Whats stopping people from buying the Falcon? - Page 24

weairy · 08-02-2012, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brett7777

heck, is that right? are the FPV's the only V8's in the range?
didnt realize there were no XR8's, but come to think of it, all Ive seen over here are XR6's

There was some XR8s earlier on, but yeah. Phased out.

jpd80 · 08-02-2012, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onfire

The simple facts.

Regardless of all the possible opinions, scenarios both hypothetical and/or purely statistical and theories and excuses relating to any which way or how, Ford Australia is struggling to sell the Falcon, with it's direct rival the Holden Commodore taking up nearly 60% of the large vehicle market.

It's easily said, there's a growth in the small & mid sized car departments, yet despite a trend towards smaller and more economical cars, the Holden Commodore still remained in 2nd place for 2011.

This isn't an anti-FG bias opinion. It's fact. Purely fact.

And if you really needed a credible argument as it why figures are down. There's no wagon model, nor is there an XR8 to my knowledge. While marketing is either focused on trade vehicles, the Territory & the Fiesta.

Sales do not necessarily mean profit, GM lead Ford all the way to bankruptcy...

**Polyal** · 08-02-2012, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4RD4TW

Not as much as a Territory ;)

Mate if you think the Falcon is ending then it doesnt matter what the Territory will tow will it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spammy

Who cares - anyone who tows anything more than a box trailer of leaves to the tip went off and bought a Landcruiser/prado/etc about 10 years ago.

That boat has sailed.

The question was what does the falcon do better, wasnt rating the care factor. Dont know where you live but there are plenty of Tez's and Falcons towing around me. Caravans, race trailers, boats etc...never ever seen a mid sizer used for this even if it is rated for it.

The point of a falcon is that it is far more practical than a mondeo. If you can get a model that can have comparable fuel consumption (LPi, EB4, TDI) then I ask the question why would you buy a Mondeo?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

In Europe, the 2.2 TDCI Mondeo is rated at 2,000 Kg but to get the best, you'd need an AWD set up like the new Fusion...
By the time you do all of that, you could stick a V6 diesel in Falcon and offer yet another fuel efficient vehicle..

Or, just offer RWD TDCI Territory at $39,990 drive away, watch them whizz out the door then....
(Something Holden cannot match)

RWD Territory Petrol @ $36,990 and diesel at $39,990 = 2500 sales a month easy..

And what does the Fusion tow?

I agree a V6 TDi falcon would rock..but Ford are playing some weird games with that hand...protecting the I6 numbers perhaps?

I thought a TDi Tez RWD TX was around $40k...it wouldnt be far off and you could probably get it buy shopping around.

onfire · 08-02-2012, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

here's a graph for you (yes, i quote it regularly)

to me this shows that commodore and falcon are suffering the same plight. they are both trending the same. notice over the course of the years the gap between them widens and narrows but overall, they are both heading in the same direction. this is why i don't share the same falcon doom and gloom as many on here.

No one is dismissing the trends away from larger cars, in fact it's largely accepted. Up and down, up and down, it's how the world works. In the last ten years, we've seen financial & economical crashes, housing booms and busts, a drought that gave the country a hiding, looming oil price rises and significant fluctuations since 2002, etc. All these things have a major influence. But it's still largely accepted there's a trend towards smaller cars.

This thread is primarily about the 2011 year and the horrid year the Falcon had, and again as mentioned it's nearest competitor, or now, it's traditional rival outsold the Falcon 2:1, that graph supports what I've already stated, purely the facts. It's not opinion. It points out a decline in large car sales, but it also points out the Falcon had its worse year in 12 years. Again, fact.

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11356086

"
... the Commodore suffered a further ignominy in January by being outsold by its smaller Cruze... the Cruze was a distant third with 2400 sales, ahead of the Commodore (2200).

Meanwhile, the Ford Falcon recorded its weakest sales month in more than 50 years.

Ford sold an estimated 950 Falcons in January – the first time on record the nameplate has dipped into a three-digit tally.

"

Jan, 2012.. Mazda3, Corolla & Cruze all had a good start, as expected. Commodore still outsold the Falcon 2:1 and then some. All fact.

Fireblade · 08-02-2012, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onfire

Ford sold an estimated 950 Falcons in January – the first time on record the nameplate has dipped into a three-digit tally.

That there is the telling fact.

Bossxr8 · 08-02-2012, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkpioe

me too, i disagree entirely. the VE is beautiful, and that view is expressed in the community, and is the reason holden have not needed to update it in 5 years!

The reason Holden haven't updated it is cause they don't have any money to do so, they spent so much money on the billion dollar millstone it left them no money, cause all their money from sales goes to paying off that billion dollars. It has been an absolute millstone around their necks. GM were supposed to build more models off the Zeta platform but they pulled Impala and Buick, leaving Holden to pay it off themselves. VF was supposed to be out in 2010/11 but they had to put it back because they couldn't afford to do it. It's out to 2013/14 now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onfire

The simple facts.

Regardless of all the possible opinions, scenarios both hypothetical and/or purely statistical and theories and excuses relating to any which way or how, Ford Australia is struggling to sell the Falcon, with it's direct rival the Holden Commodore taking up nearly 60% of the large vehicle market.

It's easily said, there's a growth in the small & mid sized car departments, yet despite a trend towards smaller and more economical cars, the Holden Commodore still remained in 2nd place for 2011.

This isn't an anti-FG bias opinion. It's fact. Purely fact.

And if you really needed a credible argument as it why figures are down. There's no wagon model, nor is there an XR8 to my knowledge. While marketing is either focused on trade vehicles, the Territory & the Fiesta.

FG sedan has outsold VE sedan on a number of occasions, its the lack of wagon that is giving Holden such a huge advantage. Similar story with utes, there isn't much difference between them month to month. FG ute actually outsold VE ute twice late last year, and has come within less than 50 or so sales to VE ute a few other times.

Sedan for sedan, and ute for ute FG is pretty close to VE in terms of sales. VE wagon has given Holden a massive free kick, but then again Ford has Territory too.

jpd80 · 08-02-2012, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

And what does the Fusion tow?

No specs available yeat but it's an upgraded Mondeo frame with AWD..

Quote:

I agree a V6 TDi falcon would rock..but Ford are playing some weird games with that hand...protecting the I6 numbers perhaps?

Yep, trying to build numbers
but I wonder what happens if the research starts to say that a diesel is warranted..

Quote:

I thought a TDi Tez RWD TX was around $40k...it wouldnt be far off and you could probably get it buy shopping around.

Yeah, it's up around $43K at the moment, I think Ford can go a bit more aggressive with Territory pricing,
put the I-6 at the same price as XR6 and make the TDCI $3,000 more at $39,990 drive away and watch em go...

weairy · 08-02-2012, 11:06 PM

I personally think Ford might have made a wrong move with the 4cyl Falcon... Kinda taking the approach Nissan did with the Patrol. Downsizing on a bigger car just doesn't seem to do justice. I don't know any of the power figures behind the 4cyl, but I'd personally never buy one...

**Polyal** · 08-02-2012, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yep, trying to build numbers but I wonder what happens if the research starts to say that a diesel is warranted..

See this is the problem, if the TDI tez is not an example of people wanting TDi then I dont know what else is. If they wait another 12/24 months and figure out its a good idea then ill be doing lots of this>>>

I dont think people generally care to much what fuel goes in, how many cylinders it has etc..if it ticks all the boxes and uses less fuel (in the 7-8 range would be great..6's would be crazy) then I think it would do well.

Dont even start me on TDI utes! So much win there, although LPi utes sell ok too but I think private buyers would lean towards TDi.

Brazen · 08-02-2012, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yeah, it's up around $43K at the moment, I think Ford can go a bit more aggressive with Territory pricing,
put the I-6 at the same price as XR6 and make the TDCI $3,000 more at $39,990 drive away and watch em go...

add the 7 seat option and there'll be one in every driveway.

P6LTD351 · 08-02-2012, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The reason Holden haven't updated it is cause they don't have any money to do so, they spent so much money on the billion dollar millstone it left them no money, cause all their money from sales goes to paying off that billion dollars. It has been an absolute millstone around their necks. GM were supposed to build more models off the Zeta platform but they pulled Impala and Buick, leaving Holden to pay it off themselves. VF was supposed to be out in 2010/11 but they had to put it back because they couldn't afford to do it. It's out to 2013/14 now.

Very true. I remember when the VE was first released, Holden was saying that model cycles will only be 5-6 years. That's complete model cycles i.e. AU - BF, VT - VZ, XD - XF etc. That hasn't eventuated as it looks like the VE - VF will have a life cycle of at least 10 years.

Auslandau · 08-02-2012, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yeah, it's up around $43K at the moment, I think Ford can go a bit more aggressive with Territory pricing,
put the I-6 at the same price as XR6 and make the TDCI $3,000 more at $39,990 drive away and watch em go...

They have already though? Petrol Territorys starting from $36,990 and Diesel Territorys starting from $39,990! Brand new drive away ..... 2011 plated but still.

P6LTD351 · 08-02-2012, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auslandau

They have already though? Petrol Territorys starting from $36,990 and Diesel Territorys starting from $39,990! Brand new drive away ..... 2011 plated but still.

That's a lot of car for the money. They should fly off the shelves.

Spammy · 09-02-2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Not agreeing sorry .... Yes there is a place for cheap nasty crap ..... Macca;s has shown us the way on this ..... but in business I would rather be number 10 but have the quality and in the end, the profits to go with it. Is Mazda playing out to this theory? Better check to see how being number 1 = profit in the car industry.
.

Over the longer term, cars are a numbers game with economies of scale being a big factor and unless you are Porsche or Rolls or Bentley, then the quality only angle will not get you far. (note both Bentley and Rolls made no money for years and got sold to volume manufacters and Porsche was close to bankrupcy)

And it's hard to build an arguement that the Falcon will sell because of its percived build quailty.

Falcon competes (or at least used to compete) in the mass market, knock them together, knock the price down and sell 'um world.

SB.1 · 09-02-2012, 04:16 PM

Coming into this late but traditional fleet sellers like Falcon & Commodore must be suffering from fleets moving to smaller cars also. However, that doesn't explain why Commodore is still up there - maybe it's the wagon - also a big fleet seller? Fleets will not go for a Terri petrol because of the fuel, but maybe a Terri Diesel? Under $40K for a TX Diesel may get a few.

jpd80 · 09-02-2012, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auslandau

They have already though? Petrol Territorys starting from $36,990 and Diesel Territorys starting from $39,990! Brand new drive away ..... 2011 plated but still.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb2monty

That's a lot of car for the money. They should fly off the shelves.

Wow.... you know, Ford is coming out of the boxes quick this year, I wouldn't be surprised to see those prices continue.
There's not too many SUVs than can touch Territory at that price, especially the siz cylinder diesel...

It's amazing what's possible when major decisions hinge on demonstrating sales potential...

johnydep · 09-02-2012, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB.1

Coming into this late but traditional fleet sellers like Falcon & Commodore must be suffering from fleets moving to smaller cars also. However, that doesn't explain why Commodore is still up there - maybe it's the wagon - also a big fleet seller? Fleets will not go for a Terri petrol because of the fuel, but maybe a Terri Diesel? Under $40K for a TX Diesel may get a few.

How will the Carbon Tax affect them?

Ford and Holden can throw in the most economical engine available, but the competition will do the same in a smaller car. Large companies looking at cutting down on their Carbon foot print will look at both options, but we can all guess which will win at the end of the day; small vehicle + economical engine = less carbon tax.

Joe5619 · 09-02-2012, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnydep

How will the Carbon Tax affect them?

Ford and Holden can throw in the most economical engine available, but the competition will do the same in a smaller car. Large companies looking at cutting down on their Carbon foot print will look at both options, but we can all guess which will win at the end of the day; small vehicle + economical engine = less carbon tax.

Do companies have to pay Carbon tax on there car fleets as well???

Spammy · 09-02-2012, 04:48 PM

Only from reading this thread did I realise the Xr8 is no longer available - big error. To not have an affordable V8 in a local Aussie car sort of defeats the reason to have a large Aussie car.

I know the turbo is prob faster, lighter, whatever - but V8 is the backbone of the Falcon and Commodore fanbase.

Brazen · 09-02-2012, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB.1

Coming into this late but traditional fleet sellers like Falcon & Commodore must be suffering from fleets moving to smaller cars also. However, that doesn't explain why Commodore is still up there - maybe it's the wagon - also a big fleet seller? Fleets will not go for a Terri petrol because of the fuel, but maybe a Terri Diesel? Under $40K for a TX Diesel may get a few.

Falcon and Commodore have always been close, so why the biggest difference in history??

Wagon and V8.

Falcon claws some sales back by being a newer offering, being cheaper and by having a dedicated LPG, but the wagon and V8 combination slaughter the Falcon.

Commodore sells about 110% more than Falcon a month.

xe351 · 09-02-2012, 05:03 PM

having not read the last 24 pages, the reason i see for falcon not selling well is:
- product perception
- too big for the average person, needs to be mondeo size
- the suv fad
- too heavy
- cheaper imports
- no wags
- brand experience
- product perception

Joe5619 · 09-02-2012, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weairy

I personally think Ford might have made a wrong move with the 4cyl Falcon... Kinda taking the approach Nissan did with the Patrol. Downsizing on a bigger car just doesn't seem to do justice. I don't know any of the power figures behind the 4cyl, but I'd personally never buy one...

I suggust you take a look, you might by very very surprised.. But for this reason, I think it could be a hard sell for Ford. I just hope the marketing department is up to it!!

Joe5619 · 09-02-2012, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spammy

Only from reading this thread did I realise the Xr8 is no longer available - big error. To not have an affordable V8 in a local Aussie car sort of defeats the reason to have a large Aussie car.

I know the turbo is prob faster, lighter, whatever - but V8 is the backbone of the Falcon and Commodore fanbase.

You can buy one of the best V8's offered in any car in the country in a Falcon. It just does not have an XR8 badge on it!! But it is a Falcon!!

prydey · 09-02-2012, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Falcon and Commodore have always been close, so why the biggest difference in history??

Wagon and V8.

Falcon claws some sales back by being a newer offering, being cheaper and by having a dedicated LPG, but the wagon and V8 combination slaughter the Falcon.

Commodore sells about 110% more than Falcon a month.

quick someone send a memo to ford. ford forum member knows more than they do!!

Spammy · 09-02-2012, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

You can buy one of the best V8's offered in any car in the country in a Falcon. It just does not have an XR8 badge on it!! But it is a Falcon!!

But is it only a few grand more than the 6 cly model? The Commo SS sells by the truck load to those who want HSV performance for not much more than base model pricing.

Spammy · 09-02-2012, 05:32 PM

While we are on the topic, what happened to the FPV turbo models?

Smoke Pursuit · 09-02-2012, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

quick someone send a memo to ford. ford forum member knows more than they do!!

Wouldn't be hard trust me...

Problem for Ford is they have no $$$, without $$$ how can you move forward in employing talented people who actually know what people want...

Brazen · 09-02-2012, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

quick someone send a memo to ford. ford forum member knows more than they do!!

Last year they sold 18,000 Falcons. They are smart.

But I get Im a scmuck though.

Smoke Pursuit · 09-02-2012, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Last year they sold 18,000 Falcons. They are smart.

Try dealing with them...

anto · 09-02-2012, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spammy

But is it only a few grand more than the 6 cly model? The Commo SS sells by the truck load to those who want HSV performance for not much more than base model pricing.

this is true in my case. I have nothing in the range that appeals to me in this category and price range. Can quite afford an FPV just now but something in the SS price range would be perfect. It all leaves me looking for a low Km FG XR8 5.4 with the right color and options sadly... whats a bloke to do.