year.
Thanks for that calculation, because I do just over 500km a week, lol.

Do they make them for WS?
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Old 24-05-2011, 07:01 PM   #81
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69
So, as I've said, if the tray works as well as that why is Ford sitting on such marketing gold? On something that would boost sales and reduce the need to slash drive away prices? Do you think Ford is sitting there, with the ability to drop FC for such a little outlay (or even an optional extra) and going, nah, can't be bothered? Of course not! That's what makes this all so amusing. If the multi billion Ford corp didn't see fit to fit the tray as standard by itself on all models - then its not worth it. I think the brains running Ford are slightly more intelligent than those on here.... But I could be wrong.
As much as i see this under tray pointless and a waste of money ie if your sooking about 0.2L/100km when it uses 6L/100~ anyway go buy a bike.

Please your not doing yourself any favours
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Old 24-05-2011, 07:59 PM   #82
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

DJM83 - thanks for agreeing that the under tray is pointless (on its own) and would be a waste of money. That is all I have been trying to get across - people were talking about improving FC, I suggested some proper ways in which this could be done before two others (one not even owning a Fiesta) just wanted to sing praise for the under tray.

I believe this forum should be used to help people avoid blowing cash on useless crap: others obviously feel otherwise.

I apologize if I'm not doing myself any favors (whatever that means): I'd prefer to see members not get ripped off by a scam than be people's bestie...

The only point I made about the 0.2 reduction was that it was a huge amount in the fierce light car market and that in no way would Ford be sitting (for years now) on such a weapon if it really did work (in isolation without any other mods - 6.1 down to 5.9 - bugger all in the real world but worth thousands in the competitive market place.

You will notice on multiple occasions I have said people are more than free to make their own choices; but because I couldn't produce scientific data (as no one but a member of the Ford R&D team could) I was derided.

Mentioning that it could easily void or increase your insurance was met with sarcasm. I suggest some people ring the major insurers - while a few will, many will not insure the car with ANY modifications at all (exhaust, wheels, some won't touch stereos). Just bolting the tray on and saying she'll be right and then trying to reason with the insurance company by saying 'oh but its on another model in the range' won't have them paying out AFTER you prang the car or it catches on fire.... Forgive me again if I warned to be cautious.

Yes the science is there (always said that) but, I'd be blown away if the under tray reduced consumption by any more than 0.02 not 0.2. If that's worth $130 then I say go for it!

If my tone offended it is because I have a very low tolerance level for those spouting bs and wanting to fleece others of their hard earned.
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:10 AM   #83
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Man, WOW!!!!!

Oh Man!!!! If only I could swear in here, from the shock, surprise, the wow!

I simply put a little thought, an idea, on the forum, go to work, come home late, walk in and calmly turn on the desktop, and BAM! Another 2 and a bit pages of posts!!!!! phew!!!!!!!!! Just WOW!!!!!!

Thank heavens I didn't want to do anything radical...


Ok so, I wonder what Geelong Festy thinks of all this???

Lets get to it: As far as I know, Ford has never advertised the Econetic's undertray as a fuel saving device for other variants like CL, LX and Zetec. It is as you've all said, part of the Econetic's package.

I am just one of those slightly nutty people who would like to do something to my car that could possibly, possibly, reduce FC. Full Stop, End of Story.

So, I've turned it into a little project, and have started to make inquiries, and have learned a little about the machinations of a motor car company that merely confirms some of the heresay.
I called into the spare parts office on the way to work (coz Ford head office didn't know and didn't want to really really help... like, of course)(duh) and the guy there said exactly what CRF and Polyal and to some extent (hold ya breath) Fiesta Man69 has been saying.

In a few points he said:

1. They don't know
2. It is possibly/probably a marketing thing that only the Econetic has it fitted, and...
3. "if they can save 10c they will" hence savings on the other models
4. if it works on the Econetic then it should work on the other models, coz the air has to go through the radiator so if one fits a tray then you are probably not doing any harm. ie, shouldn't over heat or over cool the motor.
and wait for it... could possibly protect the oil filter as its the lowest thing in the front and has been damaged on some unfortunate person's cars and blown their motors! So I learned something extra...

Can I afford to blow 120-130 bucks? yes I can
Do I want to yet? am waiting for some more info
from an insider in the UK
will I do it? not sure yet, but am bl@#dy tempted!!
Can I afford a carbon fibre bonnet, full suspension and turbo etc etc
Nah, not really interested.
Call me qerky, or whatever but I Just wanted to know, because its possible.
And lastly, thanks guys for your input and support.
will keep you posted
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:22 AM   #84
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Just to clear up

"blown up some poor person's cars"

he said 3 people have had this happen to them!
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Old 25-05-2011, 01:02 AM   #85
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

maybe people should start tailgateing b-double's, save real money...
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Old 25-05-2011, 01:08 AM   #86
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Now, now, boys.
Let's all take a step back and take a deep breath.
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Old 25-05-2011, 07:25 AM   #87
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

But wait!!!!!!!!
There's more...

http://www.caradvice.com.au/119455/h...nt-investment/
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:11 PM   #88
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Update:

Due to the fact that I like to work in the real world and talk to real people and establish facts, I stopped off at my local Ford dealer on the way to work this morning and had a good chat to the bloke in parts.

Very Interesting indeed.

While they did have two undertrays in stock he was unaware of any Ford directive to sell them to customers of any Fiesta other than the econetic. I asked him if the tray would fit, he assumed it would but again would issue no guarantee. When I asked him if he had been told of any fuel saving benefit he said he didn't think this one part would do much and I was probably wasting my money - it was refreshing honesty from the bloke. He then went and asked several other employees if they knew anything about instructions to sell them and fuel benefits - no direction nor claims from Ford. He was very hestitant to sell me the undertray with me hoping for any fuel savings. He said the spares were for econetics, and the price was $280..... a bit more than $130.

However, I am aware that all Ford dealerships are privately owned and run, buying cars off Ford an on-selling them at a slight margin. I assume other dealerships may sell the tray cheaper.
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:16 PM   #89
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Paulo7 - in regards to the link - you will notice that the undertray pictured is extensive and covers most of the car: so its hard to compare to a little one that just slips under the front.

Also, be very aware of fuel saving claims made by manufacturers in general:

for example -
Holden's 3L V6 claimed use of 9.9 - even when deliberately chasing fuel economy figures most publications couldn't get below 11s; driving hard went into the 13s.
Even the Econetic - claimed 3.7 - no publication saw below 4, most mid 4s.
These are just two.
So therefore, % saving claims need to be treated with some scepticism.
Just a heads up.
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Old 25-05-2011, 12:29 PM   #90
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Default Re: MORE HORSEPOWER, BETTER MILAGE, HIGHER TOP SPEED!! (well...sort of)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69
blah yada.
give it up!!

aero dont work because we drive in a vaccume..
planes dont fly, parracuute fail, there's no head wind.. blah blah..
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