Toyota Aurion - My Thoughts

[Wally]

Yes my mistake you actually said

i dont know anyone more anti holden than me, even though my work ute is a rodeo (VERY cheap at the time)

I can think of a few Ford boys I would know, who would tear you to pieces for treason, my brother being one of them (he's so dopey he wouldn't drive nor passenger my latest VE incase it betrayed the faith. Doesn't stop him telling everyone who'll listen how badly it handles though. This from a guy who runs a huge Govt empire LOL)

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by Wally

Yes my mistake you actually said



I can think of a few Ford boys I would know, who would tear you to pieces for treason, my brother being one of them (he's so dopey he wouldn't drive nor passenger my latest VE incase it betrayed the faith. Doesn't stop him telling everyone who'll listen how badly it handles though. This from a guy who runs a huge Govt empire LOL)

i dont even own a ford now :(

i own a 1999 rodeo ute and an STI, im over driving a huge car, even though i miss the sheer grunt

string me up boys!

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by kezzer

:
EDIT: anyway, it's off topic now, i'm out,
Ciao

Thank God.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

if it was about that, and the thread related to the size in real terms... this thread would only have only been one post in length ;)

LOL , but a really long post I suspect.

[UNR8D]

Anyway, ill leave it there, before I get banned lol, I dont mind the aurion, I just would never buy one. Sorry if I wasn't clear in some of my posts.

EDIT: anyway, it's off topic now, i'm out, 4.0l > 3.6l > 3.5l, my opinion, and the opinion of most people I would think. If that makes me a holden fanboy then so be it. But last time I checked Ford produced the 4.0l.

heard it all before kezza

LOL , but a really long post I suspect.

howd you know? :

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Wally

What a strange thread. One member who owns a new model Falcon and never owned a Holden, being teased as a Holden fanboy and another member who owns a Holden claiming to be an avid Ford fanboy. There has to be a book in there somewhere.

I'm sure this is providing perplexing amusement to the Toyota boys watching on another forum. All I need is someone to translate what the hell this thread is about.... longest appendage I suspect.

Good point wally.

As for the atcual debate RE engines this is a waste of time because the engines are installled in cars of differening drivetrain configurations, weights, aero etc. Kezzer makes the valid point (at least in this case) that the much heavier VE/FG require engines of noticeable different performance capacities (and fuel burn etc). THis if of course if offset by better handling (suspension accounts for most of the additional weight as does RWD).

However, as raw engines i highly doubt (based on what i have read/experienced) you could claim the 3.5 aurion V6 to be any worse than the 3.6 VE motor. The claims about detuning are a bit misleading because holden has gone that way because of not only marketing but torque curve (the US version has a more torque but it is much higher up) and fuel burn. DI versions of the toyota 3.5 (lexus etc.) more than match the cadilac spec 3.6 DI (or damn near it...).

Moreover, the 3.5V6 revs more cleany then any alloytec has and is quieter than both FG/VE.

Before i have to hand in my decoder ring for saying a Toyota product is better than a Ford, i would point that the engine is but one part of the entire package. While smooth and quick the toyota gearbox is not as good as the ZF 6sp in the falcon and given it much lower torque (esp low down) the Aurion is a more 'busy' drive than the FG (even with 5sp auto). And of course as noted earlier its not much point having all that power if you can't use it due to being undertyred, underdamped, suffering from torque steer and a nanny ESP.

The funny thing is that alot of the toyota fans i speak to that defend the aurion by claiming that average joe 'does not worry about handling' also rave on about how fast the car is in a straight line (yeah i get lots of grannies go to the drags....). Ford/Holden and others have taken stick for having cars with too much grunt and not enough grip/brakes (up to and including some FG models). Apparently the base AT-X is exempt.... You can't have it both ways.

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Good point wally.

As for the atcual debate RE engines this is a waste of time because the engines are installled in cars of differening drivetrain configurations, weights, aero etc. Kezzer makes the valid point (at least in this case) that the much heavier VE/FG require engines of noticeable different performance capacities (and fuel burn etc). THis if of course if offset by better handling (suspension accounts for most of the additional weight as does RWD).

However, as raw engines i highly doubt (based on what i have read/experienced) you could claim the 3.5 aurion V6 to be any worse than the 3.6 VE motor. The claims about detuning are a bit misleading because holden has gone that way because of not only marketing but torque curve (the US version has a more torque but it is much higher up) and fuel burn. DI versions of the toyota 3.5 (lexus etc.) more than match the cadilac spec 3.6 DI (or damn near it...).

Moreover, the 3.5V6 revs more cleany then any alloytec has and is quieter than both FG/VE.

Before i have to hand in my decoder ring for saying a Toyota product is better than a Ford, i would point that the engine is but one part of the entire package. While smooth and quick the toyota gearbox is not as good as the ZF 6sp in the falcon and given it much lower torque (esp low down) the Aurion is a more 'busy' drive than the FG (even with 5sp auto). And of course as noted earlier its not much point having all that power if you can't use it due to being undertyred, underdamped, suffering from torque steer and a nanny ESP.

The funny thing is that alot of the toyota fans i speak to that defend the aurion by claiming that average joe 'does not worry about handling' also rave on about how fast the car is in a straight line (yeah i get lots of grannies go to the drags....). Ford/Holden and others have taken stick for having cars with too much grunt and not enough grip/brakes (up to and including some FG models). Apparently the base AT-X is exempt.... You can't have it both ways.

Well swordsman you just made sense of the thread.

[duaned]

The Aurion is faster than the Holden/Ford camps in a straight line test no question, but I would be interested to see if the straight line speed advantage still exists with a family of 4 in the cabin of all three vehicles?

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by duaned

.... but I would be interested to see if the straight line speed advantage still exists with a family of 4 in the cabin of all three vehicles?

Why would you want to race/drag anyone with your family in the car !

[mick.wheelz]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Good point wally.

The funny thing is that alot of the toyota fans i speak to that defend the aurion by claiming that average joe 'does not worry about handling' also rave on about how fast the car is in a straight line (yeah i get lots of grannies go to the drags....). Ford/Holden and others have taken stick for having cars with too much grunt and not enough grip/brakes (up to and including some FG models). Apparently the base AT-X is exempt.... You can't have it both ways.

The ATX or XT or Omega are not designed to be race cars, yeah sure they go pretty quickly in a straight line (due to the massive amounts of power Australian family cars have these days) but none of them *really* handle that well (albeit some are better than others)... the ATX is definitely not exempt from this.

The 'sport' models (SX6/ZR6 or XR6 or SV6) would be the fair comparison, the SX6/ZR6 Aurions do have differing suspension from the ATX, and do handle better.

I have seen people do some pretty amazing things round very bendy roads in Aurions... Not that I am doubting the ability of the XR6 or SV6 to do the same thing... all I am saying is, given the right driver an Aurion can do pretty amazing things.

One has to remember that driving a FWD car fast and driving a RWD fast are rather different...

[just_pazz]

Originally Posted by mick.wheelz

One has to remember that driving a FWD car fast and driving a RWD fast are rather different...

I'll be the first to admit I don't really know how to drive a FWD car fast..... my experience with them is very limited and I have had no desire to learn how.

I guess like most on here I was bought up with the attitude that anything not RWD is not a "mans" car, passed down from my father. I reckon if i had have come home with a FWD as my first car the old man woulda clipped me over the ear and called me a poof.

I'm a bit older now so obviously I know there are benefits and reasons to owning and driving a FWD vehicle, but unfortunately the attitude still lingers with me. The Aurions horrid styling doesn't help either, so I don't think I'd ever drive or desire to buy one.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Before i have to hand in my decoder ring for saying a Toyota product is better than a Ford, i would point that the engine is but one part of the entire package. While smooth and quick the toyota gearbox is not as good as the ZF 6sp in the falcon and given it much lower torque (esp low down) the Aurion is a more 'busy' drive than the FG (even with 5sp auto). And of course as noted earlier its not much point having all that power if you can't use it due to being undertyred, underdamped, suffering from torque steer and a nanny ESP.

The funny thing is that alot of the toyota fans i speak to that defend the aurion by claiming that average joe 'does not worry about handling' also rave on about how fast the car is in a straight line (yeah i get lots of grannies go to the drags....). Ford/Holden and others have taken stick for having cars with too much grunt and not enough grip/brakes (up to and including some FG models). Apparently the base AT-X is exempt.... You can't have it both ways.

On a flat quarter mile strip really means nothing for me. I'd rather see how well they perform up a steep hill, then you can see how good an engine is. At the end of the day these cars a N/A 6 family/rep cars and not performance cars.

[FalconXR6]

Originally Posted by Hidden Taco

Hello People,

This post has gotten some attention over at TOCAU and I thought I would join up here and say that I found the OP's review quite accurate and I also found the replied posts quite mature and deliberate, which is refreshing.

I also wanted to say that the Aurion is quite a comfortable everyday ride in its performance ability, handling and gadgets. I don't think Toyota directly targeted the XR and SV (Sportier models) as it's prime competition but there is no doubt it is a contender. For an NA 6 it has quite the kick on the straight line and seems to do it fairly effortlessly while bouncing off redline all day long.

FWD will always be the downfall and deal breaker for some people, and yes it does and will under steer if your tires arn't grippy or wide enough and yes it will axle trump if your tires are grippy or wide (so your doomed if you do and your doomed if you don't LOL) but we are talking about a family car not a track bred car.

My opinion is that the white goods reputation of Toyota is starting to fade. Unfortunately that fading causes them to focus on bling a little more and quality a little less. But my opinion is that Toyota can afford to lower a little bit of quality. I just wish they would sack their interior designers.

Thanks to the people here that were honest and deliberate with their posting and creating a good read and to the people who are still in denial that a Toyota "Camry" can have a quicker 0-100 than its direct rivals I say stop kidding your self and lets see what the next generation of Aussie 6s brings us to play with.

Happy driving

HT

Welcome to the forums !

Would be nice to get a few more Toyota / Aurion guys on board to provide better detail around their products as well as a more balanced discussion.

[mick.wheelz]

Originally Posted by FalconXR6

Welcome to the forums !

Would be nice to get a few more Toyota / Aurion guys on board to provide better detail around their products as well as a more balanced discussion.

I am also from tocau (althought ive been an aff member for a very long time, since the begining infact... i went to the darkside)

I still like fords, and if I wanted an australian car I would buy a falcon in a second... but after having a couple of japanese cars it has converted me

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by FalconXR6

Welcome to the forums !

Would be nice to get a few more Toyota / Aurion guys on board to provide better detail around their products as well as a more balanced discussion.

Yes....we already have enough holden apologists it seems.... And of course plenty of Ford faithful too.....

Originally Posted by mick.wheelz

The ATX or XT or Omega are not designed to be race cars, yeah sure they go pretty quickly in a straight line (due to the massive amounts of power Australian family cars have these days) but none of them *really* handle that well (albeit some are better than others)... the ATX is definitely not exempt from this.

The 'sport' models (SX6/ZR6 or XR6 or SV6) would be the fair comparison, the SX6/ZR6 Aurions do have differing suspension from the ATX, and do handle better.

I have seen people do some pretty amazing things round very bendy roads in Aurions... Not that I am doubting the ability of the XR6 or SV6 to do the same thing... all I am saying is, given the right driver an Aurion can do pretty amazing things.

One has to remember that driving a FWD car fast and driving a RWD fast are rather different...

Yes....it is very different. My sister recenltly bought a LR Focus zetec and i took for a few spins (not literally!!) and it is quite an interesting experience. Jumping out of my EF XR (auto) into her focus (manual) calls for a fair bit of adjustment if you want to drive both smoothly and cleanly. THis is obvious even at low speeds let alone when you having a bit of fun. The falcon is heavy, has RWD, lots of torque and is very 'lazy' on mid corner, but has less understeer intially. On exit it is a bit of handful if you push it. The Focus has more mid corner understeer and requires a bit of playful braking to get lift off going to then go out of the corner at up to virtually full throttle. So the FWD is slow in, flat out, the other fast in (with a bit of trail brake) and progressive on the gas on the exit. Sure the EF is ultimately quicker (more power) but the FWD is quite good in the slower stuff....

So why would i think about this sort of stuff when driving the cars?? Because at the end of the day i like to drive cars...that is what they are for. Moving you around....if you don't like to drive or don't care get the bus. I know not all cars can be expected to handle like a Ferrari 430 but i'm getting sick in this modern age (when everyone is sharing supposedly world class platforms and getting interior parts cheaper then ever) of manufacturers using the excuse of 'oh its not important that this car handle well...its not necessary for this segment'. Well you should have the decency to put in some effort (yes i'm talking about you toyota!!!) whether it be design or more importantly tuning. IN a way i suppose its the customer's fault that they don't (generally) prioritise such things. It does happen occasionallly...the recent Prius brake recall was because of dodgy pedal feel basically. The engineer in charge effectively admited that Toyota had 'underestimated the customer's requirements' RE brake feel when transitioning from regenerative to hydraulic braking. Yeah sometimes people notice when manufacturers cut corners....

Bear mind also that the 'oh its a heavy FWD sedan' argument does not hold water. Cars like mazda 6/mondeo are equal in weight and handle very very well (even base models) and something like a Mondeo XR5turbo has almost as much torque and has very little torque steer. I drove a Mitsu 380 once and despite having a range of other deficincies and clearly lacking in investment it was a much much better drivers car than the aurion. Steering, brakes (which were great), power delivery, gearbox tuning it was all so much more coherant and it was a very chuckable car. If poor old Mitsu could do it on a shoestring budget toyota can....just have to make $10-20 less profit per car. Too bad they couldn't be bothered...... This is why i am unlikely to buy a toyo product any time soon. Stuff the recalls, build a car that is mildly satisfying to drive and i will consider it....they are labelled 'automotive white goods' for a reason....

[mick.wheelz]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

...they are labelled 'automotive white goods' for a reason....

I do agree with you here...hell, even the chairman of toyota agrees with you!

We also need to offer vehicles that bring joy to the driving experience and move people—emotionally. We also need to offer technology that anticipates peoples’ needs.

Toyota have created vehicles like this in the past (celica, supra anyone?) and i believe with the upcoming FT86, etc they will do in the future.

It is just unfortunate that they have taken such a long tine to do this...

back on the topic of the aurion, i think you find if you drove an SX6 or a ZR6 you would find the overall dynamic of the vehicle is somewhat more sporty than that of the ATX.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by mick.wheelz

back on the topic of the aurion, i think you find if you drove an SX6 or a ZR6 you would find the overall dynamic of the vehicle is somewhat more sporty than that of the ATX.

I can see your point here.

We test drove a ZR6 and I have to say that I can't really see where all this criticism of the lack of turn in and over the top understeer comes from. To be completely honest my impression was the understeer was not much worse than our BA GT that we owned at the time, but the Aurion does not profess to be a performance car, the GT does.

In terms of equipment and cost, I would still include it on our list for the next car that we buy. Our hang up is although it is competent in just about every way, it is just not excellent in any.

The outside styling on the ZR6 looks good but is let down by what appear to be very small wheels and wheel arches that are out of proportion to the panels.

The interior is comfortable and well laid out but it lacks any style. It is in my mind pretty clinical in presentation and although not a displeasing place to be, it is quite mundane.

The problem for this segment of the market is that there are so many cars that offer what we are after, many offer so much more. Cars such as the VW Passat come to mind, sure it is a bit more expensive and offers less gadgets, but the ride is better and handling is a whole other class. The DSG in the VW is the best trans I have experienced and the handling is sensational for a FWD. During the test drive I pretty much forgot which wheels were driving it. The Mondeo XR5 gets an honourable mention as well for good performance, good equipment and comfort

I am also concerned about the reliability and servicing. Toyota have always had the strength of their reliability and service but recently that seems to be a thing of the past. When you have that reputation you should protect it with all your life, because it is easy to lose and hard to get back.

We have virtually discounted any Ford (might think about Mondeo XR5, definitely no aussie Ford), also Holden is out and all this is based on reliability. After 3 B series cars with a list of warranty work as long as my arm, we are over it. We are also sick to death of ford service departments, we are now beaten to a point that I doubt we can do it again, no matter how much we like the FG.

I am lucky that we are not buying straight away now so we have time to revisit the Aurion and others before we make our choice.

[duaned]

Originally Posted by Chopped

Why would you want to race/drag anyone with your family in the car !

There is always someone stupid enough on these forums not to interpret a post correctly. I DID NOT suggest or collate anything in relation to having a drag race with family in the car. I'll leave that up to you to consider. My point being was in relation to torque outputs of all three cars, and how performance between them changes with additional weight etc. Excercises are overtaking performance between the vehicles. Now are you having any trouble understanding?

[Stattic]

wow this thread is a mess...
its also very embarassing for you kezzer, youre acting like a child

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by Stattic

wow this thread is a mess...
its also very embarassing for you kezzer, youre acting like a child

Why? because I'm not one eye'd? Not apart of the anti-holden bandwagon?

Commodore
Power 210kW @ 6400RPM
Torque 350Nm @ 2900RPM

Aurion
Power 200kW @ 6200RPM
Torque 336Nm @ 4700RPM

Facts speak for themselves, more torque earlier in the rev range, more power, the Aurion wieghs 200kg less and FWD, and only gets .2l better fuel economy doesn't mean its a more economical engine. Apart from being quitier and 'revs smoother' I don't see any other benefits from it. The 3.6 motor is an older motor too, going back to the VZ's! The 3.5l DI matches the cheaper 3.6l DI GM spec motor. Flame me all you want, I've made my points as to why I think the 3.6l engine is better then the 3.5l, and can back them up.

If the 3.5l DI version was in the aurion, I would probably change my mind, but it's not. And the 4.0l would still beat both of them anyway.

[Wally]

Moth + Flame. Slow down Kesser, they are winding you up and we can't have you getting another red smilie.

That 10kW advantage would probably disappear once drivetrain losses are allocated.

[mick.wheelz]

do you have a dyno graph of each engine to prove your point?

are you factoring in drive train losses for each vehicle (a RWD having slightly higher loss)

not to mention the fact that the 2GR-FE on 98 oct fuel actually produces 204Kw... and is not direct injection, and is smaller in displacement.

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by mick.wheelz

are you factoring in drive train losses for each vehicle (a RWD having slightly higher loss)

not to mention the fact that the 2GR-FE on 98 oct fuel actually produces 204Kw... and is not direct injection, and is smaller in displacement.

Hey I said engines, not drivetrain. The SIDI on 98 would produce higher kw also, whats your point? I know the 3.5l is not DI and has smaller displacement, whats your point?

Originally Posted by Wally

Moth + Flame. Slow down Kesser, they are winding you up and we can't have you getting another red smilie.

haha, oh well, it's only a forum at the end of the day, where everyone can express their opinions.

[mick.wheelz]

Originally Posted by kezzer

Hey I said engines, not drivetrain. The SIDI on 98 would produce higher kw also, whats your point? I know the 3.5l is not DI and has smaller displacement, whats your point?

my point is that you are comparing two different engines.

If you wish to make a fair comparison, compare the SIDI 3.6 to the 2GR-FSE

and besides, an car engine on its own is not much use is it?

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by kezzer

Hey I said engines, not drivetrain. The SIDI on 98 would produce higher kw also, whats your point? I know the 3.5l is not DI and has smaller displacement, whats your point?



haha, oh well, it's only a forum at the end of the day, where everyone can express their opinions.

kezzer you muppit, figures quoted for the SIDI are on 95-98 octane, they cant run 91... your point is once again... mute :

[kezzer]

3.6l
Fuel Consumption Combined (ADR 81/01) 10.1L/100km

"Recommended petrol octane rating: 91 RON ULP. Note that using 95 RON (PULP) or higher may result in improved engine performance and efficiency " They can run on 91...

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by mick.wheelz

my point is that you are comparing two different engines.

If you wish to make a fair comparison, compare the SIDI 3.6 to the 2GR-FSE

and besides, an car engine on its own is not much use is it?

Why? the aurion doesn't have that engine, the lexus does, and at a much higher price too. The GM 3.6l and the lexus 3.5l both DI are basically the same as Ive already said.

Yeah I agree, UNR8D started comparing the two engines. I'm just proving him wrong.

[mick.wheelz]

I know i shouldn't feed the troll but oh well.

the 3.6 makes 10kW @ the flywheel more than the 2GR... but the 3.6 has both direct injection and 100cc more displacement,

yet you are trying to argue that the 3.6 is a better engine... the difference in power between the two motors is minimal... so clearly holden's direct injection system is ratshit if it can only make 10kw more than a motor that is smaller, and uses a conventional injection system.

Its been said earlier in the thread that the DI version of the 2GR makes 28kw more than the non DI.... that in itself proves how poor holden's implementation of DI is.

[UNR8D]

Kezz i think you will find the 210 is the figure they claim with using the higher octane ;).

and I still stand by what I said about the engines... so far I've proven you wrong, and all you have is emotion

it IS better on fuel consumption than the 3.6, and achieves that without the use of DI, smoother, more refined engine to boot and quieter...

Ive provided you with facts and you seem to quote a wheels magazine... do you know how stupid that sounds?

[kezzer]

It's a downtuned motor mick, the GM version is exactly the same as the lexus motor, can you read??

You havent proven me wrong on anything, the 3.6l is the better engine, your blind.