Vfacts December 2022

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by kypez

European cars sell the most in Europe and the US. Both have EV mandates. They'll be safe. Now even Ford, GM and Chrysler are in on EVs. I don't see it being their downfall.

Maybe in Australia but we're a rounding error for most of those manufacturers.

Toyota will hurt without US and Europe in the future. Australia isn't big enough for them either.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

None of these countries have the infrastructure or power generation to support a switch to 20-30% of EV vehicles, let alone 50%+ by 2030. Where's the power generation and infrastructure coming from to support this?

How many EU countries have told their EV owners to cut back on transport and restrict charging due to lack of power?

The era of oil and gas will be around for decades to come when people realise the fraud being perpetrated on them.

[csv8]

The problem with Ford is they have nothing under $30k. They used to have Fiesta under $20k! and Focus around $25k. Thats why Chinese cars are selling. People are buying on what they can afford.
My daughter bought a Kia Cerato Sport with safety pack for $28k drive away. Ford are locked into a Ranger is it. But they have been advertising Puma. The new HiLux Rogue is $80k!!

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Yer nah, with the overall numbers they sell nationally service is the key and dealers provide the end product and link.
If it was a struggling brand sure you could see it that way not them.
Staggering numbers tbh considering the challenges and dominate like the holden ford days of old but with 3/4 models in sales mix.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Service agents yes, but they are pushing for dealers simply to become a fixed fee delivery service. The bigger capital cities will have a Toyota warehouse for car collection for online purchases sooner than later, they just need to get the back end organised which they are doing as shown above!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by csv8

The problem with Ford is they have nothing under $30k. They used to have Fiesta under $20k! and Focus around $25k. Thats why Chinese cars are selling. People are buying on what they can afford.
My daughter bought a Kia Cerato Sport with safety pack for $28k drive away. Ford are locked into a Ranger is it. But they have been advertising Puma. The new HiLux Rogue is $80k!!

My favorite part is how everyone abandoned the micro/small segment cars because 'there is no profit in them', it just funneled the sales in this segment to Kia/Mazda who stayed in and the prices went up $5000-$10,000

The price of the Mazda 2 is an absolute joke, its just under $30K for something thats hardly changed mechanically in the past 15 years.

[anobserver]

“One of the bonuses of a lot of the automotive brands closing down, was we were able to cherry pick a lot of the best staff from Toyota, Ford and Holden, which has allowed us to become the biggest and best automotive business in Australia in our eyes."

- WAG

Translated, a lot that public money we spent subsidising automotive design and construction skills for everyday holdens, fords and Toyotas has found its way into six figure megatrucks for cashed up tradies and fifo workers.

Yeah, i know fleet buyers diversified into suvs and utes, and novated leasing for private buyers allowed them to buy anything. But still...

We threw away manufacturing instead of negotiating for the factories to build cars the market actually want to buy.

The button plan was too sucessful. The policy sought to reduce the number of manufacturers and it did. Both sides of politics were complicit.

Rant ends.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by kypez

Tesla isn't a JV. Everyone else is.

With Europe committed to electric, it would seem the Chinese might be kind enough to supply our addiction to ICE in the future and they'll become the dominant player in Australia.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

And the tesla spokesman just has to chime in, like clockwork. Is all about defending the chinese now that tesla send their cars here.

The only reason Tesla isn’t a jv is because the ccp changed the rules on mandatory joint ventures before they set up there. There is no way the other manufacturers would have done it if they didn’t have to. It just allowed the scummy chinese to easily steal IP. They are encouraged to do it. I’ve heard stories from our engineers about them asking for data they are not entitled to because their managers ask them to do it. It’s corporate culture for them.

[Big_Daz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

My favorite part is how everyone abandoned the micro/small segment cars because 'there is no profit in them', it just funneled the sales in this segment to Kia/Mazda who stayed in and the prices went up $5000-$10,000

The price of the Mazda 2 is an absolute joke, its just under $30K for something thats hardly changed mechanically in the past 15 years.

To be fair, the top of the range Mazda 2 just tops $30k ($30,100 D/a). The range starts at $24k, but I get your point....

I was at Mazda during the week catching up with a school mate who is a salesman, and had a look at the CX3 in the showroom. My mother has had one since new in 2016 and looking at the new one, apart from the steering wheel it was bloody identical.... in nearly 6 years... Yet they still sell plenty of the damn things...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by csv8

The problem with Ford is they have nothing under $30k. They used to have Fiesta under $20k! and Focus around $25k. Thats why Chinese cars are selling. People are buying on what they can afford.
My daughter bought a Kia Cerato Sport with safety pack for $28k drive away. Ford are locked into a Ranger is it. But they have been advertising Puma. The new HiLux Rogue is $80k!!

Hyundai/Kia make virtually no profit on their worldwide operations,
it’s only a matter of time before they stop chasing market share and
start charging more to safe guard their viability.

All the brands that are struggling in Australia are going to start looking
at costs, so we could see a big clean out in the next few years…

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Hyundai/Kia make virtually no profit on their worldwide operations,
it’s only a matter of time before they stop chasing market share and
start charging more to safe guard their viability.

All the brands that are struggling in Australia are going to start looking
at costs, so we could see a big clean out in the next few years…

Promise.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

And the tesla spokesman just has to chime in, like clockwork. Is all about defending the chinese now that tesla send their cars here.



The only reason Tesla isn’t a jv is because the ccp changed the rules on mandatory joint ventures before they set up there. There is no way the other manufacturers would have done it if they didn’t have to. It just allowed the scummy chinese to easily steal IP. They are encouraged to do it. I’ve heard stories from our engineers about them asking for data they are not entitled to because their managers ask them to do it. It’s corporate culture for them.

And all the reasons you have mentioned is why Tesla didn't go there in a JV and the Govt doesn't take any of their profit. The people there get employment though which I'm all for. I don't hate the Chinese nor harbour any bigotry towards them.

Not a Tesla spokesman, just someone who doesn't twist facts to suit their agenda.

Also funny that you didn't bang on about Chinese when Ford sourced the ZF from China... Such a level argument you put forward

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

My favorite part is how everyone abandoned the micro/small segment cars because 'there is no profit in them', it just funneled the sales in this segment to Kia/Mazda who stayed in and the prices went up $5000-$10,000



The price of the Mazda 2 is an absolute joke, its just under $30K for something thats hardly changed mechanically in the past 15 years.

Can only make a car for sub $20k from China it would seem. The Koreans and before them, the Japanese, made the cheaper cars initially. They just frog boiled the market. We are now seeing the Chinese enter and they'll do the same. Heck, they brought a $92k garbage EV ute that people are buying.

The temperature has only just started to be raised.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Big_Daz

To be fair, the top of the range Mazda 2 just tops $30k ($30,100 D/a). The range starts at $24k, but I get your point....

I was at Mazda during the week catching up with a school mate who is a salesman, and had a look at the CX3 in the showroom. My mother has had one since new in 2016 and looking at the new one, apart from the steering wheel it was bloody identical.... in nearly 6 years... Yet they still sell plenty of the damn things...

Was $16,300 drive away in 2009 when I priced one up and ended up with my WS Fiesta for $18K DA

Yes I'm aware that is years ago, but there's no sub $20K car on the market - except the MG3, which has about the same power and torque as its equivalents today.

That segment itself is a joke, the only people leading mechanical changes in the past 15 years is Kia with the Picanto GT and the Kia Rio GT having turbo 3 cylinder engines - everyone else is doing the same thing as 15 years ago.

Except Ford who introduced the 1L Ecoboost in the WZ Fiesta then subsequently discontinued the entire car

Also for reference - we've got Chinese Cars, Ford Ranger VFacts discussion, Ford Ranger 4x2 Sales, John Cadogan and Tesla VFacts sales figures on our Bingo card with only 2 pages.

[kevino]

You got ripped Franco
In 2012 we bought a powershift Fiesta Sedan for 16500 drive away.

Yeah the na motors in the Kia Rio Picanto Stonic Hyundai Venue Mazda Two ASX are just motors with the same outputs power and torque wise as twelve years ago. Just slugs oh and add mg zs mg3 and Suzuki Swift / Ignis/ Vitara with the na motors.
And the i30 Kia Cerato Sportage na motors as well

[danzvtil]

Have cars really gone up in price or is it just inflation. Granted a Mazda 2,Suzuki swift,Kia cerato used to be under $20k but now start at $27k on road.
Compare a current MG3 at $18990 drive away to a 20yo $13990DA Hyundai excel, 5k difference, but has auto trans, 5dr, power windows, alloys, all the airbags, 7 yr warranty. It REALLY hasn’t gone up in 20 years. And what is your wage now compared to then?

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Have cars really gone up in price or is it just inflation. ?

Most of it's Covid Tax If the Much Mooted Recession Hits us & Dealers go from having Waiting Lists to Having Excess Stock.. There will be Big Re-adjustment in Prices I predict..!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Have cars really gone up in price or is it just inflation. Granted a Mazda 2,Suzuki swift,Kia cerato used to be under $20k but now start at $27k on road.
Compare a current MG3 at $18990 drive away to a 20yo $13990DA Hyundai excel, 5k difference, but has auto trans, 5dr, power windows, alloys, all the airbags, 7 yr warranty. It REALLY hasn’t gone up in 20 years. And what is your wage now compared to then?

Well if you look at $16,300 in 2009 and use the RBA inflation calculator for 2021, it works out to be about $21,000 is the 2021 equivalent of 2009's $16,300.

So yes I'd say at $25,300 DA for the povvo spec Mazda 2 model its not just inflation its more creep because lack of competition, its also had virtually no development under the bonnet since then - 2009 Mazda 2 was 82KW/160NM torque and the current Mazda 2 is 82KW/144NM.

Remember in 2012 there was the VW Up! which was $13,990 DA as well.

[Syndrome]

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-new...sults-for-2022

Year end sales for Chinese brands:

MG : 49,582
GWM : 25,042
LDV : 16,269
BYD : 2,113

Total : 93,006

Total market : 1,081,429

=> 8.6% of all cars were the above four brands.

If we add Tesla to this calculation (they are also Chinese made but not a Chinese brand)

Tesla : 19,594

Total : 112,600

=> 10.4% of all cars sold in Australia in 2022 were made in China.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-new...sults-for-2022

Year end sales for Chinese brands:

MG : 49,582
GWM : 25,042
LDV : 16,269
BYD : 2,113

Total : 93,006

Total market : 1,081,429

=> 8.6% of all cars were the above four brands.

If we add Tesla to this calculation (they are also Chinese made but not a Chinese brand)

Tesla : 19,594

Total : 112,600

=> 10.4% of all cars sold in Australia in 2022 were made in China.

And beyond that there are more...



Eg. Volvo XC60 is out of China for example. Probably closer 15 % of our market comes out of China.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Ford -
Ford Escape – 129
Ford Everest – 926
Ford Fiesta – 4
Ford Focus – 8
Ford Mustang – 88
Ford Puma – 148
Ford Ranger 4x2 – 550
Ford Ranger 4x4 – 4113
Ford Transit Bus – 0
Ford Transit Custom – 197
Ford Transit Heavy – 2
Ford total – 6165


Take Ranger / Everest Out 5589 Total = nearly 91% of their sales comes out of 2 products. While they are good at what they do with Ranger this must be concerning, they will not want to lose traction with it at any point.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by Smoke Pursuit

And beyond that there are more...

Eg. Volvo XC60 is out of China for example. Probably closer 15 % of our market comes out of China.

How many Volvo XC60 were sold in Australia in 2022?

[naddis01]

Japan: 330,061
Thailand: 245,608
Korea: 159,244
China: 122,845
Germany: 41,931

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by kypez

And all the reasons you have mentioned is why Tesla didn't go there in a JV and the Govt doesn't take any of their profit. The people there get employment though which I'm all for. I don't hate the Chinese nor harbour any bigotry towards them.

Not a Tesla spokesman, just someone who doesn't twist facts to suit their agenda.

Also funny that you didn't bang on about Chinese when Ford sourced the ZF from China... Such a level argument you put forward

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

You mean when ZF in germany stopped making the 6HP there and the only choice they gave Ford was to send them ones from China for 2 years? Yeah solid argument there, vs a whole car built there. Real einstein comparison. It was even funnier when you melted down over it and you claimed you knew who i was because your giant ego couldn’t handle it.

If Ford sourced cars from china i would be fuming. Some people might be cool with sending money to support the communist regime that continually tries to bully us, but i’m not. You’re only cool with it because Tesla cult.

Originally Posted by Smoke Pursuit

Ford -
Ford Escape – 129
Ford Everest – 926
Ford Fiesta – 4
Ford Focus – 8
Ford Mustang – 88
Ford Puma – 148
Ford Ranger 4x2 – 550
Ford Ranger 4x4 – 4113
Ford Transit Bus – 0
Ford Transit Custom – 197
Ford Transit Heavy – 2
Ford total – 6165


Take Ranger / Everest Out 5589 Total = nearly 91% of their sales comes out of 2 products. While they are good at what they do with Ranger this must be concerning, they will not want to lose traction with it at any point.

Why, they don’t have a factory here any more to keep running, so it’s not the same pressure they felt in the past with local production. And the profit levels are probably the highest they have ever been, so even if sales did drop off a bit that’s no issue. Thailand can send extra cars to just about anywhere in asia.

[Franco Cozzo]

Also am I missing something or are there still Focus ST and Fiesta ST available given they're popping up single figures here and there?

[kevino]

Re Focus st Fiesta st there was the odd one around. When I picked up my Puma on 1/12 there was a Focus ST in the showroom sold so that may have contributed one to these numbers.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Also am I missing something or are there still Focus ST and Fiesta ST available given they're popping up single figures here and there?

They were still getting small numbers in when the announcement was made. The cars showing in vfacts would be those cars. From memory it was something like 30 odd of each?

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Hyundai/Kia make virtually no profit on their worldwide operations,
it’s only a matter of time before they stop chasing market share and
start charging more to safe guard their viability.

It's fair to say this is already well under way

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by naddis01

China: 122,845

I am interested to see where the 10,000 came from which are not in my list posted earlier in this thread.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

I am interested to see where the 10,000 came from which are not in my list posted earlier in this thread.

Volvo sold over 10000 cars. How many are from China, I don't know. What about Polestar, where are they made?

Do the GWM numbers include Haval?

[anobserver]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

How many Volvo XC60 were sold in Australia in 2022?

In 2020, about 2800, just less than the 3100 xc40s. But since then....

Total volvo sales in 2022 were 10715, with xc40 being 5119 of those.

In the over70k toorak tractor segment, the xc60 must have been outsold by the x5, the merc and defender. Meaning it must have sold less than the 1693 defenders.

[Sprintey]

Little bit of news from the US.

It seems they are going to redo tariffs unless you make 85% or so locally, ie domestic production. Sounds like how Australia had it's car industry back in 1970!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG1q9gdxDq0

There's also 8K rebate or so on domestically produced electric cars?

They are protecting their industry, old school style. It's the new (old) way of the world. We could do the same with Toyota, Ford and Hol... oh wait