$700-a-year increase running an airconditioner & snap price rises of as much as 15,000 %

[NC1183]

Whenever an electrician installs anything like an AirCon etc they are supposed to notify the supply authority to allow them to ensure the network is adequate.

Solar is having a huge unreported impact on the electrical network, areas where there were problems with the voltage being to low are now suffering with the voltage being to high with the seer number of local generation sites feeding into the grid.

Blackouts in summer aren't caused by power lines melting due to overloads, you might get a connector failing, or a piece of "bridging" but not the lines themselves. They do melt if they get hit by lightning but then so do most things.

[Charliewool]

My take on this entire fiasco is bloody greedy privately owned providers who do buggerall to keep up with, not just a growing population, but a more 21st century power reliant population... We pay pay pay pay until it hurts..
Their input as far as infrastructure upgrades or future planning is nonexistent (or minimal at best)
A damn disgrace I reckon!

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

My take on this entire fiasco is bloody greedy privately owned providers who do buggerall to keep up with, not just a growing population, but a more 21st century power reliant population... We pay pay pay pay until it hurts..
Their input as far as infrastructure upgrades or future planning is nonexistent (or minimal at best)
A damn disgrace I reckon!

Speaking for Victoria only our mate Jeff kennet mandated that power prices to be capped for about 10 years when the SEC was privatised by the power companies in 2000, for the last 5 years these companies are now playing catch up on price hikes & like all privatised companies maintenance will be minimal to maximise profits.

[danzvtil]

www.sapowernetworks.com.au/public/download.jsp?id=11891

Google DEMAND MANAGEMENT, the link above outlines the beginning of the trial, the jist of it is copied below.

4.3.3.1 Direct Load Control Phase I

This trial which was completed in March 2006

19 was reported in some detail in Interim

Report No 1. It sought to:

•

determine customer perception of change in comfort levels resulting from the

remote management of domestic air conditioners;

•

determine the impact on aggregate demand for the sites in the trial;

•

gain experience in the installation and operation of proprietary technology;

•

test the performance of selected control technology; and

•

gain experience in quantification, metrics and verification.

A sample size of 20 customers was selected from a pool of 50 customers in the

Adelaide metropolitan area that represented a cross section of the community in

terms of: house type; age of house; occupants’ lifestyle; metropolitan geographic

location and size and type of air conditioner.

The results of the trial confirmed that external control of air conditioners had taken

place and that customers felt no perceptible reduction in comfort levels.

In terms of aggregate demand, the trial confirmed that forced cycling of airconditioner

compressors reduced aggregate demand in the sample group by about

17% from a peak of approximately 30 kW. Also ETSA Utilities gained useful experience,

albeit on a limited scale of: roll out of controllers; control cycle times; customer

behaviour; communications reliability and management and storage of metered

data.

These important learnings were used to inform the larger scale Phase II & III trials.

[Franco Cozzo]

I cracked the ***** with my car because it wouldn't blow less than 6 degrees out the vents with the A/C on, now I've got it down to 1.5 degrees so I'm going to notice if A/C goes off somewhere in someones house.

You could also save a lot of load on the grid if you forced refrigeration systems to use hydrocarbon refrigerants as they cool more effectively and are easier for the compressor to compress so less load, they spend more time off as a result as they can maintain cooler temperatures with less effort.

But that would hurt a certain synthetic refrigerant industry under the guise of "safety" because they are flammable, which is their main propaganda for their war on the hydrocarbon refrigerant industry.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

www.sapowernetworks.com.au/public/download.jsp?id=11891

Google DEMAND MANAGEMENT, the link above outlines the beginning of the trial, the jist of it is copied below.

4.3.3.1 Direct Load Control Phase I

This trial which was completed in March 2006

19 was reported in some detail in Interim

Report No 1. It sought to:

•

determine customer perception of change in comfort levels resulting from the

remote management of domestic air conditioners;

•

determine the impact on aggregate demand for the sites in the trial;

•

gain experience in the installation and operation of proprietary technology;

•

test the performance of selected control technology; and

•

gain experience in quantification, metrics and verification.

A sample size of 20 customers was selected from a pool of 50 customers in the

Adelaide metropolitan area that represented a cross section of the community in

terms of: house type; age of house; occupants’ lifestyle; metropolitan geographic

location and size and type of air conditioner.

The results of the trial confirmed that external control of air conditioners had taken

place and that customers felt no perceptible reduction in comfort levels.

In terms of aggregate demand, the trial confirmed that forced cycling of airconditioner

compressors reduced aggregate demand in the sample group by about

17% from a peak of approximately 30 kW. Also ETSA Utilities gained useful experience,

albeit on a limited scale of: roll out of controllers; control cycle times; customer

behaviour; communications reliability and management and storage of metered

data.

These important learnings were used to inform the larger scale Phase II & III trials.

The start of this trial goes back to 2006, with how fast technology has progressed, smart meters etc have rendered obsolete some of the actions taken here.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

A relay I guess, trigger it with the smart meter.

Do they do 240V/415V relays?

I doubt they'd do that sort of stuff though, if I had A/C and they turned it off I'd be on their door steps holding signs and yelling

they have the smartmeter software ability to turn hot water systems on and off by suburb to balance loads across the network in Melbourne.


I know they do because I have an ombudsman case to have that featuret removed from my premises.

Basically they boost my solar hot water system on weekends, in the middle of the day...BUT...I said what if the sun is shining??

DUHHH...was the response.

It would be a simple extension of that system nonetheless.

[2011G6E]

*Sigh*...I remember back in the seventies we looked forward to a bright future of cheap limitless power, with electrical devices to do all sorts of things around the house.
Of course governments refuse to grow a pair and invest in nuclear, and coal...while being staggeringly cheap and stupidly plentiful for centuries to come...is artificially inflated in price. So yes...we have all the wonderous electrical goods that would have amazed us back then, but no one can afford to run them...

This is just a ploy to keep people snowed under with bills...a populace who can save money and get ahead isn't what the powers that be want. People who are scared to death of losing their jobs make compliant little drones.

Not to mention shift workers...what sort of concession up here in baking hot Queensland will shift workers who have to try and sleep during the "hottest part of the day" (when the parasites are going to try and boost the power price to ludicrous levels) going to afford to run their air conditioners, as suggested by the governments own information on how to get quality sleep when working shifts?

To be blunt...it's the 21st century. Things that were once seen as "expensive luxuries for the rich" are now normal household appliances and fitments. Why shouldn't people be able to live in modern times with all modern conveniences they can bloody well feel like having in their house without being made to feel guilty for doing it or punished into poverty by greedy governments and companies?

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I seem to recall this rearing it's head a couple of years ago. Community outrage made it go quiet, looks like the powers that be have decided to have a go again...

Not the first time the government has done this, and won't be the last. It's usually done by a "leak" of a "discussion paper". Then they sit back and see what the public response is. If people don't speak up, they'll look at bringing it in...if people complain loud and clear, the government will scoff and say it was "just a discussion paper" and "never seriously considered for policy".
I remember vividly back in the Bob Hawke days there was a "leak" of a paper from a government think tank on how to reduce the numbers of homeless people. The brilliant idea was that pensioners usually have a few spare rooms in their houses, so a government stooge would come into the old peoples homes, assess how many extra people could live there, and move homeless families in, in return for some sort of concession to the homeowners.
This caused huge outrage...my retired parents as well...and it was quickly dropped and everyone was assured it was "never going to be seriously considered as policy" and was "only a discussion paper from a meeting".

...Sure it was...

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I remember vividly back in the Bob Hawke days there was a "leak" of a paper from a government think tank on how to reduce the numbers of homeless people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx0IeQQ7WjI

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by zilo

they have the smartmeter software ability to turn hot water systems on and off by suburb to balance loads across the network in Melbourne.


I know they do because I have an ombudsman case to have that featuret removed from my premises.

Basically they boost my solar hot water system on weekends, in the middle of the day...BUT...I said what if the sun is shining??

DUHHH...was the response.

It would be a simple extension of that system nonetheless.

this would be a way of doing it but in todays modern world I truly think that would drive many to go "off grid".

folks work hard and earn decent money now, much to the chagrin of the upper echelons, the unwashed now want parity with the blue bloods, damn their hides.

solar/generators are cheap now, would be an easy thing to tell the powers that be to "stick your lines where the sun don't shine".

mess with my air-con and I'm gone, I'm one step away (batteries) from being self sufficient, only my power credit holding me to the moguls.

I do remember a few "trials" that never went anywhere and I don't think they ever will, folks are just too damn savvy now,

oh! for the good old Whitlam days when people were more docile, compliant and simply did as they were blooming well told.

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Not the first time the government has done this, and won't be the last. It's usually done by a "leak" of a "discussion paper". Then they sit back and see what the public response is. If people don't speak up, they'll look at bringing it in...if people complain loud and clear, the government will scoff and say it was "just a discussion paper" and "never seriously considered for policy".
I remember vividly back in the Bob Hawke days there was a "leak" of a paper from a government think tank on how to reduce the numbers of homeless people. The brilliant idea was that pensioners usually have a few spare rooms in their houses, so a government stooge would come into the old peoples homes, assess how many extra people could live there, and move homeless families in, in return for some sort of concession to the homeowners.
This caused huge outrage...my retired parents as well...and it was quickly dropped and everyone was assured it was "never going to be seriously considered as policy" and was "only a discussion paper from a meeting".

Sorry, had to read that again. LOL, are you serious? No wonder his only legacy is skulling a beer. Forgive me, in the 80`s I was running around the lounge room playing with He-Man figurines so don't remember a great deal about Politics. Although I do remember seeing footage of Bob Hawke copping a bouncer to the head in district cricket. I found that quite amusing, especially when his glasses exploded in his face. My apologies for being a sadist and derailing the thread at the same time.

[ute83]

Anybody buying a new ac unit should check under the cover where it gets wired up. There is another connection there that says " to smart meter ".

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by ute83

Anybody buying a new ac unit should check under the cover where it gets wired up. There is another connection there that says " to smart meter ".

O rly

Didn't know that.

Good luck pulling the plug on my 15 year old evaporative system, Govco

[jpblue1000]

Why is this a surprise, why is this an issue that isn't understood.
I believe the Australian people should own our power generation. But we sold it to private companies years ago for a short term cash injection.
Every private company has the drive to make profit, as yours does or would if you worked for yourself.

Philosophical question time!

Why are profits acceptable when you receive them but not acceptable when you have to pay for them.
If you don't like the price buy elsewhere or find alternates or use less!
Who says you have a right to cheap power?


JP

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Why is this a surprise, why is this an issue that isn't understood.
I believe the Australian people should own our power generation. But we sold it to private companies years ago for a short term cash injection.
Every private company has the drive to make profit, as yours does or would if you worked for yourself.

Philosophical question time!

Why are profits acceptable when you receive them but not acceptable when you have to pay for them.
If you don't like the price buy elsewhere or find alternates or use less!
Who says you have a right to cheap power?


JP

Yes, good question, while essential services "should" be run for the good of the people by govco, they are extremely inefficient at doing so, the private sector are better. The only exception I take to privatization is where an energy company in SA has "guaranteed profit" built into their agreement which is a license to print money and roger the consumer in one go.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Why is this a surprise, why is this an issue that isn't understood.
I believe the Australian people should own our power generation. But we sold it to private companies years ago for a short term cash injection.
Every private company has the drive to make profit, as yours does or would if you worked for yourself.

Philosophical question time!

Why are profits acceptable when you receive them but not acceptable when you have to pay for them.
If you don't like the price buy elsewhere or find alternates or use less!
Who says you have a right to cheap power?


JP

Don't mind paying for the energy costs rises but as long as the companies can justify the increases & guarantee of services, atm costs are sky rocketing with threats of power black outs is just not on imo!!!

[2011G6E]

The awkward fact that no government wants to own up to is that in a tiny country like ours (by world standards...we have less people than some large urban areas overseas), there just isn't the population base to allow for several companies to all be offering the same service efficiently.

With our small population, the government should run everything...power, water, communications, postal service...and just wear it on the chin if it isn't "massively profitable". As long as it breaks even that's all that matters...and maybe not even then in some areas.

If you try and hand it over to private enterprise because of claims they can "do it better" you're just asking for huge hikes in bills and lack of service to unprofitable areas. We simply don 't have the population base to indulge that sort of foolishness.
Once you give it to a public company, with shareholders, only one thing matters: not customer satisfaction, not a pleasant corporate image, not giving back to the community...the only thing that matters is "return to shareholders", and if shareholders don't see a rise year on year, they'll jump ship, so any staff cuts and putting off of maintenance is justified in keeping that bottom line growing.
"Competition"? Not outside the capital cities...we've actually had people move here from Brisbane and honestly ask "who's the best power company to go with up here for a good deal?"...and the answers are usually "Well you have the choice of Ergon, Ergon, Ergon...or...umm...Ergon". Either everyone should be able to benefit from this amazing world of competition we hear about, or no one should. It's no use for the government to shout about this wonderful world of free market competition if everyone can't get in on it and benefit from it equally, no matter where they are.

In a fair Australia with our small population, the government would run power, water, and other essential services, not worry about profitability, and subsidise things to keep the long suffering taxpayer as happy as possible.


Couldn't work? No? Take this as a mental exercise: Say they privatized "for the sake of efficiency" the postal service.
Do you think you'd pay the same price for a stamp in Darwin as you do in Sydney...?
Or take power supply...people in Brisbane benefit from competition and a wide choice of power companies because of privatization. Now...this is only done because of a concentration of population in that corner of the state. Say the whole state power system was privatised (leased out, whatever...).
How much do you think people in far flung corners of the state would be paying for power where there isn't the population base to make it "pleasant" for the poor old shareholders/investors? How much maintenance would the company be bothered to do out in the bush where a power outage might annoy a couple of hundred people, as opposed to tens of thousands down in Brisbane/Gold Coast area...?

You're very very naive if you think private companies would even worry about dodgy power supplies for country areas...

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

With our small population, the government should run everything...power, water, communications, postal service...and just wear it on the chin if it isn't "massively profitable". As long as it breaks even that's all that matters...and maybe not even then in some areas.

Put it back in the governments hands & you will pay just as much through tax increases, money to run these services has to come from some where.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by trublu

Put it back in the governments hands & you will pay just as much through tax increases, money to run these services has to come from some where.

However, a government usually already has (or used to...) the maintenance all sorted already in-house.

The railways up here are a prime example...they used to have track repair gangs situated all over the state at strategic locations and track repairs and maintenance were done quickly and efficiently. Then they privatised it and in the name of "keeping costs down" and pleasing the almighty shareholders, they sacked most of the gangs. Now repairs and general maintenance take weeks to months to be done, or require expensive use of contractors.

[AUwindsor]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

I heard about it and had to check the date to make sure it wasn't April the 1st..........

No but it is 1984

[dragons90]

If they turn off the air conditioner in a neighborhood off for 30 minutes what happens when they turn them back on won't there be a big spike when they all turn on. Aren't inverter air cons more efficient because they run not stop not constantly stoping and starting.

[2011G6E]

I think I may have come up with a reason why they're doing this...

Forget the "official" reasons...they're rubbish.

Consider this: Summertime in Queensland...peoples houses are hot as hell, you want a bit of comfort so turn on your air conditioners. They work like buggery, consuming heaps of power while they work hard to get the house or room down to the temperature you set...even if you set it at the most efficient 25 degrees. Once down to that temp the air cons work a lot more efficiently and use less power.

Now remotely turn off everyones air cons for that four hour "busy period" and their houses will warm up...and when they go back on, what do you think happens to power usage (and everyones bills) for that area for another long period while the houses are cooled down again...?


Nice way for the companies to make a bit of extra coin...

[poppa smurf]

^^^^ you don't belong in this debate.......I'm sighting you for sprouting too much common sense.

can't have too much of that now can we!....get out!

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

^^^^ you don't belong in this debate.......I'm sighting you for sprouting too much common sense.

can't have too much of that now can we!....get out!

The realization came to me purely by accident. We had the air con going in the morning when the heat really began to build, and after a couple of hours of working hard you could hear how the air conditioner evened off and wasn't working near as hard once the temperature inside got down to 25. We then went out for a few hours...turning the air con off when we left...and on returning the inside/outside weather station I have said it was back up to 31 degrees inside. Turn air con on again and it worked it's ring out cooling the room down, taking quite a while to get the temp down again. This was after only a couple of hours.

Then it struck me..."Hey...wait a minute..."

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

The realization came to me purely by accident. We had the air con going in the morning when the heat really began to build, and after a couple of hours of working hard you could hear how the air conditioner evened off and wasn't working near as hard once the temperature inside got down to 25. We then went out for a few hours...turning the air con off when we left...and on returning the inside/outside weather station I have said it was back up to 31 degrees inside. Turn air con on again and it worked it's ring out cooling the room down, taking quite a while to get the temp down again. This was after only a couple of hours.

Then it struck me..."Hey...wait a minute..."

I think all that is happening there is the fan slows down once the set temperature is reached. I think the refrigerant pump etc is still working so the difference in power draw would be minimal.

[Agile]

Here is another issue you may want to investigate. A new client of mine needed a range hood replaced so in doing the removal and install I had to get into the roof space. About 36 degrees outside so she had the air going flat out. I did notice that her termostat was set at 19 degrees so I jokingly said to her, we are going to freeze in here. She said even though the aircon was only 18 months old it didnt seem to work as well as most of her friends home aircons.
So I get into the roof to find that the replacement indoor unit was " matched up to" the original ducting with about 10 km,s of grey duct tape, which had OFF COURSE !!! failed. The result. Return air was sucking stinking hot air into the unit and the outlet side was blowing cold air [sort of] straight into the roof space. I would say 50% of the cooled air.
I made some temp repairs with some MORE duct tape and a couple of old bed sheets.Resulted in termastat now running at 25 degrees and it aparently is freezing inside the house. I would estimate that her power bill will probably be halved.
The shonky BAR STEWARDS who had ripped her off had also done the worst install I have ever seen. Almost $6000 for a system I can buy for $3600 and have my air guy install in about .5 of a day. Anybody who is using a reasonably reputable NE suburban airconditioning company in Adelaide, check your install!!

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Agile

Here is another issue you may want to investigate. A new client of mine needed a range hood replaced so in doing the removal and install I had to get into the roof space. About 36 degrees outside so she had the air going flat out. I did notice that her termostat was set at 19 degrees so I jokingly said to her, we are going to freeze in here. She said even though the aircon was only 18 months old it didnt seem to work as well as most of her friends home aircons.
So I get into the roof to find that the replacement indoor unit was " matched up to" the original ducting with about 10 km,s of grey duct tape, which had OFF COURSE !!! failed. The result. Return air was sucking stinking hot air into the unit and the outlet side was blowing cold air [sort of] straight into the roof space. I would say 50% of the cooled air.
I made some temp repairs with some MORE duct tape and a couple of old bed sheets.Resulted in termastat now running at 25 degrees and it aparently is freezing inside the house. I would estimate that her power bill will probably be halved.
The shonky BAR STEWARDS who had ripped her off had also done the worst install I have ever seen. Almost $6000 for a system I can buy for $3600 and have my air guy install in about .5 of a day. Anybody who is using a reasonably reputable NE suburban airconditioning company in Adelaide, check your install!!

I had to look twice when our installer ran the duct tape, a full roll was used on each outlet, half a roll on the inner duct and the other half on the outer insulation.

when queried on this he said "I don't want to have to come back because one blew off!"

must use an awful lot of duct tape, used a box of them just on my install.......I shoulda bought shares in duct tape.

[blueoval]

You would think a/c companies would design a duct system that interlocks and doesn't require the use of the mediocre/unreliable duct tape solution.

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by Agile

Here is another issue you may want to investigate. A new client of mine needed a range hood replaced so in doing the removal and install I had to get into the roof space. About 36 degrees outside so she had the air going flat out. I did notice that her termostat was set at 19 degrees so I jokingly said to her, we are going to freeze in here. She said even though the aircon was only 18 months old it didnt seem to work as well as most of her friends home aircons.
So I get into the roof to find that the replacement indoor unit was " matched up to" the original ducting with about 10 km,s of grey duct tape, which had OFF COURSE !!! failed. The result. Return air was sucking stinking hot air into the unit and the outlet side was blowing cold air [sort of] straight into the roof space. I would say 50% of the cooled air.
I made some temp repairs with some MORE duct tape and a couple of old bed sheets.Resulted in termastat now running at 25 degrees and it aparently is freezing inside the house. I would estimate that her power bill will probably be halved.
The shonky BAR STEWARDS who had ripped her off had also done the worst install I have ever seen. Almost $6000 for a system I can buy for $3600 and have my air guy install in about .5 of a day. Anybody who is using a reasonably reputable NE suburban airconditioning company in Adelaide, check your install!!

Is that an "Irish" fitting, a termostat

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by blueoval

You would think a/c companies would design a duct system that interlocks and doesn't require the use of the mediocre/unreliable duct tape solution.

I think its got more to do with people not paying for the fancy interlocking system as duct tape is cheap and 'does the job'

JP