Unions will be the death of Australian car manufacturing

[flappist]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

I Think there are a lot of people that strongly agree with you . . i see many many many people under 30 who are following your advice . they are single or newly wedded and living at home with mum and dad . refusing to buy anything which will grossly put them in debt .
the question is , IF THESE PEOPLE TAKE MORE PAYCUTS , will this solve holdens problems and make life better for our country .
TIME WILL TELL IF YOUR RIGHT PRYDY - GOOD LUCK !!!

Did it ever occur to you that the pay cut might be temporary until the economy gets better and then go back to what it was or maybe even increase?

If you are running low on petrol do you slow down to use as little as possible until you get to the next servo and then when you have filled go back to the original speed or even faster to catch up?

Or do you speed up immediately so you get to the servo more quickly so you don't run out and get stuck on the side of the road.........

Not long ago the QLD Government determined that they could not afford to pay all the public servants and had to reduce payroll cost by 10%.

Someone suggested a 10% pay cut across the board so all retained their jobs but guess who went bezerk over this idea.
Nett result 10% are now unemployed. Tell me how they were helped by their union.

George Orwell was right when he wrote "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others".......

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

It's not just shareholders. Here's a question for you - do you have a super fund?

There's billions of dollars per annum that super funds must invest in to something. That something is the share market.

If you have a super fund, then you are technically a share holder. Do you want your fund to increase in value? It can only do that if the companies in which it is invested can make a profit. The bigger the better.

We are all complicit for this reason alone. It's inescapable.

Yep I do, and I don't like that side of it.

If canning my super fund meant that ethics were returned to business, and wages were reasonable, and cost of living was a function of these items, then I'd be first in line.

How many billions of super money was lost recently? Where does that go? Does it just disappear?


There seems to be this mentality that everyone is owed something, and as such pay has become more like compensation, like they're doing the world a favour by going to work.

[GQ_Smooth]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a factory worker getting paid 65K per year is not why Australians aren't buying Commodores/Falcons/Aurions. If GMH can guarantee employment until 2022 (which is as long as I believe Holden will be assembling/manufacturing in Australia) for workers if they agree to the proposed changes, then it should be put to a vote, if they can't give that guarantee, them they are just cutting their nose to spite their face. I have little doubt GM will close Holden if they don't get their way, and I have little doubt that GM will close Holden manufacturing after 2022 regardless. The acquisition of Daewoo, spelt the slow demise of Holden manufacturing in Australia.

The Australian correction is now starting, please be prepared people. Manage your debts, many good, intelligent, hard working people will be doing it very tough, in the medium term.

We have sold our house to minimize our debt and kept a small investment unit to retire in if things don't look to improve in the next 10-15 years. I believe in what I'm saying, not just posting comments on a forum.

It's not the Governments/Unions/big businesses/Joe publics fault. We are all in it together and until we are all part of the solution, it will continue to get worse.

[Maka]

My thoughts on this is until there is a win-win situation for both sides (unions, workers & manufacturers, suppliers, small business etc), manufacturing in Oz will splutter along until there is common ground between them. Oversea's economic problems have played a bigger role in the inevitable, semi demise of local manufacturing, but instead of standing shoulder to shoulder to find solutions at our end both parties seem more intent on political point scoring, while families on both sides suffer!

I'de like to think if it wasnt election time, this issue would be handled differently by both sides - enough is enough, both sides need to come together now & work as a team.

cheers, Maka

[westy73]

Originally Posted by MAD

Yep I do, and I don't like that side of it.

If canning my super fund meant that ethics were returned to business, and wages were reasonable, and cost of living was a function of these items, then I'd be first in line.

How many billions of super money was lost recently? Where does that go? Does it just disappear?


There seems to be this mentality that everyone is owed something, and as such pay has become more like compensation, like they're doing the world a favour by going to work.

Totally agree, we have become the dependent generation looking for the next Government handout. It seems we think we are all 'OWED' something by someone. It will be the death knell of industry in Australia if we aren't already well down that slippery slope.

[FGXR6TUTE]

Originally Posted by Maka

I'de like to think if it wasnt election time, this issue would be handled differently by both sides - enough is enough, both sides need to come together now & work as a team.

Indeed, however based on what I've seen that's never going to happen. Our politicians all appear to be more interested in creating a new series of "The Muppet Show" and giving themselves pay rises than working for the good of the country IMO.

[GQ_Smooth]

Originally Posted by FGXR6TUTE

Indeed, however based on what I've seen that's never going to happen. Our politicians all appear to be more interested in creating a new series of "The Muppet Show" and giving themselves pay rises than working for the good of the country IMO.

We, the voting public, allow this to happen. Both sides of politics are guilty, regardless of your political view.

It's making me think in 30-40 years our great grand kids will be moving to China for a better life.

[KIWI-1]

fte50
Do you and your union colleagues regard the car makers switch to sourcing offshore component suppliers as "Un-Australian"?
Have you black-listed imported components because it is "Un-Australian"?

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by flappist

Did it ever occur to you that the pay cut might be temporary until the economy gets better and then go back to what it was or maybe even increase?

If you are running low on petrol do you slow down to use as little as possible until you get to the next servo and then when you have filled go back to the original speed or even faster to catch up?

Or do you speed up immediately so you get to the servo more quickly so you don't run out and get stuck on the side of the road.........

Not long ago the QLD Government determined that they could not afford to pay all the public servants and had to reduce payroll cost by 10%.

Someone suggested a 10% pay cut across the board so all retained their jobs but guess who went bezerk over this idea.
Nett result 10% are now unemployed. Tell me how they were helped by their union.

George Orwell was right when he wrote "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others".......

in principle you are right . unions dont always oppose this idea , in fact eba's are the time when employers often negotiate with workers and unions , and often members then will negotiate no pay rise or reduced hours etc . of course times can change overnight . Have you ever seen an employer pickup a new contract and increase its share value then decide to breech it's eba obligations and suddenly start paying over an above the agreed rates of pay to employers ? those options are there . i would like to see if this has happened to anybody employed . there are plenty of members here .
what i have seen and also taken into account is employers often putting agreed side notes - ( documentation ) saying that we will give a further 1 or 2% increase to workers pay if a productivity goal is met by the employees by a certain date , often at the cost of workers losing a pay claim at the time of eba .
Only to be let down by the ceo or manager who signed the eba being terminated with a payout , or moving on when this productivity is reached , therefore the company now flatly refuses to pass it on , which ends up going to court over years and years . / or causing a strike , or workers to get a bad morale , and not trust the business next time they are asked to help the business out . I'n which case all the lovely people come out and bag the union that these very people are members of .

YES GEORGE ORWELL was right , visit a yacht club and see how many employees are members of it, or the elite suburbs of sydney residents ,or seats in 1st class at an airliner and you will very much see he was right . i'm not sure if it's the hardest working people who attain all these goodies .

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by GQ_Smooth

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a factory worker getting paid 65K per year is not why Australians aren't buying Commodores/Falcons/Aurions. If GMH can guarantee employment until 2022 (which is as long as I believe Holden will be assembling/manufacturing in Australia) for workers if they agree to the proposed changes, then it should be put to a vote, if they can't give that guarantee, them they are just cutting their nose to spite their face. I have little doubt GM will close Holden if they don't get their way, and I have little doubt that GM will close Holden manufacturing after 2022 regardless. The acquisition of Daewoo, spelt the slow demise of Holden manufacturing in Australia.

The Australian correction is now starting, please be prepared people. Manage your debts, many good, intelligent, hard working people will be doing it very tough, in the medium term.

We have sold our house to minimize our debt and kept a small investment unit to retire in if things don't look to improve in the next 10-15 years. I believe in what I'm saying, not just posting comments on a forum.

It's not the Governments/Unions/big businesses/Joe publics fault. We are all in it together and until we are all part of the solution, it will continue to get worse.

Why should any company be obliged to give anybody a guarantee of any term . that expectation is ludicrous . they can promise the world if they want . but anything can change that .
thats what employees need to know , and thats why employees need an agreement with a fair outcome for both sides , if agreements cannot be met . the company folds normally .
wage ditching efforts normally end badly . the company folds anyway and workers end up dudded . ( especially with big business . )
bare in mind this concept of the lowest bidders win is not where we got our living standards from in australia . say me and PRYDEY for example where equally qualified and went for a job , he would most likely get the job because he would be happy with enough pay to support his board at home and be subsidised by his parents . he would be satisfied that this is a fair deal most likely . but there could always be someone on a 457 visa , who is happy to share a room with his 12 cousins and will not risk his employer cancelling his 457 visa for complaining that his employer isnt paying award rates of pay , therefore prydey may be forced to start doing chores for his parents as board may be a little too costly for him and so on and so on .

so now gtfpv has lost a potential job because prydey will work for less , gtfpv goes and starts mowing lawns for a living , in competition with prydeys brother . doing ok for a few years and suddenly hard times hit , the owners of the properties start asking gtfpv to help them out and cut the prices to mow thier lawn or he'll have to lose the contract . gtfpv considers it , and tries to ask his grocery store if they will accept $260 for a trolly of groceries instead of $300 cause people are doing it hard and he is helping them out by working for less , the grocery company call security , and all the big businesses that gtfpv employs by paying his bill do the same . gtfpv struggles to wonder why big businesses wont help him out , even though he has been forced to help them out and lost work cause he wouldnt take less money .
now if he only wasnt a member of a union who got him into all of this mess , the big businesses would 've solved all the problems for the country and the world would be a much nicer place for all .

[GQ_Smooth]

[QUOTE= YES GEORGE ORWELL was right , visit a yacht club and see how many employees are members of it, or the elite suburbs of sydney residents ,or seats in 1st class at an airliner and you will very much see he was right . i'm not sure if it's the hardest working people who attain all these goodies .[/QUOTE]

All good accept for the last bit, we all need to get out of the blame/hate game, we are not a communist country.

Some people work hard for their money, some are lucky and fall into it, some are just born into it and others do illegal activities to get it we should only resent the last one.

It still doesn't buy you health and happiness. Just a better class of problem. There are many examples of band union officials as there are bad senior managers.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

YES GEORGE ORWELL was right , visit a yacht club and see how many employees are members of it, or the elite suburbs of sydney residents ,or seats in 1st class at an airliner and you will very much see he was right . i'm not sure if it's the hardest working people who attain all these goodies .

How many of these people have you actually shadowed to know how hard they work, what they do and how they do it, or how hard they worked to get there in the first place. How much risk they take or have taken, how intelligent they are and the good decisions they make now and made in the past. And its certainly not right to value braun over brain, one can make a difference and a fortune out of thinking without sweat
Bit unfair to paste all monetarily sucessfull people with the rich bludger tag as it is unfair to call all blue collar workers stupid and lazy.
As I mentioned earlier in an earlier post, this us vs them will destroy the economy, we need to come together listen to one another to solve all the problems.

JP

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by GQ_Smooth

All good accept for the last bit, we all need to get out of the blame/hate game, we are not a communist country.

Some people work hard for their money, some are lucky and fall into it, some are just born into it and others do illegal activities to get it we should only resent the last one.

It still doesn't buy you health and happiness. Just a better class of problem. There are many examples of band union officials as there are bad senior managers.

yes , but you are forgeting something . money doesnt bring the best out of people those who can make a quick buck almost always will . the honest man has to struggle against this . and thats the cold hard truth of the matter , evil greed does not dwell among an honestly earnt dollar .
fairness has been fought hard for , not given by the wealthy . ( ever) and i stand by this . as much as we like to think the saints have the money , it is not the case .
those who think they are employed cause thier bosses are doing them a favor . need to think again .

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

YES GEORGE ORWELL was right , visit a yacht club and see how many employees are members of it, or the elite suburbs of sydney residents ,or seats in 1st class at an airliner and you will very much see he was right . i'm not sure if it's the hardest working people who attain all these goodies .

What is your definition of an employee?
Everyone works for someone in some way.

But I know what you're referring to and it is a vile generalisation to suggest that "rich" people don't work hard. Your post is just reeking of sour grapes. That people who put in the hours from a young age cannot work towards an executive role that does have a good salary/perks. What is wrong with someone who has completed multiple degrees at university, start at the bottom of a company and work his or her way up to the top and earn the big dollars to run a large organisation?

Are you that upset to see successful people enjoy the spoils of their work?
Do you know that everyone of these people don't work hard? So you can show evidence of executives and the like lounging about leaving major corporations to run themselves?
You're so certain that anyone plucked off the street can run and ensure longevity of a multi billion dollar company?

[Dash_XR]

Same thing will start to happen in construction, the big builders won't be able to afford too build anything because they will have to pay labourers $3000 a week.

Even those little monkeys in the amazon that drink tree sap know that if they take too much the tree will die yet we can't work it out?

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Wretched

What is your definition of an employee?
Everyone works for someone in some way.

But I know what you're referring to and it is a vile generalisation to suggest that "rich" people don't work hard. Your post is just reeking of sour grapes. That people who put in the hours from a young age cannot work towards an executive role that does have a good salary/perks.

Are you that upset to see successful people enjoy the spoils of their work?
Do you know that everyone of these people don't work hard? So you can show evidence of executives and the like lounging about leaving major corporations to run themselves?
You're so certain that anyone plucked off the street can run and ensure longevity of a multi billion dollar company?

please dont take me the wrong way . many many managers and above are working very hard with big responsibility and being burnt too .
imagine having a job where you have to cut costs or be sacked . and have to work unlimited hours to keep your job .
there are only certain people who can do this kind of work . bad people who have no mercy !!! or idiots who think they are doing the world a favor .
these people are forced / or happily voluinteer to give thier own rights of a fair go away as well as anyone underneath them .
workers and unions fight for them more so than what they realise .
it's capatilism out of control that the priciple of a faIR GO OPPOSES .
WHEN YOU GET 1% OF THE POPULATION WITH 98 % OF the wealth . the odds are its bad money . and thats why you dont go in and try and help these people out . they are doing well enough and like a dollar a lot more than you do .
sorry for my staunch opinions .

do you think most managers whop continually move on after 2 years are seeking a challange , or taking a contract with a bonus at the end of it to do something that a nice man struggles to do . ask yourself if your in upper or middle management , why are you moving on again , or if you a long term employye . why you have outlasted about 15 managers inside 25 years .

[GQ_Smooth]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

yes , but you are forgeting something . money doesnt bring the best out of people those who can make a quick buck almost always will . the honest man has to struggle against this . and thats the cold hard truth of the matter , evil greed does not dwell among an honestly earnt dollar .
fairness has been fought hard for , not given by the wealthy . ( ever) and i stand by this . as much as we like to think the saints have the money , it is not the case .
those who think they are employed cause thier bosses are doing them a favor . need to think again .

Awesome comment!.

This is why there is to much conflict in "negotiations" and massive distrust both sides. More pain ahead until we get over this!

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Meanwhile one of the GM plants in Thailand has had the workforce on strike, it is estimated to cost GM $6.5 million a day, the strike went for 3 months. Suddenly Australia doesn't seem so expensive.

There are many risks that you have in low cost countries.

Thailand factories have their own problems as wages are getting higher and higher due to the competition between manufacturing companies. This will hurt in the long run. Also you'll find Thai built vehicles will suffer more and more from quality issues if this isn't addressed.

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

and that's why houses are so expensive cause every tom dick and harry could afford a McMansion cause their wages grew to fast. hell don't just stop at one buy an investment house too to realy drive up demand.

JP

Its funny how the price of houses sky rocketed at the same time capital gains tax was halved in 99. Then we had the mining boom and cheap credit plus more foreign people buying houses. All of a sudden house prices have gone from 3.5-5 times the average wage to 8-9times the average wage and seeing as the average wage increased a fair bit house prices a stupidly expensive.

On top of this you get gouged by power bills because they need to make a profit (its funny that they are paying out dived ends to shareholders) and increasing prices even if there is competition (well in Vic electricity price rises are smaller then NSW/QLD). Now we have water asking to raise prices by another $200 a year (cause $300 was considered to high).

Then you have business that is getting inundated with new legislation for environment, OH&S, more tax for workers, super to rise or paid maternity leave, etc etc.

Its a big merry-go-round and its been out of control for a long time. Unless cost of living is contained reducing pay for some workers isn't going to solve Holden's issue. Its just easier to threaten your workers with their jobs.

No one cared when things were going great guns and everyone is to blame for this.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

Same thing will start to happen in construction, the big builders won't be able to afford too build anything because they will have to pay labourers $3000 a week.

Even those little monkeys in the amazon that drink tree sap know that if they take too much the tree will die yet we can't work it out?

are those the little labourers that run and jump fences when you turn up to watch your new home being built ?

the amount of money i paid for this house . i certainly hope they were getting $3000 per week . after all i paid for it and they built it for me . where else should the money go ? to the jet setting bosses ? or the shareholders ? or to all in equal distribution ?

[Ducati888]

[QUOTE=gtfpv;4789003] .
WHEN YOU GET 1% OF THE POPULATION WITH 98 % OF the wealth QUOTE]

This is often quoted but is erroneous. There is more wealth spread amongst the population now than at any other time in the past. Think back to the servile societies of feudal England where Lords owned everything and the serfs worked for them, for example. The vast majority of people owned nothing other than the clothes they wore. Most people own stuff now.

The facts are that 1% controls just under 40% of the total wealth globally. This figure is mirrored for the USA (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006...ernationalnews. For proof, look here: http://inequality.org/wealth-inequality/

In the UK it's the richest 10% that own 40% of the wealth (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012...ent-wealth-ons)

It's fair to say that Australia is more closely regulated and would mirror the UK more than the USA. I can't find any data for Australia.

With respect, sorry to kill your propaganda with facts gtfpv. They took me nearly two minutes to find on Google. You make some very good points overall though, and I agree with most of what you have said.

[Buntz]

Goodbye Australian Car Manufacturing - I mean Australian Manufacturing - This country doesn't deserve you if it doesn't want you.

[vztrt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clI2-Hs9W-M

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

are those the little labourers that run and jump fences when you turn up to watch your new home being built ?

the amount of money i paid for this house . i certainly hope they were getting $3000 per week . after all i paid for it and they built it for me . where else should the money go ? to the jet setting bosses ? or the shareholders ? or to all in equal distribution ?

I was referring to high rises and that mate.

[jpblue1000]

[QUOTE=Ducati888;4789026]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

.
WHEN YOU GET 1% OF THE POPULATION WITH 98 % OF the wealth QUOTE]

For proof, look here: http://inequality.org/wealth-inequality/

In the UK it's the richest 10% that own 40% of the wealth (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012...ent-wealth-ons)


.

your US statistic may be misread. to me 1% own 35.6% the top five own 63.5 % and the top 20 % of the wealthy own 87.2 percent. leaving Just 12.8 percent of the wealth for the rest of the population 80%.
Have a look at the video for a graphic representation on this page
http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/news...ome-inequality

JP

[gtfpv]

lets please watch this video . with the phrase

" UNIONS WILL BE THE DEATH OF AUSTRALIAN CAR MANUFACTURING " in mind .THE CORPERATES have asked workers to help the company out and take a pay cut . now lets think about what people think about who bleeds off societies money . and we will see UNIONS arent acheiving a fair and equitable system that they want . far far from it . and most people bag themselves and believe thAT THE AVERAGE WORKER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DOWN FALL OF THE SYSTEM .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKK...layer_embedded

[prydey]

Originally Posted by fte50

Yes it is scary no doubt, but how else will the new gen do it when a house is 500K.

you're kidding right?! last i looked, houses didn't start at $500k.

if you are only on a 5 figure income, why would you even contemplate a $500k home unless you had some substantial savings or collateral to go toward it.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

lets please watch this video .

Yeah same video I posted a link too

JP

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by GQ_Smooth

It's making me think in 30-40 years our great grand kids will be moving to China for a better life.

I've often wondered that myself.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

in principle you are right . unions dont always oppose this idea , in fact eba's are the time when employers often negotiate with workers and unions , and often members then will negotiate no pay rise or reduced hours etc .

reduced hours are in effect a pay rise - same pay for less work.

what we're discussing is a reduction in pay/conditions. if you want to profit from the good times, you have to be prepared to accept reduction in the bad, in a *free* market.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

YES GEORGE ORWELL was right , visit a yacht club and see how many employees are members of it, or the elite suburbs of sydney residents ,or seats in 1st class at an airliner and you will very much see he was right . i'm not sure if it's the hardest working people who attain all these goodies .

You really do have a fixation on the pseudo class system.

I know personally only 5 people who are members of a yacht club.

First one is an employee who has never run a business in his life and is not in management.

Second one is running a 1 man band business in semi retirement (he has about 10 vending machines) who worked his way up from labourer through to regional manager by working hard and studying in his own time at his own expense and helping his employer reduce costs while actually employing more people before leaving .

(These two are brothers and have actually been involved in Sydney to Hobart)

Third runs a small second hand car yard specialising in a boutique marque area. Prior to then he was an employee in several large dealerships at low up to mid level.

Forth is a guy I went to Uni with who is an accountant and while he now runs his own show was for many years a small then mid cog in one of the big wheels.

Fifth also now runs his own show after 20 years as an employee. He now employs about 20 people in an ICT business.

Now that I look at it all of them have the same things in common.

They all started from nothing.
They all worked hard and did whatever they could to improve both themselves and the employers situation.
They all learned from their employers and used that knowlege to allow themselves to get ahead.
They all have trained or are training others how to do what they do in order to help them improve their lives.
They are all appreciative of their current or former employers for employing, training and giving them the chance to improve their lives.

None of them constantly complain how it is not fair and it is always someone elses fault when thing do not go their way nor deride those who are above them. They chose to rise up to join rather than try to undermine to pull down.
I will have to confirm but I am fairly sure none of them have ever been in a union.

On the other hand I have been in a union, the ETU. I saw first hand what it was like, what they really stood for and the bullying tactics against employers, non menbers and not surprisingly union members who questioned some of the more radical actions.

If you want to join a yacht club and ride in the pointy bit all you have to do is earn it, just like almost everyone else does.

Instead of whinging and moaning on AFF go and improve your education, get some of the more advanced tickets maybe an A.Dip or even an undergraduate degree.

In life you can choose to be responsible for your situation or you can choose to let someone else run your life for you.

Should you choose the latter whinging and complaining that the ones who chose to run their own lives are doing better than you is not fair will only ever find support from others who choose not to take responsibility for themselves and while they are always noisy never actually do anything positive for themselves, their fellow workers or their employers.

Just so you understand what I am saying here, you do not need to be self employed to do this.

Most managers and higher paid specialists started at entry level the same as everyone else. The difference is that instead of wasting time complaining they looked for opportunities within their employment or outside and took advantage of them.

Life is a grindstone. Whether it sharpens you up or wears you away depends on what you are made of.......