VFacts Jan 2012 Falcon 950 sales!!!!!!!!!

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

1) The ACCC might have a problem with all 3 sitting at the table!
2) Just becuase you think exports are the answer does not mean Ford, Holden, toyota & the Governemnt think it is the answer..All these smart people running the show clearly don't know as much as you!!!

1)

Better call the ACCC now, and mention banks, mining industry and a few other very large corporations that meet with Governments to discuss future plans.

Business meet with Government all the time, they even have organisations to represent them, with meetings.

2)

I didn't say that exports are the answer. I said that if the Government is going to use Australian Tax dollars to fund a private industry, as a tax payer I want assurance that I'm getting value for money. I want to see a long term plan.
If the Government and the manufacturers can not do that, then no Tax dollars should be given to a black hole.

The "smart people"? Are the Korean's, Japanese, German's smarter than our smart people?

This debate is not new. Two of my favourite subjects was Politics and Economics, 25 years ago. We went all the way back to the beginning of Australian Politics and Economics, and I've followed it ever since. Things don't change much, we just get faster, bigger and sometimes smarter. We find new ways to do things, we go back and forth between ideas, etc etc.

I, like many others, want a strong Australia. We want value for money from our tax dollars. We want a country that can compete with the res of the world, for our kids and their kids and so on.

Do me a favour; go check out the automotive archives. particularly from the 1960's to the present. Read about what the automotive industry started as, what Governments have done, and where we're all at now.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

OK... you can see how T6 was handled... ?

apply that strategy with your favorite RWD large car, and there might be something in that.

I'd like to see a mid sized rear wheel drive car. Focus/Cruze size, with the option of a 4cyl for economy and a 6 for performance. Size would mean a cheaper vehicle, compared to the Falcon/Commodore size. It would still have enough room for 4, or even 5 passengers. It could compete against the BMW and baby Lexus.

It could even be used in international racing; touring and rally.

I can dream, can't I?

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by johnydep

2)[INDENT]I didn't say that exports are the answer. I said that if the Government is going to use Australian Tax dollars to fund a private industry, as a tax payer I want assurance that I'm getting value for money. I want to see a long term plan.
If the Government and the manufacturers can not do that, then no Tax dollars should be given to a black hole.

Unfortunately, you can't expect to be in a privledged position to know what long term plans are being considered as competitive advantage is something that they take very seriously. There are some things that just can't be made public knowledge.

What do you mean assurances? Is anything a sure thing these days? The Government is investing in opertations, you call it hand out, but it's an investment. So are you getting value for money? FoA have T6 under their belt, are heavily involved with several FAPA programs and are continuing with E8 platform, with further improvements to make it more competitive, all that for $17 per tax payer... not good value?

The "smart people"? Are the Korean's, Japanese, German's smarter than our smart people?

No...!

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by johnydep

I'd like to see a mid sized rear wheel drive car. Focus/Cruze size, with the option of a 4cyl for economy and a 6 for performance. Size would mean a cheaper vehicle, compared to the Falcon/Commodore size. It would still have enough room for 4, or even 5 passengers. It could compete against the BMW and baby Lexus.

It could even be used in international racing; touring and rally.

I can dream, can't I?

I dont want to be rude, but there is not one single company anywhere in the world building this kind a car, so why do you want Australia to do it??? And why would Ford do that, when they just release Focus? You want the same sized car, but RWD?? WTF for???

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I dont want to be rude, but there is not one single company anywhere in the world building this kind a car, so why do you want Australia to do it??? And why would Ford do that, when they just release Focus? You want the same sized car, but RWD?? WTF for???

To satisfy the 2 enthusiasts that just have to have that size car in RWD even though they don't know why. It's just that their fellow enthusiast mate says FWD is crap - but they don't know why.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I dont want to be rude, but there is not one single company anywhere in the world building this kind a car, so why do you want Australia to do it??? And why would Ford do that, when they just release Focus? You want the same sized car, but RWD?? WTF for???

Relax mate! Notice where I say "I can dream, can't I?".

Just for the record - http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...257926001480B8

http://www.leftlanenews.com/new-car-.../bmw/1-series/

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

OK... you can see how T6 was handled... ?

apply that strategy with your favorite RWD large car, and there might be something in that.

So what, develop it in Australia and have it built in Thailand?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

So what, develop it in Australia and have it built in Thailand?

how is that a bad idea? as much as we'd all love to have our cars locally built, surely that would allow them to build them much cheaper. it would allow them to sell them at a much more attractive price, or sell them at a similar price with much more fat, or option them up a lot more to make them more attractive.

obviously the next model cycle is all but locked in, but come 2016 there's a good chance holden will no longer be building the commodore locally, which would make it virtually impossible for ford to continue its local operations.

its all crystal balling i know, but not beyond the realms of possibility.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

how is that a bad idea?

Ford switching production to Thailand would seriously affect Boss......

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by prydey

how is that a bad idea?

Cause i'd be out of a job

But I doubt switching production to Thailand would save that much money anyway, unless they significantly increased production by exporting, as setting a Thia plant up to build Falcon would cost more than the cheaper labour would save them.

But to get to that stage would require Ford US to actually want the Falcon to be exported, which it doesn't seem like they want.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by prydey

every other car making country around the world protects their own industry with taxes and tariffs, except australia. i don't see the issue with it.

too many people only look inwards and worry about themselves rather than the bigger picture.

What is this mate? Mother Russia? Strike down and crush the evil imports? As I said, WE GET TAXED ENOUGH ON IMPORTS, and LUXURY CARS!!!

Ford aren't failing, the FALCON is. If Ford want a successful falcon, they then need to pull their finger out of their collective pooholes, and do something about it, not just keep peddling an inferior quality product (even compared to its stablemates) whose ONLY claim to fame is its straight line pull, because as other cars catch up in performance, Falcons Turbo/SCharged party tricks become (and have become) yesterdays news. Cant ride on the coat tails of the turbo six and Miami 8 for ever and change little else.

Heres an idea, instead of import tarriffs penalising our right to choose what vehicle suits us, WHY NOT have Govco support Aussie vehicles by abolishing the Lux Car taxing on them, or by reducing stamp duty on the sales of Aussie cars??

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I dont want to be rude, but there is not one single company anywhere in the world building this kind a car, so why do you want Australia to do it???

BMW 1 series sort of fits the small, rwd 4 and 6 cyl criteria - given it's small and rwd and is available in 4 and 6 cyl.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Danny

What is this mate? Mother Russia? Strike down and crush the evil imports? As I said, WE GET TAXED ENOUGH ON IMPORTS, and LUXURY CARS!!!

Ford aren't failing, the FALCON is. If Ford want a successful falcon, they then need to pull their finger out of their collective pooholes, and do something about it, not just keep peddling an inferior quality product (even compared to its stablemates) whose ONLY claim to fame is its straight line pull, because as other cars catch up in performance, Falcons Turbo/SCharged party tricks become (and have become) yesterdays news. Cant ride on the coat tails of the turbo six and Miami 8 for ever and change little else.

Heres an idea, instead of import tarriffs penalising our right to choose what vehicle suits us, WHY NOT have Govco support Aussie vehicles by abolishing the Lux Car taxing on them, or by reducing stamp duty on the sales of Aussie cars??

you make me laugh!!! You say no to higher taxes, but yes to lower taxes!!

P.S. By lowering the tax (stamp duty) on local cars, you infect have tax imports higher. So how is your idea any different from the original comment?? You have only changed the type of tax the government collects!!

[Polyal]

The Falcon is not failing at all, Ford is failing the Falcon.

Im still very hopeful the right and logical decision will be made and it will remain RWD with some other products in the Ford world.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Spammy

BMW 1 series sort of fits the small, rwd 4 and 6 cyl criteria - given it's small and rwd and is available in 4 and 6 cyl.

Actually, I was thinking of a Holden version of the Cadillac ATS...
1535 Kg with I-4 and available with V6 engine..

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

you make me laugh!!! You say no to higher taxes, but yes to lower taxes!!

P.S. By lowering the tax (stamp duty) on local cars, you infect have tax imports higher. So how is your idea any different from the original comment?? You have only changed the type of tax the government collects!!

I don't think that you are in any position to make interpretations of other peoples views Looked at the non-existant Beemer 1 series yet?

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by johnydep

I don't think that you are in any position to make interpretations of other peoples views Looked at the non-existant Beemer 1 series yet?

Yeah becuase a BWM 1 is like a foucs.. My mistake, NOT!!

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

So what, develop it in Australia and have it built in Thailand?

No I didn't suggest that. If we're talking about ways to protect our manufacturing, then sending it offshore isn't going to help. The T6 development model is an example of what can be done to share/amortise cost across different regions. Obviously there would have to be variations.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Yeah becuase a BWM 1 is like a foucs.. My mistake, NOT!!

Accountantant did you say?

I've tried to keep my comments constructive, with my views on what could help our automotive industry.

You, on the other hand, seem to find ways to miss understand people using your limited auto knowledge as a witty tool.

Lets have a look at what I said -

Originally Posted by johnydep

I'd like to see a mid sized rear wheel drive car. Focus/Cruze size, with the option of a 4cyl for economy and a 6 for performance. Size would mean a cheaper vehicle, compared to the Falcon/Commodore size. It would still have enough room for 4, or even 5 passengers.......

Now lets look at your reply -

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I dont want to be rude, but there is not one single company anywhere in the world building this kind a car, so why do you want Australia to do it??? And why would Ford do that, when they just release Focus? You want the same sized car, but RWD?? WTF for???

BMW are now the only car company to offer a small rear drive vehicle, Lexus had one but dropped it for FWD version. I know that Ford & Holden would never build one (see my original quote in full), however, the possibilities of having such a vehicle could be fantastic for exports. BMW sell it for $36,000. Ford or Holden could have one for sale at $26,000. The parts are available in their world inventory, we have the engineers, the marketing guys would have a field day; 50/50 weight distribution, 9m turning circle, load spread across 4 wheels.

As I said before, it's just a dream of mine.

[johnydep]

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/s...203-1qw33.html

Confidential figures reveal private buyers are flocking to small cars.

Australians who pay for a car with their own money are only interested in small cars, according to confidential sales figures obtained by Drive.

The sales results are more bad news for the local car industry, which predominantly builds large cars and has experienced a sales slump in the past decade.

The Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries, which releases the official tally monthly, only publishes overall sales figures. The car industry is given access to more detailed numbers that give a split between private, fleet and government sales.

And those figures, obtained exclusively by Drive, show that nine of the 10 best-selling vehicles to private buyers are small cars.

Holden's Commodore, the best-selling car for 15 years before being toppled by the Mazda3 last year, is the exception, coming in at seventh place due to the popularity of high-performance V8 models and the Sportwagon. V8s make up almost one in four Commodore and Commodore Ute sales, while the Sportwagon accounts for about one-third of the sedan/wagon split.

And, for the first time in its 34-year history, the Commodore was outsold last month by a car in its own stable: its smaller Cruze sibling.

No soft-roaders or four-wheel-drives - whose sales have more than doubled during the past decade - make the top-10 list of private sales, which suggests that big business and government are dragging the chain on adopting more fuel-efficient cars.

The mix of private and fleet customers is important to car makers because it has a direct impact on profitability; private sales have much bigger margins.

Private buyers also often opt for more expensive variants; while they are happy to downsize the vehicle, they are often prepared to spend the same amount as they would have on a larger car. High proportions of fleet sales can also have a negative impact on used-car values because supply doesn't always match demand.

The Mazda3 and Mazda2 have the highest percentage of sales to private buyers, at 87 per cent. That figure contrasts sharply with the struggling Ford Falcon, which attracts just three private buyers in every 10 sales. Figures released this week show the Falcon posted its worst-ever monthly sales for January, with fewer than 1000 cars - a further 20 per cent drop on the figure for last year.

The Mazda3 sold 36,026 cars to private buyers last year, while the Falcon managed just 5232. In contrast, Ford's tiny Fiesta found 9621 private buyers, representing eight out of 10 sales.

The story is the same at Holden, where the Cruze small car was almost twice as popular as the Commodore with private buyers last year: 19,889 sales to 11,782. The figure is expected to widen this year, as the Cruze line-up now includes a hatch variant.

Other popular cars with private buyers include the Toyota Corolla, which came in second to the Mazda, the Mitsubishi Lancer and Volkswagen Golf.

All three have a higher percentage of fleet buyers (about one-third).

Hyundai's i30 also makes the list but it is more popular with fleets. Corporate customers make up 73 per cent of buyers.

Traditionally, small cars have been less profitable than large cars but the slide in popularity of cars such as the Falcon, Commodore and Toyota's Aurion/Camry has led to deep discounting, which has eroded their advantage. The discounts have also driven down resale values, creating a vicious cycle that has the local manufacturers on their knees.

[jpd80]

Courtesy of Russell's graph, we can see that as large cars have fallen from around 25% to 7% those sales appear
to have been equally dispersed between light and small cars as well as small and Mid Sized SUVs ..oh and 4x4 Utes.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Accountantant did you say?

I've tried to keep my comments constructive, with my views on what could help our automotive industry.

You, on the other hand, seem to find ways to miss understand people using your limited auto knowledge as a witty tool.

Lets have a look at what I said -


Now lets look at your reply -


BMW are now the only car company to offer a small rear drive vehicle, Lexus had one but dropped it for FWD version. I know that Ford & Holden would never build one (see my original quote in full), however, the possibilities of having such a vehicle could be fantastic for exports. BMW sell it for $36,000. Ford or Holden could have one for sale at $26,000. The parts are available in their world inventory, we have the engineers, the marketing guys would have a field day; 50/50 weight distribution, 9m turning circle, load spread across 4 wheels.

As I said before, it's just a dream of mine.

Great, one company in the whole world is building this kind of car (that should tell you something, even if you don't know nothing about anything). Let’s get Ford Australia to build it. Heaven forbid we should build a car that might actually sell well here in Australia, let’s just focus on export “potential” because it is working really well for both Toyota & Holden at the moment!!!

To start with the USA is very far way, Europe even more so.. So why build here, when they have factories there already & don’t have to worry about freight & don’t have to take risks with exchange rate changes? Asia is close, but it's cheaper to build there, so why build here??

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Great, one company in the whole world is building this kind of car (that should tell you something, even if you don't know nothing about anything). Let’s get Ford Australia to build it. Heaven forbid we should build a car that might actually sell well here in Australia, let’s just focus on export “potential” because it is working really well for both Toyota & Holden at the moment!!!

To start with the USA is very far way, Europe even more so.. So why build here, when they have factories there already & don’t have to worry about freight & don’t have to take risks with exchange rate changes? Asia is close, but it's cheaper to build there, so why build here??

Far out, that chip is big.

Why don't you just admit that you had no idea that there was a company building a small rear drive vehicle.

Do you remember what this thread is about? Falcon sales down to their lowest levels!

If the Falcon and Commodore were top of the sales ladder, this thread wouldn't exist. However, that's not the case. As the stats show, new large cars are not selling, especially to private buyers.

Used car sales do not factor in for the manufacturers, so the second hand market is out.

Get off your high horse, calm down and start reading the facts before going off on a rant.

As for my mentioning a small rear wheel drive vehicle; I said that it would never happen it Australia, but there is nothing wrong with mentioning my opinion. You then gave your opinion without checking the facts.

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I dont want to be rude, but there is not one single company anywhere in the world building this kind a car,

And you're doing it again with "the USA is very far way, Europe even more so.. So why build here, when they have factories there already & don’t have to worry about freight & don’t have to take risks with exchange rate changes? Asia is close, but it's cheaper to build there, so why build here??"

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by johnydep

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/s...203-1qw33.html

I still cannot fathom Ford not putting a V8 in the mainstream sedan and ute range when it is so popular with profitable private buyers. 1 in 4 Commodore sales!

Best V8 ever and they dont offer it in variants comparable to Commodore e.g. XR8 XR8 ute and G8E.

Bringing out the best LPG system ever but dropping the wagon which was ideal for EcoLPI, coupled with the massive shift away from sedans.

Profitable prviate buyers being flocking to small cars for years and is now the biggest segment so they reverse decision to build local Focus and potentially Kuga.


three strikes....

[anto]

Originally Posted by Danny

What is this mate? Mother Russia? Strike down and crush the evil imports? As I said, WE GET TAXED ENOUGH ON IMPORTS, and LUXURY CARS!!!

Ford aren't failing, the FALCON is. If Ford want a successful falcon, they then need to pull their finger out of their collective pooholes, and do something about it, not just keep peddling an inferior quality product (even compared to its stablemates) whose ONLY claim to fame is its straight line pull, because as other cars catch up in performance, Falcons Turbo/SCharged party tricks become (and have become) yesterdays news. Cant ride on the coat tails of the turbo six and Miami 8 for ever and change little else.

Heres an idea, instead of import tarriffs penalising our right to choose what vehicle suits us, WHY NOT have Govco support Aussie vehicles by abolishing the Lux Car taxing on them, or by reducing stamp duty on the sales of Aussie cars??

Im sorry...inferior product is it ? please elaborate as Id love to know how that is. I would say its the best car available in its price range, certainly better than its main opposition....right ?

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Far out, that chip is big.

Why don't you just admit that you had no idea that there was a company building a small rear drive vehicle.

Do you remember what this thread is about? Falcon sales down to their lowest levels!

If the Falcon and Commodore were top of the sales ladder, this thread wouldn't exist. However, that's not the case. As the stats show, new large cars are not selling, especially to private buyers.

Used car sales do not factor in for the manufacturers, so the second hand market is out.

Get off your high horse, calm down and start reading the facts before going off on a rant.

As for my mentioning a small rear wheel drive vehicle; I said that it would never happen it Australia, but there is nothing wrong with mentioning my opinion. You then gave your opinion without checking the facts.



And you're doing it again with "the USA is very far way, Europe even more so.. So why build here, when they have factories there already & don’t have to worry about freight & don’t have to take risks with exchange rate changes? Asia is close, but it's cheaper to build there, so why build here??"

What are you talking about. Is it hard for you to get a few FACTS in the one post? You say my chip is big, take a look in the mirror!!

I have no problems in admitting a company builds a small RWD car, facts are facts. However, you want a Focus/Curze type of RWD car, I don't consider a BMW 1 to be the same type of car as Focus/ Curze.. But even if it was, that does not mean it is right for Ford or any company to build in Australia!!


P.S... there is nothing but FACT & questions for you in this comment "the USA is very far way, Europe even more so.. So why build here, when they have factories there already & don’t have to worry about freight & don’t have to take risks with exchange rate changes? Asia is close, but it's cheaper to build there, so why build here??""

[Polyal]

Johndep...you didnt actualy respond to the crux of the post by Joe..

And you're doing it again with "the USA is very far way, Europe even more so.. So why build here, when they have factories there already & don’t have to worry about freight & don’t have to take risks with exchange rate changes? Asia is close, but it's cheaper to build there, so why build here??"

Thats a pretty big reason why exports from us will not work...unless our dollar gets back to 70 US which wont happen anytime soon

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I still cannot fathom Ford not putting a V8 in the mainstream sedan and ute range when it is so popular with profitable private buyers. 1 in 4 Commodore sales!

Best V8 ever and they dont offer it in variants comparable to Commodore e.g. XR8 XR8 ute and G8E.

Bringing out the best LPG system ever but dropping the wagon which was ideal for EcoLPI, coupled with the massive shift away from sedans.

Profitable private buyers being flocking to small cars for years and is now the biggest segment so they reverse decision to build local Focus and potentially Kuga.


three strikes....

Agreed.

I'd like to see the info on how the decisions were made.

Ford knew that Holden were working on plans to get the rights to build the Cruze in Australia, Ford Oz started the bidding on the rights to build the Focus here; what happened.

The Territory is another strike; in 2004 Ford had the right set up in the Terri, they were selling them faster than they could build them. Sales started in South Africa, Thailand and I think a couple of other countries. Sadly, Ford did not push the boundaries, and relied on the very good Aussie sales only.

With our history of building great cars, I think Ford and Holden can still get themselves out of the doldrums.

What does the market want? Local and OS.
Can they build two or three different models? Holden - the Commy and the Cruze. Ford - the Falcon and the Terri, and maybe a smaller model.

If they can assure us that they'll be here for the long haul producing vehicles, then I'm all for the Government offering assistance. If they can't, then they can't have any money from the tax payers.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Johndep...you didnt actualy respond to the crux of the post by Joe..

And you're doing it again with "the USA is very far way, Europe even more so.. So why build here, when they have factories there already & don’t have to worry about freight & don’t have to take risks with exchange rate changes? Asia is close, but it's cheaper to build there, so why build here??"

Thats a pretty big reason why exports from us will not work...unless our dollar gets back to 70 US which wont happen anytime soon

That is crux no.6 of 4 post no. 4

"the USA is very far way, Europe even more so.." Freight is a small cost, when the numbers being freighted is high enough. That's why 'Economies Of Scale' is so important -

The increase in efficiency of production as the number of goods being produced increases. Typically, a company that achieves economies of scale lowers the average cost per unit through increased production since fixed costs are shared over an increased number of goods.

It's also why, in 1998, we had the Australian waterfront dispute.

Manufacturers, business, transport and Governments have to be on the same page. Nothing new there, it's been done before, many times, in every part of the world.

Using the 'distance' factor may have worked 40, 50, 60 years ago it will not work today, especially if we are set up as a nation to export. And we are, we have been exporting goods from the day we became an established English Colony.

If our product is in demand, it will sell.

Can Ford and Holden produce a vehicle that people will want? Can we deliver it on time and at a reasonable cost?

Only the management of the companies and the Government can answer those questions.

One thing I know for certain; only entrepreneurs and people with vision will help a country prosper and succeed.

PS. Other countries have suffered from a high currency, notably Japan and Germany. There are ways around it, including "economy of scale".

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/...#ixzz1leJu9BmA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Au...rfront_dispute

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/attard.australia

[mik]

i get sick of people telling us we should have more small cars, we are bloody drowning in them, they are coming in by bulk ship load
some of us like the secure feeling of having some space between our shoulder and the door in our big car
some of us like the secure feeling of knowing there`s more than 2 inches between this side of the door and the other in our big car Aussie car
some of us like the feeling of solidarity of a long wheel base heavier car you just don`t get with a small/er car
some of us like to be able to put the family in the car + luggage with boat or van in tow and do an interstater in an effortless fashion
some of us like the fact we don`t need a bulk suv to do these things
some of us like the fact we can order our big Aussie car with BBQ gas and have running costs cheaper than many imports,? any imports do this?
the only issue i see with big Aussie cars is the initial cost......no fault of the car maker,the way i see it, it`s is the fault of the those that make the policy`s that allow the cost of business and living to sky rocket, not to mention the flood of cheap imports.