Why are Toyotas so reliable (and boring).

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by smoo

Yet Holden/GM still dumped $1 billion into the VE, so maybe it wasn't that obvious.
When the VT and AU were launched, did anyone predict the demise of the large sedan (or sedans in general) would come, or at least be realised within ten years?
Did anyone foresee the rise of the dual cab ute, SUV/crossover and a hugely diverse market offering buyers significantly more choice than the 1990s...

The whole dual cab fiasco was also due to the federal government incentivizing Thailand Specials though huge tax incentives, if that wasn't the case I don't think we'd see the same scenario occur without government intervention (against our own manufacturing industry)

[smoo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

No but obviously signs that large car sales were already dying because of more choices.

VE was a special case because Zeta was the second start on a global RWD platform
that was supposed to have covered more (US) vehicles than it eventually did.
A fair portion of that billion dollar funding was new machinery to build the VE.

Yeah, when GM was developing their winner nearly every other brand was investing in diversifying their line up (BMW 1 series X1 X3 X6, Audi Q series Mazda CX etc).

Not knowing what we know now, I'm unsure the writing was on the wall in the 1990s. What were the early signs, Honda CRV and HRV, Toyota RAV4, LR Freelander, maybe Mercedes ML and A Class. Apart from them every thing was the same old of medium & large sedans/wagons, hatchbacks and agricultural Utes with vinyl floors, optional air con and wheezing engine (although the 79 series carries this long dropped norm into the second decade of the 21st century).
Who'd have thought in 1995 half of BMW, MB and Audis line up would consist of SUVs. Or that Jaguar, Bentley, Maserati, Lamborghini and Porsche will be selling hideous SUVs 20 years down the track

Looking at Commodore sales they really dropped off around 2003-2004. I'm guessing Holden was optimistic the VE was going to boost them back to what they were in the VT VX days.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The whole dual cab fiasco was also due to the federal government incentivizing Thailand Specials though huge tax incentives, if that wasn't the case I don't think we'd see the same scenario occur without government intervention (against our own manufacturing industry)

Yeah, although I know of many people who've purchased these things as private vehicles with no tax incentive. A bit of sheep mentality or keeping up with the Joneses, making excuses to justify their purchase instead of buying one out of necessity.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Oh for Pete’s sake can’t you see that growing up in a family with Toyotas and their reliability seen first hand rubs off on those kids and their kids. That’s exactly what happened and it is similar to how Ford and Holden were seen as reliable in the 60s and equally why so many turned their backs on Holden and Ford when offered a choice.

No, not the same thing at all.
Nobody ever bought a Holden or Ford because they were considered "reliable"
Nor has anybody, ever, (outside Japan) ever bought a Toyota "cos Dad drove Toyotas"

Originally Posted by jpd80

In 1972, Toyota and Nissan applied for local manufacturing licences, that helped the situation but als Whitlam government first proposed reducing the 57% tariff on imported vehicles, so then all the Escorts, Cortinas and Geminis being produced then had competition that progressively had better pricing, stifling the business plan of locally manufactures smaller vehicles, the first to dies off…

Once the imports achieved their goal of consigning local manufacturing to history, we see prices slowly increasing up to the point that compact cars and SUVS have prices approaching or even exceeding the starting prices of Falcons and Commodores….not that many remember that a few short years after the demise of local manufacturing…

In 1972 Japanese cars were still crap
At that point we were probably still building a bunch of European cars here.

Whitlams ham-fisted whack at Tariffs was simply designed to lower costs and thereby the inflation rate.
Auto tariffs remained high right through the 70's 80's and 90's. Combined with local-content averages, and later export credits. That's when Toyota built their stranglehold.
Keep in mind that tariffs on Commercial Vehicles were unwound much faster, allowing Japanese Light Commercials and 4wds to make massive inroads

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The whole dual cab fiasco was also due to the federal government incentivizing Thailand Specials though huge tax incentives, if that wasn't the case I don't think we'd see the same scenario occur without government intervention (against our own manufacturing industry)

Commercial Vehicles had much lower tariffs going way back.
What happened is that they began to get less heinous.
With less money to spare, and "Mum" now getting equality in the Family Car stakes, it become less practical for "Dad" to have his Car and his "work ute".
A lot of it was driven by the ATO's unwillingness to properly enforce the FBT laws, and the governments unwillingness to close the disparity.
Lastly, many families started buying 4wd dual-cabs as affordable 4wd options.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Commercial Vehicles had much lower tariffs going way back.
What happened is that they began to get less heinous.
With less money to spare, and "Mum" now getting equality in the Family Car stakes, it become less practical for "Dad" to have his Car and his "work ute".
A lot of it was driven by the ATO's unwillingness to properly enforce the FBT laws, and the governments unwillingness to close the disparity.
Lastly, many families started buying 4wd dual-cabs as affordable 4wd options.

It wasn't just commercial vehicles either. Early Subarus (including Leonie sedans) got in as being 'commercial vehicles' by virtue of the fact that they were 4WD.

Dr Terry

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

In 1972 Japanese cars were still crap
At that point we were probably still building a bunch of European cars here.

What car in 1972 would you describe as reliable?

I'm a big fan and former owner of a Mk I escort. but don't tell me its more reliable than a 72 rolla or EB1 civic

[coo]

What car in 1972 would you describe as reliable?

72 - end of the Datsun 1600, and the start of the 180B

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

No, not the same thing at all.
Nobody ever bought a Holden or Ford because they were considered "reliable"

Ummm, yes they did, there were tons of Ford and Holden families and yeah, both tribes considered their vehicles more reliable than imports.

Nor has anybody, ever, (outside Japan) ever bought a Toyota "cos Dad drove Toyotas"

Our market was a reflection of what happened in the US, families turned their backs of Ford and GM, discovered the reliability of Corolla’s, coronas, Mazda 626, Gallants, Sigmas…the list goes on and on. The proof is that Holden/Ford small and medium car sales were decimated in the 70s and 80s.

In 1972 Japanese cars were still crap
At that point we were probably still building a bunch of European cars here.

That was just the start, ten years later the reputation had grown thanks to embracing quality. And yeah, Homebush was building
Cortina’s and Escorts that basically couldn’t compete especially once Gallant and Sigma joined the fray, only chance was Mazda
based Laser and Telstar..but then, Ford Europe got the shyts and wanted its sales back…

Whitlams ham-fisted whack at Tariffs was simply designed to lower costs and thereby the inflation rate.
Auto tariffs remained high right through the 70's 80's and 90's. Combined with local-content averages, and later export credits. That's when Toyota built their stranglehold.
Keep in mind that tariffs on Commercial Vehicles were unwound much faster, allowing Japanese Light Commercials and 4wds to make massive inroads

Thank you for making my point, toyota, Nissan and Mitsubishi began local production to avoid tariffs
and then pressed for their reduction with successive governments beginning with commercial vehicles.
When governments began looking at the car industry in the 1980s with the button plan, Ford and Holden
still wen backward and imports with lower cost bases eventually became more affordable, it was curtains for
Holden and Ford’s commercial sales as well as the slow decline of government fleet sales.

Look there’s no denying that Holden and Ford had a great run but you have to admit that once Aussie buyers
had a choice of affordable alternatives with low or no tariffs and import quotas, they continued to move
away form Holden and Ford, regardless of the vehicles offered…

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by coo

72 - end of the Datsun 1600, and the start of the 180B

Winner winner…..
Datsun 180B, Datsun 120Y
Mitsubishi Gallant, Mitsubishi Sigma
Toyota Corolla, Corona, Celica

Not just Australia, cars like these really chopped into US sales and virtually ended the British Auto Industry..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Commercial Vehicles had much lower tariffs going way back.
What happened is that they began to get less heinous.
With less money to spare, and "Mum" now getting equality in the Family Car stakes, it become less practical for "Dad" to have his Car and his "work ute".
A lot of it was driven by the ATO's unwillingness to properly enforce the FBT laws, and the governments unwillingness to close the disparity.
Lastly, many families started buying 4wd dual-cabs as affordable 4wd options.

All of which added up to a huge win for Toyota and also Ford thanks to Ranger’s popularity and high prices.
Inaction on FBT is simply because governments know that enforcing it would be election suicide.

[mick taylor]

Were Holden's more reliable than Fords or Valiant ? from the 60's 70's 80's then we could talk about the 90's on being a big of a different ball game for many reasons, one our Holden's and Fords become Japans cars.

So 1970 Jap cars ? vs Aussie cars, well if something went wrong the cost were higher for Jap. Jap windscreens stung you I believe and the main problem was that the majority of Aussies payed little attention to servicing and with an alloy head this became big trouble down the track.

One could say in one era that say Holden 202 problems were big ? but Toyota Crown were not ? but how many Crowns were made here f all ! but if they made as many as many as Holden did and had as many yobbos drive them, what then ?

I can say that I never had any problems with my own cars at all, apart from the Aussie M21 4speed box, but that had to do with how they reconditioned them using worn out gears, I should of forked out and bought a brand new box.
Same can be with reconditioned engines, they were slapped together with no regard at all. or built by idiots etc.

I would not say all Toyotas are boring. the main problem was that the engines were to small. for my liking. back in the days.

If Toyota had 6 cyl engines of 3.3L to 4.1L in the 70's on they may of been taken much more seriously.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by coo

72 - end of the Datsun 1600, and the start of the 180B

Jap cars but assembled in Australia right?

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

If Toyota had 6 cyl engines of 3.3L to 4.1L in the 70's on they may of been taken much more seriously.

The Aussie big 6.. there are still many holding onto that notion.
Toyota actually did quite well with its marketing of the Aurion, a bit too late.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by smoo

Yet Holden/GM still dumped $1 billion into the VE, so maybe it wasn't that obvious.
When the VT and AU were launched, did anyone predict the demise of the large sedan (or sedans in general) would come, or at least be realised within ten years?
Did anyone foresee the rise of the dual cab ute, SUV/crossover and a hugely diverse market offering buyers significantly more choice than the 1990s...

Ford did foresee the rise in SUV's, that's why they got in early with the Territory, because they knew the market was heading that way. They wouldn't have seen the fast and devastating drop off in sedans though. They would have known the drop off was coming, but they would have expected it to be much slower and the drop offs to be less dramatic than what they actually were.

The rate at which people abandoned sedans was pretty quick and painful.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by smoo

Yeah, although I know of many people who've purchased these things as private vehicles with no tax incentive. A bit of sheep mentality or keeping up with the Joneses, making excuses to justify their purchase instead of buying one out of necessity.

No I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

most Buyers want for bang for buck - yes a tax incentive is one.

But the for the price the twin cabs are good value.

for a family They do everything that the Falcodore did and more.

There are only a few out their hanging onto their old ideas - the Joneses as you say are not doing it to be cool its practicality

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ford did foresee the rise in SUV's, that's why they got in early with the Territory, because they knew the market was heading that way. They wouldn't have seen the fast and devastating drop off in sedans though. They would have known the drop off was coming, but they would have expected it to be much slower and the drop offs to be less dramatic than what they actually were.

The rate at which people abandoned sedans was pretty quick and painful.

Makes you wonder, if they killed Falcon at FG and spent everything on the Territory would it have been able to get the Lion V6 diesel and ZF 8speed within budget, Sync 3, lane keep assist, active cruise, AEB, rear ross traffic alert ..etc....which most Ford's get as standard now...instead of no local SUV and nothing in the same price bracket from all the imports in 2022. In fact find me a RWD biased car-like SUV of Terry size now that doesn't say BMW/MB/Jeep or even higher $$$.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

They do everything that the Falcodore did and more.

Except go around corners.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Except go around corners.

You'd be shocked at how hard I drive my Ranger! It's actually not as bad as you would think, taught myself to heal and toe and all in that thing.

In fairness, that is a single cab low rider though.

[rare ss]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

No I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

most Buyers want for bang for buck - yes a tax incentive is one.

But the for the price the twin cabs are good value.

for a family They do everything that the Falcodore did and more.

There are only a few out their hanging onto their old ideas - the Joneses as you say are not doing it to be cool its practicality

The wife and I hate the whole SUV thing.. we'll be driving our large sedans till we're old and grey

Saying that the new Raptor might sway me to slum it in a dual cab ute

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

You'd be shocked at how hard I drive my Ranger! It's actually not as bad as you would think, taught myself to heal and toe and all in that thing.

In fairness, that is a single cab low rider though.

When I start seeing them at Bathurst, LeMans or tin top racing I might be convinced.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

The Aussie big 6.. there are still many holding onto that notion.
Toyota actually did quite well with its marketing of the Aurion, a bit too late.

My wife has a 2011 Aurion from new, nothing gone wrong, just got it's 3rd battery wast week.
160.000km up still the original spark plugs. one air filter and nothing but oil and filter changes, only I have service it and still original brake pads with plenty meat all round. original shocks as well.
I only just used this Scratch solution crap that was given to me, on it's headlights, they were just starting to go tainted on the topes a touch, yes the product worked, but not as it claims on VT, I touched up a bit on the bumper were she had hit something, well yes from a distance it looks better or in a photo, but it does not repair anything.

I know nothing of the marketing of the Aurion but I wanted her to get the 2011 Falcon or Commodore but she said that she could not see out of them as well as the Aurion.

It's the FWD that puts me off especially on dirt roads. but for the majority of people it's a bloody good car and fast especially with 95 octane you get like an extra 40HP.
It out performs the Commodore 6 and Falcon 6 bar the Turbo. the Falcon 6 has more torque tho.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

When I start seeing them at Bathurst, LeMans or tin top racing I might be convinced.

Aa twin cab handles just fine for the average family that don't want a race car, I would argue that they are better for family trips with less car sickness than the Fairmont's my dad used to have with their swampy suspension. I used to refer to them as boats.

The average Falcon is not good around a race track either, unless they are modified

PS You know there is a super utes class now..
https://www.supercars.com/news/super...erutes-opener/

but since this thread is about Toyotas I found the ranger is a much better drive than the Hilux.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

No I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

most Buyers want for bang for buck - yes a tax incentive is one.

But the for the price the twin cabs are good value.

for a family They do everything that the Falcodore did and more.

There are only a few out their hanging onto their old ideas - the Joneses as you say are not doing it to be cool its practicality

The supposed fuel price crisis is a good reminder of how people place emotions over logic when it comes to vehicle purchasing.

The dual cab fad is no different.
Many haven't bought them for their intended purpose, instead because they are the thing to do/have. These people use them to do the same duties a car will, but have comprised some justification for the purchase (oh, I go to the snow 3 times/year, or I need to take the grass clipping to the dump once a month, so I need a Wilktrack or $90k Amarok).
As a dedicated family rig I can't see the value in them especially a higher optioned Hilux/Ranger/Amarok... you get bugger all for the money compared to family wagons like Subaru Outback or Skoda Octavia, or SUV like Highlander, Grand Cherokee, Skoda Kodiac etc.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

PS You know there is a super utes class now..
https://www.supercars.com/news/super...erutes-opener/

When they were first introduced a couple of years ago, they were a joke. They were slow, blew black smoke & fell over on corners.

First mod was to lower them, fit decent tyres & wheels & sort the suspension. But they were still slow & blew black smoke.

In the latest incarnation, they simply fitted an LS V8 & a decent transmission.

They can actually 'race' them now, but they still haven't approached the times set by the Holden/Ford utes.

Dr Terry

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

When they were first introduced a couple of years ago, they were a joke. They were slow, blew black smoke & fell over on corners.

First mod was to lower them, fit decent tyres & wheels & sort the suspension. But they were still slow & blew black smoke.

In the latest incarnation, they simply fitted an LS V8 & a decent transmission.

They can actually 'race' them now, but they still haven't approached the times set by the Holden/Ford utes.

Dr Terry

Around here most seem to try though

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Nissan and Mitsubishi began local production to avoid tariffs

and Toyota
Yes, they all did.

I suppose that way back when, local production, or CKD assembly, was the best way to go, but by the 70's it was all about adapting to whatever market conditions government created.
Toyota has always done that well. In the end, the government was actually paying them to assemble Hybrid Camrys here.

Ford and GM not so much.
Some of their actions, driven by their "global outlook" just beggar belief.
At the time, the Focus was the best mid-sized car in the world, and the Australian Government was prepared to pay squillions to have it built here. But Ford decided cbf.

The reduction of import tariffs was only supposed to make the local industry more competitive. But in the end I don't think any of the local builders were pushing to retain them.

Toyota was typical. Whilst the money flowed, they continued to build Camrys locally. When the money ran out, they just flipped over to importing. Business as Usual.

[Crazy Dazz]

And Camrys have come to typify Toyota's successful formula.
Nobody sets out to buy a Camry for themselves.
They are the darlings of the Taxi Industry.
Uber drivers dream of being able to afford a Camry.
Fleet operators love them
and they are the perfect 2nd "Family Car"

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Aa twin cab handles just fine for the average family that don't want a race car, I would argue that they are better for family trips with less car sickness than the Fairmont's my dad used to have with their swampy suspension. I used to refer to them as boats.

The average Falcon is not good around a race track either, unless they are modified

PS You know there is a super utes class now..
https://www.supercars.com/news/super...erutes-opener/

but since this thread is about Toyotas I found the ranger is a much better drive than the Hilux.

That's why you always see them on dash cam owners Australia compilations facing backwards half way through a roundabout because how ****ty LT/4X4 tyres are the moment there's a slight bit of moisture

No fail every month there's a Thailand Special facing backwards in a roundabout.

Maybe everyone needs to do their Ps in an L300 Mitsubishi Express van, that'll put hairs on everyone's chest to be competent in controlling light commercial vehicles

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

And Camrys have come to typify Toyota's successful formula.
Nobody sets out to buy a Camry for themselves.
They are the darlings of the Taxi Industry.
Uber drivers dream of being able to afford a Camry.
Fleet operators love them
and they are the perfect 2nd "Family Car"

Unless you are Indian - then it's a status symbol to other Indians having a new Toyota Camry.