Is all wheel drive necessary or a gimmick for most cars?

[madmatty]

i have a sixpot liberty,had a few subarus over the years also have had heaps of v8 falcons too,i sugest a drive of a awd as the are very good in slippery conditions.they do become a bit undeersteery when pushed hard.try turning right or left for that matter from standing start in the wet or dry even at full or high throttle percentage in a rear wheel drive and you will loose the rear and fight to stay straight,a front wheel drive will not turn at all if the wheels are spinning(i owned a tx3 turbo) but a awd will just grip and go,the subaru systems only engages awd when it detects slip thus 95% of the time it is front wheel drive saving fuel as there is more mecahnical drag with full time fwd.bottom line is my liberty with 180kw will eat my 300kw falcon in the wet,of the mark or in tight corners.dont kock it till you try it.

[JamesR]

i have a my07 liberty gtb.
~190kw, 320nm? torque, 2.5 turbo, 5sp auto.
average 10-11l/100kms and it gets as low as 8l/100km on highway.
it handles better than the FG XR6 and VE SV6's i have driven.
and it handles quite well off road too!

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by madmatty

subaru systems only engages awd when it detects slip thus 95% of the time it is front wheel drive saving fuel as there is more mecahnical drag with full time fwd.

There are four different AWD systems within Subaru models
Only the 4EAT does that with a 90/10 split

Centre Diff + LSD (5M/6M) ie manual Legacy/Outback/Forester 2.5/GT/3.0 = 50/50

Active Torque Split MPT (4EAT) ie 2.5 auto Legacy/Outback/Forester = 90/10 until slip is detected then variable or 1st/2nd manually selected then 50/50

Driver’s Control Centre Diff (STi with 6M) ie WRX STi = user chooser

Variable Torque Distribution and Vehicle Dynamics Control (5EAT) ie auto GT/3.0 Legacy/Outback = varies with model year, used to be 40/60

[OzJavelin]

I doubt most of us Aussies can really comment with must authority on this .. Probably ask people living in snow country in europe or north america about AWD
AMC was kept on life support in the late seventies selling AWD cars, including coupes, sedans, wagons to Americans in snow country who didn't t want full-blown FWDs, but actually needed AWD for everyday driving.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by cs123

I've spoken to people who talk about how great their AWD Subies are. One was telling the story of how quickly it pulled up in the rain when he had to emergency stop.......

Vindication of Subaru Australias marketing decision some time back to only import AWD models. I believe FWD Subarus are available and common in other markets?

It's caused them quite the conundrum though when deciding whether or not to bring over the BRZ, as its RWD - the only non AWD Subaru you can buy in Australia. But its their sports car, built to handle, but not AWD... How confusing...

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

AWD's can get you into trouble quicker than a RWD. It is very easy to overcorrect an AWD, because all 4 wheels are pulling the car, rather than 2.

Are they necessary? No idea. Fuel economy....No idea, as I have never owned one, nor had interest in owning one.

The bit highlighted in blue makes you first sentece redundant...

AWD getting a person into trouble more then RWD?


What are you smoking....

[mik]

not much point to them if your just doing the harry suburban thing around the suburbs, probably some very slight advantage if your coming down through the frosty hills in winter on a daily basis, but with all the electronic safety gear on modern cars, you`d be pretty stiff to get a rwd into trouble if your driving to the conditions imo.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by Matty4

I watched a bloke recently struggle with a new RWD diesel Territory to pull his ski boat up a gravel ramp. My AWD just drove straight up, my boat was a good 2-300kg heavier too. For me, it is necessary.
My old Suby twin turbo B4 was awesome in the wet, a bit like John Daly, just grip it and rip it. No wheelspin. Good fun.

AWD TMK has shorter ratio diff ?? Which would help here..

[BDA074]

I have owned a Subaru AWD and currently own a V8.
My opinion only but in the wet, the AWD is unmatched.
Would own a Falcon V8 AWD in a flash! Might have to settle with an AWD Taurus down the track...

Remember the AWD Nissan Godzilla in the Touring Car Championship? So good they got banned...

[Nikked]

Want to know about AWD? take the drive belt of an AWD R/C car and try to run it in RWD mode....

[Bossxr8]

In gutless cars like base Imprezas its a total WOFTAM, just adds weight and increases fuel consumption. There's a reason Subaru's chew more fuel than equivalent FWD models from other manufacturers, and cost more too.

Most AWD's understeer too much too, so it doesn't really help handling. Its only good if its a RWD biased system like a Porsche Turbo or GTR, and equivalent cars that have a shed load of grunt that AWD helps get to the ground.

Stability control has basically wiped out any advantage AWD might have had in terms of safety in the wet.

[69Mach1]

Back in '05 I was choosing between a Honda Accord Euro and Subaru Liberty. I test drove both on the same rainy day. I took them both along the same patch of road.

I test drove the Honda first and decided to make a hard right on a roundabout, straight away I got some understeer, once the speed washed off I booted it and the dash started flashing with traction control and whatever other electronic aids exisited on this model.....craaaap!

Next the Liberty, same roundabout, same approximate speed, the thing just seemed to stick, went round, no traction control and simply accelerated out of the corner. Needless to say I bought the Liberty....much more a driver's car IMO.

Now I cant say I really push my cars to the limit day to day but I reckon AWD has saved me more than once in daily driving especially in the wet.

Also, in the wet, off the lights I have smoked many V8s and that's with the NA version.

Sure they might use a bit more fuel but it's a small price to pay for the traction/handling offered by AWD.

I've been a Ford man for many years but I've bought another Subaru since and can honestly say they are a good thing technically....styling not so great!

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

In gutless cars like base Imprezas its a total WOFTAM, just adds weight and increases fuel consumption. There's a reason Subaru's chew more fuel than equivalent FWD models from other manufacturers, and cost more too.

Most AWD's understeer too much too, so it doesn't really help handling. Its only good if its a RWD biased system like a Porsche Turbo or GTR, and equivalent cars that have a shed load of grunt that AWD helps get to the ground.

Stability control has basically wiped out any advantage AWD might have had in terms of safety in the wet.

Bollocks.
As is this whole thread.
All Wheel Drive gives you Drive through All Wheels. In vehicles and scenarios where you need it, that’s obviously an advantage.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I think it's safe to summarise as you have no idea, as you have never owned one, so how about keeping your uninformed opinions to yourself.

"...get you into trouble quicker than a RWD."

I don't think so.

Making comments you obviously have no idea about, when it comes to me.

So I'll leave it there, as you're not worth getting banned over.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Nikked

The bit highlighted in blue makes you first sentece redundant...

AWD getting a person into trouble more then RWD?


What are you smoking....

You get used to driving a RWD, and what to do when trouble strikes. Apply that to a AWD and see how much drama occurs.

Yeah, never owned one, but driven 1 or 2.

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

I doubt most of us Aussies can really comment with must authority on this .. Probably ask people living in snow country in europe or north america about AWD
AMC was kept on life support in the late seventies selling AWD cars, including coupes, sedans, wagons to Americans in snow country who didn't t want full-blown FWDs, but actually needed AWD for everyday driving.

In the early / mid ninties I spent a lot of time in Sweden / Finland, 99.9999% of the cars were front wheel drive which worked well in snow/ice. I assume there are a lot more AWD cars now.

What is interesting is that most Mercedes in New York/ Boston and surrounding areas are the 4 matic versions of the sedans ie AWD C class/E class/ S class etc. Whereas in LA you only see 2wd Mercs

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

You get used to driving a RWD, and what to do when trouble strikes. Apply that to a AWD and see how much drama occurs.

.

really?

[Franco Cozzo]

Well, I guess you could say is RWD necessary or a gimmick? I'd point towards the latter, FWD has benefits, and it can be made to handle.

If you start pushing into torque steer territory, you could have a sports model with AWD and rear bias.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Spammy

really?

May I suggest watching rally cars closely how they handle and apply that to my statement.

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

May I suggest watching rally cars closely how they handle and apply that to my statement.

I was thinking rally cars when I made my statement. I seriously can't make sense of your posts.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

May I suggest watching rally cars closely how they handle and apply that to my statement.

What?

How rally cars show supreme handling on all types of surface?

How they can stick there rear end into a corner, and make it out (ie, reverse entry?)


How otherwise free turning wheels can have tourqe applied and assist in getting power to the ground?

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

AWD's can get you into trouble quicker than a RWD. It is very easy to overcorrect an AWD, because all 4 wheels are pulling the car, rather than 2.

Are they necessary? No idea. Fuel economy....No idea, as I have never owned one, nor had interest in owning one.

i can see your point. an awd car can bite big time
while an awd will give better grip in probably all applications once in trouble it requires different disciplines to get out of it
in some cases rear wheel drive can be better, just as front wheel drive can be as well

the driver still needs to respect an awd - there have been many wrx's and evo's that have bitten the dust, even though the owner felt invincible moments before

[superfly]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I think it's safe to summarise as you have no idea, as you have never owned one, so how about keeping your uninformed opinions to yourself.

"...get you into trouble quicker than a RWD."

I don't think so.

^^ I agree with this.

Originally Posted by madmatty

the subaru systems only engages awd when it detects slip thus 95% of the time it is front wheel drive saving fuel as there is more mecahnical drag with full time fwd..

My old 1993 Liberty RS, old MY99 WRX and my wife's MY01 WRX all have 50/50 AWD systems. Only time the system 'fails' is when you only have opposite wheels on the ground (e.g. front left and right rear). Then the other 2 wheels just spin.

Originally Posted by svo supporter

You get used to driving a RWD, and what to do when trouble strikes. Apply that to a AWD and see how much drama occurs.

Yeah, never owned one, but driven 1 or 2.

I've owned turbo Subaru's since 1997 and it's safe to say that they are way easier to drive than a powerful RWD. I remember renting a VN Commodore as a 21 year old (owned a small FWD car at the time). Gave it a boot full around a corner in the wet and fishtailed half way down the road.
But yes, if you're used to a RWD car, then of course you know how to drive it as I'm sure the back has stepped out more than once.
For the average punter FWD or AWD is easier to drive than RWD when things go wrong.

[superfly]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

the driver still needs to respect an awd - there have been many wrx's and evo's that have bitten the dust, even though the owner felt invincible moments before

Just like there have been heaps of RWD cars that have bitten the dust. Drive like a tool and I'm sure things don't end well regardless of FWD, RWD or AWD.

[turbodewd]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

In gutless cars like base Imprezas its a total WOFTAM, just adds weight and increases fuel consumption. There's a reason Subaru's chew more fuel than equivalent FWD models from other manufacturers, and cost more too.

Most AWD's understeer too much too, so it doesn't really help handling. Its only good if its a RWD biased system like a Porsche Turbo or GTR, and equivalent cars that have a shed load of grunt that AWD helps get to the ground.

Stability control has basically wiped out any advantage AWD might have had in terms of safety in the wet.

This is my point. For run-of-the-mill modest sedans its just not that good. You pay a penalty all the time with worse fuel economy while on those odd days when it rains youre a smidge safer. If you live urban the Liberty AWD is largely useless (but nice!) and you cop it in the fuel bill.

[Spammy]

Some may remember when Subi WRXs first came out the police were ordered not to chase them in wet weather. Why would that be?

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by superfly

Just like there have been heaps of RWD cars that have bitten the dust. Drive like a tool and I'm sure things don't end well regardless of FWD, RWD or AWD.

i have never suggested anything different - all 3 have good points, the awd is probably the best for grip, but when being a tool, a rwd can be easier to bring back into line
however, more often than not, the tool that gets into trouble has no idea on how to get out of it, no matter which wheels are driving

[BHDOGS]

on australian roads awd is pointless going off road another story tho

[superfly]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i have never suggested anything different - all 3 have good points, the awd is probably the best for grip, but when being a tool, a rwd can be easier to bring back into line

This I don't agree with. I believe to the inexperienced an AWD (or even a FWD) is easier to bring in line as they understeer.

[chevypower]

I wouldn't worry about AWD if the worst condition you will drive on is wet asphalt. But AWD can really save the day on snow, ice, and oil slicks, especially when it is unexpected.