Car dealers and the games they play

[Big_Daz]

Originally Posted by Smoke Pursuit

Yes I had a bad experience with these guys. Referred a friend of mine to them and all hell broke loose (their service is worse then sales).

I won't be referring anyone to them again! I know its a long drive by try Grand Prix Mazda, I have some friends who have bought their and have had good experiences.

Hey Smoke, funny you mention that mate i actually had a work mate reccomend Grand Prix to me today so will be going to speak to them...

[Big_Daz]

Hey Guys,

Don't mean to thread mine but figured may as well ask in here before starting a new thread.

Having some drama's with the dealer I bought my Mazda from. I have had the car since 5 May. I got a phone call from the dealer about the deposit and them saying they only received $100 instead of $500 and they expect to me to just give them another $400.

Do they have any grounds at all to get this off me? Contract was signed by all involved (myself, the salesman and the Sales Manager) and the car was delivered to me without any issues. As far as I was aware the contract is binding once signed by all parties and they have no grounds for recourse.

I paid the deposit in Cash so I'm finding it hard to prove to them with Bank statements. The Finance Manager has been basically harassing me for the last week about it and I am over it....

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by Big_Daz

Hey Guys,

Don't mean to thread mine but figured may as well ask in here before starting a new thread.

Having some drama's with the dealer I bought my Mazda from. I have had the car since 5 May. I got a phone call from the dealer about the deposit and them saying they only received $100 instead of $500 and they expect to me to just give them another $400.

Do they have any grounds at all to get this off me? Contract was signed by all involved (myself, the salesman and the Sales Manager) and the car was delivered to me without any issues. As far as I was aware the contract is binding once signed by all parties and they have no grounds for recourse.

I paid the deposit in Cash so I'm finding it hard to prove to them with Bank statements. The Finance Manager has been basically harassing me for the last week about it and I am over it....

Did you pay the $500 or the $100? I think it's more about moral and ethical grounds than anything. Legally if they do not have written proof of what deposit was paid and they are out of pocket, then they don't have a leg to stand on. But that is where the moral side of me comes in. I know some car sales people are scum, but for me, I couldn't sleep knowing I had agreed to paying a price and short changing someone because of it. Just because they bend people over in price, doesnt mean I should do the same. I believe Karma comes around. But if you did pay the full $500 and you have no proof of it, the ethical side of me would say, ignore their calls and pick a different dealership to deal with with warranty and service claims. It's their negligence they will have to deal with.

The choice is yours at the end of the day.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Big_Daz

I paid the deposit in Cash so I'm finding it hard to prove to them with Bank statements. The Finance Manager has been basically harassing me for the last week about it and I am over it....

I would have thought that any transaction, especially cash, would require a receipt.

You should have a copy of the contract, how much deposit does it say there ?

[Full Noise]

I’m with GasOLane on this. Follow the paper trail. I find it quite remarkable that they would have done the deal and let you drive away without the full deposit being paid. There’s something not quite right here.

[cram_it_frog]

Big_Daz

what does itsay on the paper work for the cAR

[danzvtil]

Did you stop off by the atm and withdraw the cash? The amount will be on your bank statement.
If the deposit amount is shown on the sale contract, then tell em to take a long walk off a short pier.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by zilo

Be prepared to walk out...that's the secret.

I negotiated hard, we were about to sign then I bet my son that I could get the salesman's hat (cause my son wanted one just like it) he laughed and said no and we walked out.

He chased us into the car park with the hat...LOL

I work for a Kia dealer, customers think that works here still, and it just doesn't. We present our first over below MSRP, close to dealer invoice, hoping we can make a little something on the back end. At the end of the day, we have to make something to pay our bills and put food on the table. Oftentimes, they still think we are ripping them off when we are not. They compare our real price to some advertised price in Salt Lake, which includes all the rebates hardly anybody qualifies for (and even if they did qualify for them, it wouldn't matter which dealer they ended up buying at). They tell us about this "advertised price." I bet oftentimes they already know they can't get it for that price, but are trying to trick us into saying "ok, we'll match it." Then there's customers with expectancy bias. In this case, the customer goes into the dealer expecting the dealer to be a bunch of crooks. They always find what they are looking for because any cue, no matter what it is, confirms their theory. I had that happen to me. I told a customer on the phone that a truck he called about was rough cosmetically, but mechanically sound. It had 184,000 miles which he knew about. I said there was a missing tailgate, scratches on the paint, and missing trim. He got to the dealership and said I lied to him because I didn't tell him about the cracked mirror. I told him it was $5000 below book value and he said "not in that condition it's not" (actually it was). From a dealership's perspective many customers go in with unrealistic expectations. When those people "walk," honestly, it's like who cares because for them to "win," the dealership has to loose. The only time walking could work is if a dealership thought they are about to get away with a crappy deal for the customer. If they're chasing you down with a hat, there's a chance they're willing to take a small loss in hopes you will be a service customer or you finance through them. My finance manager offered one of my customer's $500 below dealer invoice, just so we could get the finance deal and because we were below the manufacturers quota, and at the end of the month. They still walked. Silly!

But there are a few games in the field.

Advertising by monthly payment with no indication of a down payment. You can have it for 260 a month, just with $2000 down that you didn't know about.

Creating the sense of urgency (sometimes it's real like a 0% finance deal), other times it's an unknown because everything changes month to month, but if a dealer can find a valid reason why you should do it today, they will.

But customers play games too, like "walking." Not being upfront about mechanical problems with their trade. Maybe they justify it to themselves, "well they make money screwing everyone else..."

At the end of the day, we all play the role of the customer, we all play the role of the salesperson at some point or another. In terms of talking trade value, the dealership is the customer and you get to be the salesperson. If you don't like what the dealership is offering, sell it privately.

[Danny]

Car buying 101.

Oh! Look at this?


Oh wow, look at that!


Now would you just LOOK at this!?

[Beastie]

An oldie, but a goodie!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN65mEhgpqQ

[Mr Brooksy]

To the OP, not confined to QLD or is it even confined to Australia! I just bought a car in China and the dealers are just as dodgy as back home!

Honestly, finding a good honest car dealer is as hard as finding intelligent life in another galaxy! But it is possible believe it or not (honest car dealer that is), I found a guy at a dealer who is my first port of call every time. If he can't get what I want, he will help me look at other dealers etc. He now offers me "family pricing" (which is usually eg $5000 off a $20,000 rrp) every time I'm looking regardless of car. I have bought 2 cars from him now and 3 friends I have referred to him.

Best part is... He is the mechanic/guy who does the cleaning and small maintenence on all the cars! And sells only when he wants to! So no used car sales man rubbish, only an honest guy with no quota to fulfil!

[vbvbvb088]

me ol mate Gordon Farkas....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzFmeNEiEPc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb0Mgx277g0

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by chevypower

I work for a Kia dealer, customers think that works here still, and it just doesn't. We present our first over below MSRP, close to dealer invoice, hoping we can make a little something on the back end. At the end of the day, we have to make something to pay our bills and put food on the table. Oftentimes, they still think we are ripping them off when we are not. They compare our real price to some advertised price in Salt Lake, which includes all the rebates hardly anybody qualifies for (and even if they did qualify for them, it wouldn't matter which dealer they ended up buying at). They tell us about this "advertised price." I bet oftentimes they already know they can't get it for that price, but are trying to trick us into saying "ok, we'll match it." Then there's customers with expectancy bias. In this case, the customer goes into the dealer expecting the dealer to be a bunch of crooks. They always find what they are looking for because any cue, no matter what it is, confirms their theory. I had that happen to me. I told a customer on the phone that a truck he called about was rough cosmetically, but mechanically sound. It had 184,000 miles which he knew about. I said there was a missing tailgate, scratches on the paint, and missing trim. He got to the dealership and said I lied to him because I didn't tell him about the cracked mirror. I told him it was $5000 below book value and he said "not in that condition it's not" (actually it was). From a dealership's perspective many customers go in with unrealistic expectations. When those people "walk," honestly, it's like who cares because for them to "win," the dealership has to loose. The only time walking could work is if a dealership thought they are about to get away with a crappy deal for the customer. If they're chasing you down with a hat, there's a chance they're willing to take a small loss in hopes you will be a service customer or you finance through them. My finance manager offered one of my customer's $500 below dealer invoice, just so we could get the finance deal and because we were below the manufacturers quota, and at the end of the month. They still walked. Silly!

But there are a few games in the field.

Advertising by monthly payment with no indication of a down payment. You can have it for 260 a month, just with $2000 down that you didn't know about.

Creating the sense of urgency (sometimes it's real like a 0% finance deal), other times it's an unknown because everything changes month to month, but if a dealer can find a valid reason why you should do it today, they will.

But customers play games too, like "walking." Not being upfront about mechanical problems with their trade. Maybe they justify it to themselves, "well they make money screwing everyone else..."

At the end of the day, we all play the role of the customer, we all play the role of the salesperson at some point or another. In terms of talking trade value, the dealership is the customer and you get to be the salesperson. If you don't like what the dealership is offering, sell it privately.

Im amazed by this obsession in the US of knowing the dealers "invoice" price on a car. I mean that's none of the customers business, they are either willing to buy at the sale price or theyre not.
Imagine walking into Coles to buy bread and demanding to know what their cost is, its totally irrelevant.

And dodgy finance, one dealer was advertising 0% interest on car loans, reading the fine print stated you needed to pay a 50% deposit and a 50% Balloon at the end of making payments for 5 years WTF!

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by vbvbvb088

me ol mate Gordon Farkas....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzFmeNEiEPc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb0Mgx277g0

I showed clips of The Big Steal to everyone at work, now we all joke about having someone else on the line interested in the same car for a higher price!

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Im amazed by this obsession in the US of knowing the dealers "invoice" price on a car. I mean that's none of the customers business, they are either willing to buy at the sale price or theyre not.
Imagine walking into Coles to buy bread and demanding to know what their cost is, its totally irrelevant.

And dodgy finance, one dealer was advertising 0% interest on car loans, reading the fine print stated you needed to pay a 50% deposit and a 50% Balloon at the end of making payments for 5 years WTF!

I agree, I'm amazed people don't start asking if they can buy it for what it costs the manufacturer to make. "I'll give you 10c for that bottle of Coke!" I didn't know about that 0% scam. Kia's 0% financing right now over here is actual 0% with no payments for 90 days (with good credit). No downpayment needed usually, no balloon. My mum told me that when we got our EA2 Falcon GL in 1990, it was something like 25% interest with a balloon payment at the end! Ouch! Probably during that recession we had to have? People don't know how good they have it today.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by chevypower

I showed clips of The Big Steal to everyone at work, now we all joke about having someone else on the line interested in the same car for a higher price!.

Don’t laugh, it really happens here.
I stopped at this "two bob" operation on South Rd, Moorabbin a few years back as they had a half reasonable looking EL sedan parked out the front. At the time I was looking for a car just to leave at the depot so something like this EL would be fine. A lot of truck drivers have old cars to drive to work and leave their good cars at home. At the time, my depot car was a TE Cortina. It was a good depot car but was getting old and parts were hard to come by.

Let's just say that this bloke was practically reading the script of the big steal to me. He saw that I pulled up in and old sh!##er and went to work.

“This is a fantastic car, we’ve picked it up cheap and were prepared to pass the saving on to you, although this price is only available for today”

I had a look under the bonnet (Hood for you US blokes, lol) and his offsider walks out and says “I’ve got a bloke on the phone who wants the Falcon.” I just looked at the salesman with that facial expression of (you’re ****ing kidding me, right?) and continued to look the car over. It had a few faults, no RWC and wasn’t worth the hassle.

I should have taken the DVD with me and told him where I’d heard that line before. Funny thing was that I drove past the dealer a week later and it was still out the front with the same price on it.

[Agent86]

Ive heard that story before Full noise!

When i bought my gs ute, when i decided to work on a deal, the dealer was asked point blank to not waste either my time nor his with games.

He scratched out a reasonable price which was a little more than i hoped for but still good considering they has just gone NLA on orders.
He nearly fell over when i agreed and put a sizeable deposit on the vehicle on a saturday.

Sometimes the no bs approach works well with fending games off.
Didnt work when chexking out the 300c srt8 we were going to buy. The dealer wouldnt even unlock the door for us.

[EgoFG]

Every Dealer purchase I have made (new, demo, used) the paperwork in my posession Has a "Total Cost, Amount Paid, amount owing".
If it was a cash transaction, then that paperwork is all that reasonably matters - If all the signed paperwork says zero owing, then there is zero owing.

Even if in fact you only paid $100, they will not be able to pursue you legally for the other $400 - in that instance, paying the $400, when you know you did not already, is a moral issue, not a legal one.

Originally Posted by Big_Daz

Hey Guys,

Don't mean to thread mine but figured may as well ask in here before starting a new thread.

Having some drama's with the dealer I bought my Mazda from. I have had the car since 5 May. I got a phone call from the dealer about the deposit and them saying they only received $100 instead of $500 and they expect to me to just give them another $400.

Do they have any grounds at all to get this off me? Contract was signed by all involved (myself, the salesman and the Sales Manager) and the car was delivered to me without any issues. As far as I was aware the contract is binding once signed by all parties and they have no grounds for recourse.

I paid the deposit in Cash so I'm finding it hard to prove to them with Bank statements. The Finance Manager has been basically harassing me for the last week about it and I am over it....

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by chevypower

...... At the end of the day, we all play the role of the customer, we all play the role of the salesperson at some point or another. In terms of talking trade value, the dealership is the customer and you get to be the salesperson. If you don't like what the dealership is offering, sell it privately.

Agreed ... with a caveat.

Any professional salesman will walk away from you rather than loose on a deal (speak of a real net loss here - including intangibles like meeting quota, and deferred income like servicing)- they will not say "yes" to a sale that leaves them owing the dealer money !

- I say push hard with no regrets

Most buyers are not astute, and certainly not professional buyers.
The net effect is that the salesman is more likely to, more often make more money than the minimum he needs to strike the deal.

I have walked away from a car I loved, I returned to my wife's car and drove off to have them drive after me (private).
I have quoted the dealer fit costs of options on a new car.

I developed a technique in Chinese markets - a place where the is one guarantee : you will be ripped off, but you get to choose who rips you off, and whether you enjoy the experience.

I have also used this approach in buying a car.

1) choose 2-3 places that you do not want to buy from - that are far enough apart that your communication will not be overheard, the product must be identical.
2) start with an unrealistic offer, bargain hard, do not buy, do not lie, be friendly.
3) as you walk away listen for them call out a price, or perhaps "your Price".
4) With the info you now have now choose a different lowest target price - Use this price as you starting price as you repeat 2,3,4 for each "unpreferred vendor".

5) now you have a realistic lowest price, not one that would see the sales person loosing money, if you are happy with that price ... go to the vendor you want to buy from, and negotiate to that lowest price.
I use an intro like - "I know I am going to pay for you dinner tonight, and I want you to have a beer with that dinner - but I don't want you to have champagne and lobster at my expense."

This is not a game to play with a significant other in the room ;-)

Some strangers will hate you for as long as it takes for the next potential customer to walk in the door - but they will not have lost any money on the sale.

A Sale will only happen if both the buyer and the seller agree.


Also - never compare any prices after you have signed the deal - no good can come from that - you were happy with the price you agreed on - so move forward in life, not backwards.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

Every Dealer purchase I have made (new, demo, used) the paperwork in my posession Has a "Total Cost, Amount Paid, amount owing".
If it was a cash transaction, then that paperwork is all that reasonably matters - If all the signed paperwork says zero owing, then there is zero owing.

Even if in fact you only paid $100, they will not be able to pursue you legally for the other $400 - in that instance, paying the $400, when you know you did not already, is a moral issue, not a legal one.

I fully understand that this is a long weekend and not everyone would be near a computer, however, I would have thought that this would be a pretty easy issue to sort out with a dealer. Refer to post 64 from GasOLane.

I’m interested to hear what the outcome of this is when Big Daz is back online.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by damo6

They gave me a tin of lollies, buy 45g car, get a free tin of lollies. As for the ming mole i made it clear that the only extra i wanted was number plates

Bought a four year old Landcruiser from a Toyota dealer back in 2007, and when we picked up the immaculately detailed 'Cruiser, I noticed a little box on the passenger seat, black and red, labelled clearly "TRD" on it with the Toyota symbol...goodie! A little pressy...maybe some interesting little trinket from the TRD catalogue to thank us for spending forty-odd grand on the car!

It was a box of tissues...

[PG2]

I was in the car sales industry for many years and this movie is so true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2wLlrfU89E

Or you can watch the whole movie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhw0fiL8Brs

[sr71]

I had a Fun Facts book about New Zealand, from the 90's. 4 of the top 10 Wealthiest people were Car Salesman/dealership owners.
My Old Man was a Used Car Dealer. I recall
💰 him pouring some thick oil additive, to quieten down a noisy engine. He was laughing and imitating the GLOB GLOB sound, as he poured it in.
💰 Selling Holden Camira to a family of 6ft (plus). The teenage girl's knees were pushing into the seat in front. ( this was the only time he tried to explain himself: he said " if I didn't sell them a car , the dealer down the road would have done the same thing)
💰"A good day at the races", was ripping them off on the Trade-in, and selling them a bigger car to tow the caravan he'd sell them as well. He made $20k off a retired couple,on a Triple transaction. I heard that story a few times.
💰 pumping 40PSi into a Holden Sunbird front tyres, to lighten the steering. For a little old lady.
👊🏻he was doing the 'Belly Bounce' to customers in the 80's. Like Paul Hogan's Seargant Donger.

There was also a Dealership that employed Believers of the Faith. I recall them revving to Redline, the auction cars , looking for smoke. Apparently they would say to customers:
"God/Jesus wants you to have this car"
They were called the God Squad, by the other dealers.

I couldn't do it. I feel sorry for sales staff that are desperate for a sale, to pay bills. It's not suited to everyone. But the Gun Sellers are born to Hustle!

[sr71]

Here's a 1 minute clip of one of Will Ferrel's characters, Car Dealer Ashley Shaeffer.
http://youtu.be/1fw3c9DI6KE

[Big_Daz]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

I fully understand that this is a long weekend and not everyone would be near a computer, however, I would have thought that this would be a pretty easy issue to sort out with a dealer. Refer to post 64 from GasOLane.

I’m interested to hear what the outcome of this is when Big Daz is back online.

Im thinking along the same lines as Ego FG... The contract states I have paid it and has a Zero value, I was delivered the car, they don't have a leg to stand on...

The Deposit Receipt I don't have anywhere, I looked over the weekend. It may have been thrown out by mistake, I am not sure. As far as I am concerned they have the full deposit (the contract was checked AND signed by the Sales Lady, the Finance/Business Manager AND the bloody Sales Manager at the dealer before I signed it.... With the hours I work and sick little boy to deal with I don't think it should be my responsibility to sort it out..... I just said to them to leave me alone, stop harassing me, I don't need the extra stress at the moment... I was just wondering in telling them "Ive got a signed contract stating I paid it.. go away" that they cant come back at me with legal procedings or anything..

Not that the dealer would probably give a toss but this harassment has lost them 5 years of servicing and the sale of at least 2 cars (My mother has just ordered a CX-3 from a different dealer because of this and my wife wants a CX-5 Grand Touring Diesel which we will be getting through someone else)..

[XA GS Ute]

A few years back a friend of mine & his best mate were down at a Subaru dealer looking to buy a WRX STi as a bit of a thrash around car. Since both guys were in their early 30's the salesman wouldn't let them take the car for a test drive without proof they were serious buyers and had the money. My mate says to the salesman, just take a look around the corner & see what we rocked up in. Salesman looks around to see a brand new Ferrari 599.
Salesman says, take me for a drive in the Ferrari & the STi's all yours for a thrash.
An hour later, my friends best mate had his new STi bush banger.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Big_Daz

Im thinking along the same lines as Ego FG... The contract states I have paid it and has a Zero value, I was delivered the car, they don't have a leg to stand on...

The Deposit Receipt I don't have anywhere, I looked over the weekend. It may have been thrown out by mistake, I am not sure. As far as I am concerned they have the full deposit (the contract was checked AND signed by the Sales Lady, the Finance/Business Manager AND the bloody Sales Manager at the dealer before I signed it.... With the hours I work and sick little boy to deal with I don't think it should be my responsibility to sort it out..... I just said to them to leave me alone, stop harassing me, I don't need the extra stress at the moment... I was just wondering in telling them "Ive got a signed contract stating I paid it.. go away" that they cant come back at me with legal procedings or anything..

Not that the dealer would probably give a toss but this harassment has lost them 5 years of servicing and the sale of at least 2 cars (My mother has just ordered a CX-3 from a different dealer because of this and my wife wants a CX-5 Grand Touring Diesel which we will be getting through someone else)..

I'm quite sure all the paper work would have been checked, signed & any outstanding money owed paid before the car was handed over.

Your paper work confirms this.

[ea90gl]

Hey fellas not too sure what to think about this one but maybe the more experienced would be able to shed some light.

Just visited a Renault dealer to hopefully place an order on a new work van, a new model has recently come out a few months ago which I am keen on. The general pricing is decent and they are offering extended warranty to 5 years at the moment but the dealer was not willing to budge on price or throw in any extras.

I got the spiel about how there is no stock of the new model I was after (LWB twin turbo diesel in manual which has to have a lift up tailgate instead of twin barn doors) and there could be a possible wait until January 2016. This seems odd to me, is there some form of game play here or could it be they are genuinely low on stock?

I am dead set willing to commit and discussed payment etc also had a test drive of a SWB model they had, I made it clear that I am not after the older model at any run out pricing and he did not try pushing this option at all. I basically left it as I will think about it and apparently he will be getting back to me tomorrow to let me know if he can find something sooner.

Any thoughts?

[naddis01]

Let your fingers do the walking and talk to other dealers.

[Full Noise]

If you’re that keen on one of these, do as Naddis says and get on the phone. Don’t worry about these jokers, if they want to sell one, they’ll find one for you and if they do, they will keep ringing if they want the sale.

I’d be getting on the phone to dealers in Melbourne and Sydney as well. Don’t worry about the distance because if you find the right one, a one way air fare is stuff all and just drive the thing home.

Remember, the ball is in your court, not theirs. They know that you are a serious buyer so let them know that distance isn’t an issue and you are prepared to travel for the right one.

I’ve just looked at the Renault web site and the “LWB Traffic” looks pretty good.

Good luck.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by ea90gl

Hey fellas not too sure what to think about this one but maybe the more experienced would be able to shed some light.

Just visited a Renault dealer to hopefully place an order on a new work van, a new model has recently come out a few months ago which I am keen on. The general pricing is decent and they are offering extended warranty to 5 years at the moment but the dealer was not willing to budge on price or throw in any extras.

I got the spiel about how there is no stock of the new model I was after (LWB twin turbo diesel in manual which has to have a lift up tailgate instead of twin barn doors) and there could be a possible wait until January 2016. This seems odd to me, is there some form of game play here or could it be they are genuinely low on stock?

I am dead set willing to commit and discussed payment etc also had a test drive of a SWB model they had, I made it clear that I am not after the older model at any run out pricing and he did not try pushing this option at all. I basically left it as I will think about it and apparently he will be getting back to me tomorrow to let me know if he can find something sooner.

Any thoughts?

If the model you are after is brand new, they may be right, you generally get good discounts on older or less popular, or ones where there is plenty of stock.