Another Brisbane Tunnel Goes Bankrupt

[grandpa_spec_F6]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The amount of money the government gets from fuel excise, the extra few cents per liter for road maintenance, and 10% on top of those two for GST.

The roads should be paves from gold with people in designer suits with fedoras hand polishing it every 20 meters.

Sig'ed

[paulb351]

Originally Posted by Peuty

I've said it before and I'll say it again - there is no risk driving though these tunnels! You know the bloody cameras are there, keep it at 80!

Except they reduce the speed and you don't notice then you are 20 kmh over and in a lot of pain. Signs every 60 metres means constantly checking signs and camera locations moving you can easily get caught out...

[2011G6E]

A fair government should realise that it isn't there to "turn a profit"or operate like a private company...it's there to provide services for the taxpayer, who gives them money to provide those services. At its simplest, the government is not a private corporation, it's a public service provider.
The obsession our governments have with surpluses makes it worse...debt is good, on a national level. If they constantly run with a huge surplus sitting there each year, it merely means they've collected too much tax the year before. A country isn't a household, and comparisons that political leaders make between the two are simply wrong. If you want to make a real comparison between a household and a country, then look at it this way: it's no good sitting back smugly with tens of thousands in the bank while the house falls down around your ears and the driveway crumbles outside..."but at least I'm keeping a good surplus!"...no, that only means you aren't spending enough on upkeep of the house.

"User pays" through things like road tolls is something that should not apply at all to certain things a government should be providing and paying for...and roads are one of the biggest areas. We already pay enough through other road-related expenses, without being expected to pay to drive on the road as well through tolls.

The RACQ, amongst others, over the years have done stories on how much is raised through fuel excise (no, let's call it what it is: "fuel taxes") and how miniscule a percentage of that amount is returned to road spending. One figure I recall said that if they doubled the spending on roads from something like the current 3 to 5% of the fuel taxes to 10%, it would still mean 90% of the fuel taxes are sucked into consolidated revenue, never to be seen again, but road funding would double immediately.


Those who foolishly think the government isn't there to run businesses, especially in a small country like ours (we have less people than a lot of major cities overseas) should consider the Post Office...look at how well that works. No matter where you are in the country, no matter how remote, it costs the same to send a letter ten kilometers as it does a thousand kilometers. It's that way by legislation, and don't think governments of various persuasions over the decades have looked sharply in the Postal Services direction and considered how to privatise it, but find it's a "hands off" thing.

Imagine if railways, roads, water supply, electricity, and other services to our piddling 22 million people were as protected as the cost of a stamp...seen as something that the government simply had to supply at a fair price to all no matter where you lived? Costs seen not as "an investment to be grown", but as a cost that just had to be born as a normal part of running a country, and not something that had to be constantly looked at as a way to make a profit and sack people to slim down departments and try and make them more like private companies than government services.

Now that would be a fair way to run things...

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by cobramania

Can't say about other states, but in NSW if the owner goes bust, the Government usually bails them out & gets a higher percentage ownership, or full ownership in the road, (pretty sure most toll roads in NSW are co-owned, Private-Government to start with any way).
The private companies also are under contract for a certain amount of years to operate them, (eg. 50 years), then the Government takes full ownership & control.
The private operator charges tolls to get back building costs, pay for maintenance & make a profit (if they can).
When the Government get's full ownership at the contract end, tolls are removed as per F3 Freeway & M4 Motorway in Sydney.
The NSW Government (RMS) fully owns & operates the Sydney Harbour Bridge & Sydney Harbour Tunnel. Ongoing tolls there, are for continual maintenance & general revenue, all other motorways (toll roads), become Freeways.

Cross City Tunnel gets handed back Dec. 2035
Eastern Distributor gets handed back July 2048
Hills M2 gets handed back May 2042
Lane Cove Tunnel gets handed back January 2037
M5 South-West gets handed back August 2023
M5 East is owned by the NSW Government, but operated by a private company on behalf of the Government, (There are no tolls here).
Westlink M7 gets handed back February 2037

Funding & building them privately allows them to be built now, instead of waiting 10-15+ years for the Government to have funding for them.

Sydney Harbour Tunnel actually reverts to Govt ownership in 2023

The private companies that build these toll roads don't have the cash lying around, they borrow it.
Govt's should do the same and build and operate these themselves rather than signing a contract with a private company that, as suggested by another poster, often includes provisions such as shutting or restricting alternative routes thereby encouraging/forcing more motorists onto the toll road.
Private companies factor in enormous profits for the construction and operation so tolls are higher than they would be under govt ownership.
I would rather pay a reasonable toll to the govt than a higher toll to a private company that has been given land as part of the deal

And re speed cameras in tunnels, I fully support them.
A few years ago a motorcyclist was observed regularly travelling at 160km/h plus through the Sydney Harbour Tunnel in the early morning. He obscured his number plate each time and so police set up a simple operation which a mate was a part of. They got him.....
Here's the link to the story
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...594365960.html

[vanman_75]

Driving back from Sydney yesterday , using the GPS fastest route and I would have paid 30 odd dollars just to get to brissy , double hit because towing big boat ...no way I would use them if time wasn't an issue or the skinny Sydney spaghetti streets were better for big things...in saying that I was dam glad they were there to alleviate a lot of congestion ..the business case on the other hand is not a wise investment .

[flappist]

Originally Posted by aus880

And re speed cameras in tunnels, I fully support them.
A few years ago a motorcyclist was observed regularly travelling at 160km/h plus through the Sydney Harbour Tunnel in the early morning. He obscured his number plate each time and so police set up a simple operation which a mate was a part of. They got him.....
Here's the link to the story
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...594365960.html

Thank you for demonstrating that speed cameras are totally ineffective against persons who are deliberately endangering the public through travelling at extremely high speed in the tunnels and actual Police enforcement is needed and supporting the general consensus that their primary purpose is generating revenue.....

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by flappist

Thank you for demonstrating that speed cameras are totally ineffective against persons who are deliberately endangering the public through travelling at extremely high speed in the tunnels and actual Police enforcement is needed and supporting the general consensus that their primary purpose is generating revenue.....

the cameras detected the speeds and highlighted the issue as stated clearly in the article

police then brought the issue to a head via the courts and the offender was dealt

if there were no cameras he might still be doing it now

[cs123]

I can understand the rational behind putting speed cameras in tunnels, seems fair. However it's the exact same rational used when speed vans were put on the highways in QLD. It was deemed too dangerous to pull people over for speeding.

As with all things the government do, they are prone to scope creep and now we see vans, fixed and cars all enforcing speeding on highways.

As for the business case for the tunnels, I always felt it was a bit sketchy based on human nature. Why pay a toll to get there 10 minutes earlier. If you are commuting and putting your hand in your pocket to travel the tunnels you will use the surface roads unless you have a high disposable income or work is paying it.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by aus880

the cameras detected the speeds and highlighted the issue as stated clearly in the article

police then brought the issue to a head via the courts and the offender was dealt

if there were no cameras he might still be doing it now

And he did all those times with no harm to himself or any other...

[pmacc]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I must say I find the whole concept of a privately developed and operated piece of road infrastructure to be foreign and puzzling. What happens in a case like this when the owner goes belly up, does the government get it by default, does the tunnel close etc?

At least in Wait Awhile the government builds, operates and maintains everything, even if we have to wait a generation for it!

Same in SA except you lot are alot richer that us so we have to wait another 2 generations before we get anything built/ re built properly

[flappist]

Originally Posted by aus880

the cameras detected the speeds and highlighted the issue as stated clearly in the article

police then brought the issue to a head via the courts and the offender was dealt

if there were no cameras he might still be doing it now

So he did not appear on any of the other cameras that monitor ACTUAL safety issues such as breakdowns, accidents, fires etc. and was not seen by any other tunnel user including any of the Police that use the tunnel either while working, travelling to and from work or any other times?

Two questions:

1) During the period that this horrendous crime was being committed what was the dollar income from the speed cameras and how did these fines make the tunnels safer at the time?

2) As these cameras earn hundreds of millions of dollars every year there must be hundreds of thousands if not millions of drivers exceeding speed limits all over the country. Why is the road toll only a couple of hundred, or less than 0.0001%, of drivers fined for speeding?

[csv8]

Maybe the Police Service should change its name to Revenue Raising Service ??

[xxx000]

I don't know your source for road toll deaths Flappist

Why is the road toll only a couple of hundred

but it's very wrong

In 2011 the road toll was 1,291...that's a nice way of saying dead people

plus then there's all the injuries suffered by the survivors.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by aus880

I don't know your source for road toll deaths Flappist



but it's very wrong

In 2011 the road toll was 1,291...that's a nice way of saying dead people

plus then there's all the injuries suffered by the survivors.

I was using Queensland figure but as you have used the Australian one then it is only less than 0.001% of drivers fined for speeding and of course you are assuming that all road deaths and injurues were from speeding and no other cause which conveniently fits into the fiscal model.

In the same year the total number of deaths in Australia was 146,932 so the road toll is less than one percent.

But this is skirting around the real issue which is:

If speed cameras save lives why is the road toll about the same per driver in all states regardless of how many speed cameras are deployed and if speed is the problem then why, when millions of speeding fines are issued each year does the road not get safer?

Now as this is a QLD thread I have another observation. Cooroy to Curra is one the the worst black spots in the state with hundreds of fatalities over the years.
The majority of these fatalities have been head ons where a vehicle has drifted over to the wrong side of the road or has hit another vehicle emerging from the plethora of small often difficult to see intersections.

It used to be 100 km/h.

It was dropped to 90km/h but the accidents just kept happening.
Some areas were dropped to 80km/h and guess what, the accidents kept happening.
The road was separated into single lanes with a very wide centre line and overtaking prohibited outright other than the 4 lane short overtaking zones and surprise, surprise, the accidents kept happening.

Rather than wait for the inevetable "prove it wil a link" troll to pop up just google "accident gympie".

The road is gradually being upgraded to a 4 lane separated freeway similar to Cooroy to Caboolture but without the insanely stupid "emergency U turn" spots deliberatly put there by previous public servants to prevent the 130 speed limit being applied and late last year the first section, Sankeys to Traveston, was opened but was only limited to 100 instead of 110 as originally stated when it was started.

I drive this road regulary and cannot remember the last time I travelled on it without seeing at least one speed camera or LIDAR.

It is interesting to note that the only places the speed cameras or LIDAR operate are on the new freeway or the various 4 lane overtaking zones which are not the dangerous bits.

I suspect they were just not making enough money enforcng the dangerous bits as drivers were not exceeding the number on the sign as it was DANGEROUS.

But getting back to how all this ties into the tunnels going broke. I believe that the people of Queensland are suffering from "road tax" fatigue.

More tolls, more speed cameras, highest rego in the country, fuel subsidy stopped yet crap roads and long distances.

People are not silly. It is easy to avoid paying the tunnel tax by just not using the tunnel and it is easy to go as fast as you feel safe by just avoiding the main roads as due to the focus on revenue all of the enforcement is situated where they can issue the most fines........

[Itsme]

Brisbane tunnel goes broke....don't worry your government will still charge a toll and every person living in Queensland will make up the short fall through indirect taxes....

[2011G6E]

The road toll is the lowest for nearly sixty years...something the public won't see shouted from the rooftops any time soon unfortunately...

http://www.minister.infrastructure.g...K001_2011.aspx
http://www.caradvice.com.au/156631/a...st-since-1946/

We had a campaign in Queensland last year to "beat 300" (road deaths). There was much wailing and nashing of teeth about the "massive" number of deaths, and how "drivers just won't listen!!".

Sometime back in the early nineties, in Queensland we had another road toll catchy slogan..."Stay Alive, Beat 515"...the road toll from the year before.

The roads are getting safer, drivers are getting better, but no one wants to admit it...

[mac_man_luke]

More like...

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

The roads are getting safer, drivers CARs are getting better, but no one wants to admit it...

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by mac_man_luke

More like...

The roads are getting safer, drivers CARs are getting better, but no one wants to admit it...

well corrected

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by mac_man_luke

More like...

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by [B

2011G6E[/B]
The roads are getting safer, drivers CARs are getting better, but no one wants to admit it...

I have to agree. I have recently returned from 6 years living in Europe and on the roads One thing I have noticed is the more modern' fleet ' of Australian cars. Traditionally we have had the oldest 'fleet' in the world averaging 10 years. I'm guessing the road toll is lower because our cars protect us better. That and nobody dare drive in Victoria for fear of fines and the cost of fuel, insurance, rego, etc basically pushing everyone off the road. Cant be a road toll statistic if you die of boredom in your lounge room
The other thing I have noticed is how bad the Australian drivers are. I'm not talking michael schumaker type skills but Courtesy, patience, respect and observation. Most of them don't know whats going on around them, or care and if they do they will take advantage of any opportunity irrespective of who else is there or in the right...Then theirs the c...nts who will abuse you for the type of car you choose to drive. Very poor on all counts
JP

[Angeldust]

i just got stung with a toll-bill, for failing to pay the toll one day 2 weeks ago. My beeper has failed, or so it seems, and didnt beep through the toll. I now have to pay the bill which is the cost of the toll + the admin fee (which is ~$8) by the due date (in 2 weeks) and failing that it will be a $140 bill.

Now what really annoys me, i don't normally drive this section of the road but so happened to be on it (gateway/logan motorway stretch in brissy) and found that the signage was very poor and i almost didn't know i was going through a toll point until right upon it. I also have to figure out why my stupid e-toll tag beeper wasn't working.


How did we build all our infastructure in the 50 year period between 1940's-1990's? It saeems today we have to scrape for every metre of road/tunnel/bridge, yet the taxes payed would be at a record level due to the increase in population. The majority of our roadways, infustructure, dams, railways was all built 50 years ago... how did we afford it then?

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by flappist

I do not care.

I will not use tunnels that have lots of speed cameras purely out of principle unless I absolutely have to and if so will travel at 30 or more km/h below the speed limit "for safety"......

I do exactly the same if I am forced to drive anywhere in Victoria, again, "for safety".

After all, any place that has lots of speed cameras MUST be a very dangerous place.......

I have a similar philosophy. Victoriastan is now a no go place for me. I have some properties down there that I used to visit on occasion. Now I have vowed never to set foot in the place again.... Its a beautiful place but sadly it is a perfect example of the Australian model of federation that is now so very broken and disfunctional.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

Thank you for demonstrating that speed cameras are totally ineffective against persons who are deliberately endangering the public through travelling at extremely high speed in the tunnels and actual Police enforcement is needed and supporting the general consensus that their primary purpose is generating revenue.....

Any new road system that requires 16 speed cameras must be very dangerous indeed,
surely, the government would be obligated to either close it down or forced to modify it to
make it safe enough to remove all those cameras. people should insist on this happening.

In the meantime I like a lot of other drivers will be avoiding them, this is the best way
to send a message to bureaucrats that see motorists as cash cows to be toyed with.

[new2ford]

One factor in these private toll roads failing is that car use in cities has been declining for years:

http://www.theage.com.au/national/be...709-1h7zq.html

So the traffic forecasts don't materialise. Public transport use, particularly trains, has been growing fast on the other hand - but getting overcrowded. The investment is being poured into the wrong transport mode considering the general trend.

Sounds like a complete fiasco, now two in Brisbane, two in Sydney:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-2...fiasco/4529088

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by aus880

the cameras detected the speeds and highlighted the issue as stated clearly in the article

police then brought the issue to a head via the courts and the offender was dealt

if there were no cameras he might still be doing it now

Of course they did. Here’s a picture of the arresting officers, including one of the original speed camera images, complete with bird. Thanks SGT Fred Gassit for making the tunnel safer for the rest of the Volvo driving community.

Originally Posted by mcnews

And he did all those times with no harm to himself or any other...

I’m afraid you’re wrong there. Have you wondered why there are no baby seals at Taronga Park Zoo? Dead, all of them. The high pitched resonance from the 4 into 1 system penetrated the tunnel walls and killed all of the baby seals, dead.

And I forgot to mention, the motorcycle rider was killed seven times and the decaying corpse was ordered to pay a $716 plus court costs.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

I have a similar philosophy. Victoriastan is now a no go place for me. I have some properties down there that I used to visit on occasion. Now I have vowed never to set foot in the place again.... Its a beautiful place but sadly it is a perfect example of the Australian model of federation that is now so very broken and disfunctional.

Best you stay up there, princess. The truck drivers are mad down here. You wouldn’t like them.

[Olbucko]

Originally Posted by cobramania

Cross City Tunnel gets handed back Dec. 2035
Eastern Distributor gets handed back July 2048
Hills M2 gets handed back May 2042
Lane Cove Tunnel gets handed back January 2037
M5 South-West gets handed back August 2023
M5 East is owned by the NSW Government, but operated by a private company on behalf of the Government, (There are no tolls here).
Westlink M7 gets handed back February 2037

Great stuff! I can hardly wait till 2048 when I turn 101 and can drive down the Eastern Distributor for free.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Olbucko

Great stuff! I can hardly wait till 2048 when I turn 101 and can drive down the Eastern Distributor for free.

Yeah I tell ya, that list of dates keeps me going.

Hang on, I think I've forgotten to take my longevity pill today

Will there still be cars in 2048 or will we be teleporting - or just working from home?

[csv8]

No, you will engage the flux capacitor and then select warp drive and be in Sydney in 5 minutes from Melbourne !!

[mike_nofx]

Seriously, why should I pay near $50k in tax a year, plus rego costs, fuel taxes, etc... Only to be charged to drive on a road, any road, anywhere in Australia.

I don't regularly drive on roads where a toll road is present, but whenever I do I am sure to hit "avoid tolls" on the GPS. In 90% of cases, the estimated time is less than 5 minutes extra.

Last time I was a passenger in a car going through a toll road M5 I believe it was, we were in traffic jam conditions and had to pay a $5 toll, nice!

[csv8]

Legal action over the traffic estimates for the first of Brisbane’s two toll tunnels to go into receivership is set to return to court.

Maurice Blackburn Lawyers is representing 800 RiverCity Motorway investors hoping to recover losses of more than $150 million from the firm which prepared the traffic forecasts for the Clem7.

The tunnel, which goes under the Brisbane River from Buranda to Bowen Hills, went into receivership in February 2011. The Airport Link followed suit on Tuesday.

On Friday, representatives from Maurice Blackburn Lawyers, which began the Clem7 court action in May 2012, will appear in a Sydney Federal Court for a directions hearing.
Advertisement

Engineering consultants, Maunsells, predicted the Clem7 would open with about 60,000 vehicles a day, and would carry an average daily volume of 100,000 vehicles by 2012.

The tunnel, which in December carried about 26,711 vehicles a day, has carried about 25 per cent of the volume predicted since it opened in 2010 and the tolls were introduced.

Maunsells merged with AECOM in 2009, and Maurice Blackburn Lawyers argues the company's traffic forecasts for RiverCity’s ill-fated Clem7 were inaccurate.

It says AECOM failed to reveal earlier traffic forecasts the consultant had developed for Brisbane City Council which produced traffic volumes substantially below those in the product disclosure statement.

In November 2009 Fairfax Media reported concerns a discrepancy amounting to 50,000 vehicles per day between two sets of traffic projections for the Clem7 tunnel.

Meanwhile a spokesman for McGrath Nichol, which on Tuesday appointed administrators for Airport Link, said it was "too early" to say if legal action would be taken against Arup, which prepared traffic estimates for the tunnel.

In 2008, the company predicted 138,885 vehicles would use the tunnel daily after it had been opened for a month.

It forecast that after 15 months, 195,378 vehicles a day would use the tunnel.

The company last night declined to comment on its traffic projections.

The latest traffic figures show an average of 47,802 vehicles use the 6.7 kilometre Airport Link each day.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...220-2erse.html