Twilight for the traditional ICE automobile - Page 10

Franco Cozzo · 17-07-2021, 09:23 PM

I hope battery technology improves significantly in the next 10 years or so.

There's some interesting dramas around batteries needing Cobalt - who the 'Democratic' Republic of Congo are the world's major supplier of Cobalt required in lithium ion batteries (much like Australia supplies most of the worlds lithium).

There was a lawsuit filed in the USA in 2019 targeting the major tech companies and Tesla over using slave/child labour from the DRC:

Quote:

Legal Argument

IRAdvocates, a US-based NGO, filed a federal class action lawsuit against Apple, Google, Alphabet, Microsoft, Dell, and Tesla. The lawsuit was filed on behalf of 14 plaintiffs who are either guardians of children killed in tunnel or walls collapses while mining cobalt in the DRC, or are children who were maimed in such accidents. All plaintiffs are representative of a larger class of unnamed children who have faced similar injuries from mining hazards. All defendants make up a large portion of buyers in the cobalt market. The plaintiffs assert claims for forced child labour in violation of the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act. They also seek relief based on common law claims of unjust enrichment, negligent supervision, and intentional infliction of emotional distress. They request that the Court order the defendants to create a fund to contribute to the appropriate medical care of the plaintiffs and other unnamed children who were injured while mining cobalt.

In their motion to dismiss, the companies contend that under the definitions contained in the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act (TVPRA), “an entire global supply chain is not a ‘venture’”. The companies further claim that the maimed and dead child miners were not “forced” into labour which they said only encompasses labour that is compelled by direct threats of force or harm from the employer, and not labour that is compelled by other circumstances, such as economic pressure. Finally, the companies claim they did not have “requisite knowledge” of the abuses at the specific mining sites mentioned, and that “knowledge of a general problem in an industry...is insufficient” to prove they knew about the violations that had injured the plaintiffs.

Legal Proceeding

On 15 December 2019, plaintiffs filed a class action in the US District Court for the District of Columbia against Apple, Alphabet, Google, Dell, and Tesla.

On 25 August 2020, the defendants filed a motion in response, denying liability.

https://www.business-humanrights.org...ld-labour-drc/

Anyone who subscribes to Nebula, this is worth a watch:

https://nebula.app/videos/real-engin...ortage-problem

It talks about supply chain issues around manufacturing batteries for EVs from minerals perspective, nickel, lithium iron, cobalt etc.

Australia is probably in a good place to capitalise on this opportunity if we're smart, but we're a nation of morons who can't see past a 3 year election cycle so we'll probably let this pass by us

**kypez** · 17-07-2021, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I hope battery technology improves significantly in the next 10 years or so.

There's some interesting dramas around batteries needing Cobalt - who the 'Democratic' Republic of Congo are the world's major supplier of Cobalt required in lithium ion batteries (much like Australia supplies most of the worlds lithium).

There was a lawsuit filed in the USA in 2019 targeting the major tech companies and Tesla over using slave/child labour from the DRC:

https://www.business-humanrights.org...ld-labour-drc/

LFP batteries used in the SR 3/Y models are already Cobalt free. They will move this into other models soon enough.

hayseed · 17-07-2021, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

(much like Australia supplies most of the worlds lithium).
l

Good, I've got shares in a Lithium Mining Co...

Hope they can ride the EV boom..

Franco Cozzo · 17-07-2021, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayseed

Good, I've got shares in a Lithium Mining Co...

Hope they can ride the EV boom..

I too have shares in some resource companies catering to this market, and also hydrogen

jpd80 · 18-07-2021, 09:29 AM

There’s vested interest with keeping with current lithium based batteries - its gravy to them
and it provides the funding to develop the next generation of more efficient battery tech.
Eliminating cobalt is a saving for battery companies that probably won’t be passed to buyers…

The other thing here is that as batteries become cheaper, that helps hybrids stay around longer,
this is a funny development period where all forms of electrification are benefiting, so opportunity
for skeptics to put a toe in the water with hybrids/PHEVs as a final step before embracing BEVs.

The price of fuel is the final driver, many have forgotten how painful high prices are, so let that
sting be the a reminder to people of how much electrification cuts those costs.

AMB · 18-07-2021, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

.....

The price of fuel is the final driver, many have forgotten how painful high prices are, so let that
sting be the a reminder to people of how much electrification cuts those costs.

So if Australia magically changed 95% of all vehicles to electric overnight, how much extra power would we need on the grid? The equivalent in coal fired power stations seems to be an easily understood measure. Without a doubt we need to start building the infrastructure now, and quickly. The cost of building and maintaining that infrastructure will be built into the cost of supply, and it aint gonna be cheap.

**kypez** · 18-07-2021, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMB

So if Australia magically changed 95% of all vehicles to electric overnight, how much extra power would we need on the grid? The equivalent in coal fired power stations seems to be an easily understood measure. Without a doubt we need to start building the infrastructure now, and quickly. The cost of building and maintaining that infrastructure will be built into the cost of supply, and it aint gonna be cheap.

Totally agree. The grid operators aren't not aware of this. I'm sure they're already building capacity and, as many have found, there is more money with renewables rather than our coal and gas systems (much to the dismay of our PM).

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jpd80 · 18-07-2021, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMB

So if Australia magically changed 95% of all vehicles to electric overnight, how much extra power would we need on the grid? The equivalent in coal fired power stations seems to be an easily understood measure. Without a doubt we need to start building the infrastructure now, and quickly. The cost of building and maintaining that infrastructure will be built into the cost of supply, and it aint gonna be cheap.

Your question is moot as charging at night away from peak load is not the problem,
it’s actually good business for power companies to run at higher off peak loads
and earn more income with zero increase of generation equipment.

That way, power companies can justify increasing generation equipment, encouraging
more home solar systems and battery storage, turn households into mini generators.

AMB · 18-07-2021, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Your question is moot as charging at night away from peak load is not the problem,
it’s actually good business for power companies to run at higher off peak loads
and earn more income with zero increase of generation equipment.

That way, power companies can justify increasing generation equipment, encouraging
more home solar systems and battery storage, turn households into mini generators.

Moot? I dont know the actual figures, but I wouldn't be surprised if the extra power generation needed will be huge, maybe in the order of at least an extra 30-40% more power. Thats on top of what we are generating now. We are struggling to replace existing power with green energy, let alone increase it. My point is that its going to take decades to build it and it going to be expensive. Almost seems like you are saying that we have the capacity now.
Edit. Ok so did a little bit of reading to get some data, rather than going by the seat of my pants. I think my thinking is roughly in the ball park. For example, take a look at table 2.2 Australian energy consumption, by fuel type here:
https://www.energy.gov.au/sites/defa..._september.pdf

In 2012–13, the transport sector was Australia's second largest energy
consumer (behind the electricity sector), accounting for 26 per cent of all energy consumption (taken from https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ivmsFgUsFY6qW3)

One interesting thing I read was that shipping and particularly international shipping uses a huge amount of energy.

jpd80 · 18-07-2021, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMB

Moot? I dont know the actual figures, but I wouldn't be surprised if the extra power generation needed will be huge, maybe in the order of at least an extra 30-40% more power. Thats on top of what we are generating now. We are struggling to replace existing power with green energy, let alone increase it. My point is that its going to take decades to build it and it going to be expensive. Almost seems like you are saying that we have the capacity now.

The grid will grow but for now the charging load from those BEVs is currently minuscule
but even if it starts to spike, adding power back to the grid will probably come from
those non-traditional measures I mentioned previously until more generation is approved.

whynot · 18-07-2021, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMB

Moot? I dont know the actual figures, but I wouldn't be surprised if the extra power generation needed will be huge, maybe in the order of at least an extra 30-40% more power.

There are a couple of technical papers available that you might be interested in.

This one from AEMO has some credence, if for no other reason they are the government designated market operator of the electricity and gas grids. (Market as in the buying and selling of electricity and gas.)

https://aemo.com.au/-/media/files/el...ember-2017.pdf

Obviously, lots of assumptions in the figures. That said, the impact of EV seems quite manageable.

five 7 · 18-07-2021, 12:36 PM

Hows this for NZ Government retardation, they have a major push to get us out of diesel utes, by chucking large freebate tax on knew ones, when there is no viable EV alternative in the near future. They have shut coal mines here and stopped any future gas and oil prospecting, so now import dirty brown coal from Indonesia, one million tons last year which is transported truck/train down to Huntly power station, which has its own coal in the area,

the reason the plant was put there in the first place, suppose you would call that clean green and minimal carbon footprint.
The Government had a wake up on friday when farmers rolled tractors into every town in NZ protesting the green agenda supported by tradies in utes. Not sure how they are going to achieve zero carbon with out crippling the farmers and tradies who are the backbone of the country. Where all this extra power from the grid is coming from is mystery to me, we have trouble now. Our Govt seems to be all hat and no cattle.
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU18...s-on-in-nz.htm
https://www.times.co.nz/news/farmers...bours-ute-tax/

Franco Cozzo · 18-07-2021, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by five 7

Hows this for NZ Government retardation, they have a major push to get us out of diesel utes, by chucking large freebate tax on knew ones, when there is no viable EV alternative in the near future. They have shut coal mines here and stopped any future gas and oil prospecting, so now import dirty brown coal from Indonesia, one million tons last year which is transported truck/train down to Huntly power station, which has its own coal in the area,

the reason the plant was put there in the first place, suppose you would call that clean green and minimal carbon footprint.
The Government had a wake up on friday when farmers rolled tractors into every town in NZ protesting the green agenda supported by tradies in utes. Not sure how they are going to achieve zero carbon with out crippling the farmers and tradies who are the backbone of the country. Where all this extra power from the grid is coming from is mystery to me, we have trouble now. Our Govt seems to be all hat and no cattle.
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU18...s-on-in-nz.htm
https://www.times.co.nz/news/farmers...bours-ute-tax/

What a pack of flogs - why buy your brown coal from Indonesia when you could buy it from us here in Australia instead

The whole green movement is the new religious cult, you just need to look like you're doing the right thing, plastic keep cup to the cafe and make sure you get a paper straw.

Its never been about doing the right thing, its all about LOOKING like you care and you're doing the right thing - Saint Jacinda of the Woke is the posterchild of this post modern cult.

smoo · 18-07-2021, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The whole green movement is the new religious cult, you just need to look like you're doing the right thing, plastic keep cup to the cafe and make sure you get a paper straw.

Its never been about doing the right thing, its all about LOOKING like you care and you're doing the right thing - Saint Jacinda of the Woke is the posterchild of this post modern cult.

Not towing the Green agenda is the 21st century version of 1600s England/Europe blashpemy and witch hunts.

Franco Cozzo · 18-07-2021, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoo

Not towing the Green agenda is the 21st century version of 1600s England/Europe blashpemy and witch hunts.

image

Pre pandemic I copped **** from a local cafe in Greens territory Melbourne by its staff and owners for refusing to use a keepcup, and always insisting on paying more and them providing me with the traditional take away cup

If you have a problem with it, then don't offer disposable cups as an option?

I'm good at figuring out what upsets people

The whole woke movement, its tied in with the environmentalism cult it just ends up hurting the businesses who decide to walk that path:

https://www.broadsheet.com.au/melbou...x-closing-down

https://campaignbrief.com/get-woke-g...ion-writedown/

xb74_black · 19-07-2021, 03:58 PM

It is only a mater of time before a viable 'tradie ute' EV platform hits the market. In the states the F150 electric version has been a revelation to many.

At present the ICE rules, but the tipping point is close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by five 7

Hows this for NZ Government retardation, they have a major push to get us out of diesel utes, by chucking large freebate tax on knew ones, when there is no viable EV alternative in the near future. They have shut coal mines here and stopped any future gas and oil prospecting, so now import dirty brown coal from Indonesia, one million tons last year which is transported truck/train down to Huntly power station, which has its own coal in the area,

the reason the plant was put there in the first place, suppose you would call that clean green and minimal carbon footprint.
The Government had a wake up on friday when farmers rolled tractors into every town in NZ protesting the green agenda supported by tradies in utes. Not sure how they are going to achieve zero carbon with out crippling the farmers and tradies who are the backbone of the country. Where all this extra power from the grid is coming from is mystery to me, we have trouble now. Our Govt seems to be all hat and no cattle.
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU18...s-on-in-nz.htm
https://www.times.co.nz/news/farmers...bours-ute-tax/

**kypez** · 18-07-2021, 09:01 PM

Slightly off topic but also on topic

The guy edited his response because he initially said without ICE cars, the trees would die.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

AMB · 18-07-2021, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

Slightly off topic but also on topic

The guy edited his response because he initially said without ICE cars, the trees would die.

image

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

I think this is a important point that we forgot. "Trees" take CO2 out of the air, and the higher CO2 goes, the faster the trees grow. Problem is that starting around the 70s and continuing until now, there has been massive deforestation around the world, so the trees arent there anymore. It wouldnt have saved us, but at least it might have provided a small buffer until we get our sh!t together.

AMB · 18-07-2021, 10:53 PM

Although more likely it will be an agreement where they supply at x c/kWh, if you agree to make available x% of your capacity when they need it. So unless they give you the ability to turn off the supply function whenever you want, I can see people unplugging when fully charged, or not plugging in at all, because they don't want to discharge their battery for various reasons. The other easy option would be to just use a dumb charger, probably a popular option.

whynot · 19-07-2021, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMB

Although more likely it will be an agreement where they supply at x c/kWh, if you agree to make available x% of your capacity when they need it. So unless they give you the ability to turn off the supply function whenever you want, I can see people unplugging when fully charged, or not plugging in at all, because they don't want to discharge their battery for various reasons. The other easy option would be to just use a dumb charger, probably a popular option.

There is a lot of consumer behaviour stuff mixed in with this. I tend to agree with your sentiments.

There is a lot of discussion about Virtual Power Plants, with some Australian based VPP already out there.

However, the down side for the customer is that each cycle of the battery eats into its life expectancy. Already, there has been some complaints of VPP "abusing" customer's batteries with way too many and unnecessary battery cycles. There is also the thorny question of control over charging time and cost. Under some VPP, the energy company can force your battery to full charge (and you pay the price) in anticipation of a discharge cycle later on in the day (hopefully you make a profit).

Personally, I would prefer to keep in control of my battery.

Regardless ... the current thinking is that EV (and their large battery) will be a significant benefit for the electricity grid, provided they are well managed and there are regulations in place to stop certain behaviours.

hayseed · 19-07-2021, 04:00 PM

Ford have figured out how to make EV's more palatable to the Masses...LOL

https://www.drive.com.au/news/ford-c...medium=partner

**kypez** · 19-07-2021, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayseed

Ford have figured out how to make EV's more palatable to the Masses...LOL

https://www.drive.com.au/news/ford-c...medium=partner

That is pretty funny!!

Personally, I've never liked the smell of petrol but each to their own. Hate my race car for the smell of fuel without its cats!

**FTE217** · 19-07-2021, 04:47 PM

gawd, fuel burn is beautiful aroma, especially race ones.
Vegie oil, the speedway was awesum smelling those fumes, av gas, I like it all.
The smell in a race car whilst its cooling down, to live for, love it.
Ford know what its massive USA devotees like even though pushing their quick sewing machines, smart that.

Crazy Dazz · 21-07-2021, 09:58 PM

As someone once said, the difference between a Conservative and a Socialist:

If a conservative likes Electric Cars, he buys one.

But when a Socialistic likes Electric Cars, he tries to make everyone else buy one.

I'm sick of the bigots prattling on about Lectric Cars and wHybrids, and Chinese pieces of crap. Especially the way they've been claiming for the last 40 years that "in ten years' time we'll all be drivin them."
No, we won't. End of Discussion.

If you want to buy one, go ahead and do so. That choice is one of the advantages your socialist buddies haven't stolen from us, yet. Just stop yabbering on about it, and stop trying to justify your opinion by attacking anyone who dares to disagree.

I prefer my cars with a big 6 or V8 engine, manual gearbox, and a clutch controlled by my left-foot. And I will keep driving them even if I have to manufacture my own fuel or gas.
If your electric whizzer gives you anywhere near the same joy, then Mazel Tov. We should all be so fortunate.

Chinese production values will not, overall, match their competitors, certainly not in my lifetime. But that doesn't mean YOU can't buy and enjoy one, much as my friend with her MG. I'll never buy a Chinese car, because that's MY ****ing choice, not yours.

Death will come to us all, and I can imagine that a time will come when I'll be too old for crawling under cars, and too damn ornery to deal with muppets. At time I may well succumb, and buy a Toyota. I can only hope that, come that day, Tojo is still making some form of ICE.

**kypez** · 21-07-2021, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

As someone once said, the difference between a Conservative and a Socialist:

If a conservative likes Electric Cars, he buys one.

But when a Socialistic likes Electric Cars, he tries to make everyone else buy one.

I'm sick of the bigots prattling on about Lectric Cars and wHybrids, and Chinese pieces of crap. Especially the way they've been claiming for the last 40 years that "in ten years' time we'll all be drivin them."
No, we won't. End of Discussion.

If you want to buy one, go ahead and do so. That choice is one of the advantages your socialist buddies haven't stolen from us, yet. Just stop yabbering on about it, and stop trying to justify your opinion by attacking anyone who dares to disagree.

I prefer my cars with a big 6 or V8 engine, manual gearbox, and a clutch controlled by my left-foot. And I will keep driving them even if I have to manufacture my own fuel or gas.
If your electric whizzer gives you anywhere near the same joy, then Mazel Tov. We should all be so fortunate.

Chinese production values will not, overall, match their competitors, certainly not in my lifetime. But that doesn't mean YOU can't buy and enjoy one, much as my friend with her MG. I'll never buy a Chinese car, because that's MY ****ing choice, not yours.

Death will come to us all, and I can imagine that a time will come when I'll be too old for crawling under cars, and too damn ornery to deal with muppets. At time I may well succumb, and buy a Toyota. I can only hope that, come that day, Tojo is still making some form of ICE.

Think the terms you've used aren't correct there.

Evangelist is probably what you're after. Socialist (or Socialistic as you said) would never want anyone to buy anything! They want you taking a bus, not buying cars! And a conservative wouldn't buy an EV in the first place.

I agree, I'll be enjoying my V8 manuals for years to come. But I'd not cut my nose to spite my face and buy a Toyota just cause its an ICE.

But, that's the beauty of choice. We get to enjoy it for the short time that its relevant.

slowsnake · 24-08-2021, 10:17 PM

I read this in my morning paper, here in Perth, I thought it was funny and very good at the same time!
It was in the "Letters to the Editor" part.
Will have to type it in.

SILENT MENACE

The scourge of electric cars was evident when I was about to cross the street in a popular south-West town last weekend.
Taking off like a rocket out of a sidewall parking bay, one of these soundless contraptions scared the behests out of me.
No doubt the G-force acceleration gave the driver a thrill, but his awareness was questionable.
To warn pedestrians, it should be mandated that electric vehicles have a forward facing bullhorn projecting a Back to the Future noise, like a flattened cigarette packet rattling across the spokes of a push bike wheel.
Until then, be aware of these Silent Marauders!

Sid B, City Beach.

Cheers Billy

**kypez** · 24-08-2021, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowsnake

I read this in my morning paper, here in Perth, I thought it was funny and very good at the same time!

It was in the "Letters to the Editor" part.

Will have to type it in.

SILENT MENACE

The scourge of electric cars was evident when I was about to cross the street in a popular south-West town last weekend.

Taking off like a rocket out of a sidewall parking bay, one of these soundless contraptions scared the behests out of me.

No doubt the G-force acceleration gave the driver a thrill, but his awareness was questionable.

To warn pedestrians, it should be mandated that electric vehicles have a forward facing bullhorn projecting a Back to the Future noise, like a flattened cigarette packet rattling across the spokes of a push bike wheel.

Until then, be aware of these Silent Marauders!

Sid B, City Beach.

Cheers Billy

Most countries require some some at low speeds from EVs. Unfortunately, we don't have that requirement here and as such, cars that would get it overseas have that option removed locally.

You can even have a nice lumpy V8 sound on the overseas models if you like.

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