Ford Australia wants pay freeze and two-tier wages

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by fte50

Here Here.
It seems modern man has forgotten the moral principals our forefathers fought so hard for, and the main one was 'Equality'.
An employee has a vested interest to protect/honor their employer TO A DEGREE, however should they be punished for the wrong doing of management who have clearly failed to predict/respond to changing markets, products, technologies etc?. After all, it is their job (managements) that should bear the responsibility for all. Its the decisions they make which steers the company in either direction.
Sure, they take a wage freeze, though its slightly different being frozen on say $50k versus $125+k.
Remember, no major gave you a pay rise coz they liked you - it was faught for. out: out: out:

Thats one thing that troubles me about Ford. The management, product planners and sales and marketing teams are never held responsible when they make mistakes ie. the failure of the FG Falcon launch. It took Marin's appointment to slowly start to turn it around, but when the FG tanked early on it was the employees on the plant floor that suffered and got laid off, while those directly responsible for failing to read the market, and the pathetic job they did in selling and advertising the product went untouched. The people who make the wrong calls are the ones who should be held responsible for their mistakes. Tom Gorman was never held responsible for his job of totally mis-managing the company and nearly sending it to the wall, if anything he was actually rewarded by keeping his job for what I believe was the longest time period that FoA has ever had the one president for. He wasn't even sacked for the poor job he did, he left on his own accord, although he may have been pushed, not that the company would ever admit that.

Bill Osbourne tried but he was handed the poison chalice from Tom Gorman and couldn't clean up the mess. At least Marin has that one thing Geoff Polites always talked about, passion. Its amazing what happens when you have someone in charge who has a real passion for the place. Hopefully Detroit will learn that next time they appoint a president for FoA.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

when the FG tanked early on it was the employees on the plant floor that suffered and got laid off

Thats the obvious downside of being at the bottom of the food chain. The solution to that would be to have gotten different qualifications etc and choose a different career path.

while those directly responsible for failing to read the market

Given that the FG was in development for YEARS before release, when it became clear the market was becoming unfavourable for large cars, what would you expect Ford to do? Turn it into a hybrid 3mths before launch?

If I was able to read the market that many years in advance, I most certainly wouldnt be working for Ford would I? I'd be in oil futures....

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by b0son

Thats the obvious downside of being at the bottom of the food chain. The solution to that would be to have gotten different qualifications etc and choose a different career path.



Given that the FG was in development for YEARS before release, when it became clear the market was becoming unfavourable for large cars, what would you expect Ford to do? Turn it into a hybrid 3mths before launch?

If I was able to read the market that many years in advance, I most certainly wouldnt be working for Ford would I? I'd be in oil futures....

In terms of marketing for the FG is couldn't have missed its target more if they tried. I wasn't referring to the actual car itself, there's nothing wrong with it, it was the sales and marketing that were a failure. If you have a superior product to the opposition and they smash you in sales you have failed.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

In terms of marketing for the FG is couldn't have missed its target more if they tried. I wasn't referring to the actual car itself, there's nothing wrong with it, it was the sales and marketing that were a failure. If you have a superior product to the opposition and they smash you in sales you have failed.

You can't overcome brand loyalty in a single month... it takes years, even decades to do that. No amount of feel good advertising will solve that short term.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You can't overcome brand loyalty in a single month... it takes years, even decades to do that. No amount of feel good advertising will solve that short term.

The BA managed to outsell the VY on a few occasions, it was a superior product and it was advertised and marketed very well.

There's no reason why the FG couldn't do the same if it was advertised and marketed properly, which is starting to happen now, and what do you know, sales have increased.

Brand loyalty will only take you so far if your product is inferior to your opposition, but yes, alot of Holdens sales come from braindead Holden loving bogans who don't know any other brands exist. But Ford can't use that as an excuse because they also have a lot of brand loyalists, just not as many as Holden.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The BA managed to outsell the VY on a few occasions, it was a superior product and it was advertised and marketed very well.

Two months from the entire model cycle.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Two months from the entire model cycle.

It could have been bigger if Ford could actually build cars.. At the time Ford were building Territory and Fairlane as well, and also utes which outsold Holden for years.

With more capacity they could have sold more cars, how long were people waiting for XR6 Turbos and XR8s in the early days.. Months...

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by bfiipursuit

It could have been bigger if Ford could actually build cars.. At the time Ford were building Territory and Fairlane as well, and also utes which outsold Holden for years.

With more capacity they could have sold more cars, how long were people waiting for XR6 Turbos and XR8s in the early days.. Months...

That was never gonna happen (increasing production) Ford were on 550 gross units a day and working a full Saturday. But during the BA days...even during the down balances in 06 Ford was still selling more aussie vehicles in Oz then Holden was.

Also when the BA was released it cut Holdens market share and put end to their 3rd shift.

[DJR-351]

What was the thread about again..... used:

[au adam]

Fords problem is that there are too many chiefs and not enough indians.Too many Managers positions sucking up the $$

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by au adam

Fords problem is that there are too many chiefs and not enough indians.Too many Managers positions sucking up the $$

Not true.....

That is the reason for their predicament is it ?

FoA's structure is a LOT flatter than even a few years ago. The organisational "Pyramid" is not pointy at all.

In the end labor costs are not a huge part of the vehicle cost, it's the material, and investment in equipment and tooling to make the end product.

So management salary costs aren't even a blip on the radar in the cost of a Falcon or the resultant profits.

[au adam]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Not true.....

That is the reason for their predicament is it ?

FoA's structure is a LOT flatter than even a few years ago. The organisational "Pyramid" is not pointy at all.

In the end labor costs are not a huge part of the vehicle cost, it's the material, and investment in equipment and tooling to make the end product.

So management salary costs aren't even a blip on the radar in the cost of a Falcon or the resultant profits.

My information came from Graham Wadsworth(try Google),who has recently go off the so called pyramid.I take his word for it.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by au adam

My information came from Graham Wadsworth(try Google),who has recently go off the so called pyramid.I take his word for it.

Obviously someone completely impartial and unbiased :evil3:

I know otherwise.....

[au adam]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Obviously someone completely impartial and unbiased :evil3:

I know otherwise.....

oh so you know him do you???Sounds like you do.
He didnt leave on bad terms,just wanted a change.I wish i was in the situation where i didnt have to work at his age.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by au adam

oh so you know him do you???Sounds like you do.
He didnt leave on bad terms,just wanted a change.I wish i was in the situation where i didnt have to work at his age.

Ford management are very highly regarded by other companies and I know of at least a couple who have been poached by places outside the Blue oval.

Insiders are often VERY hard on themselves and their internal bureaucracy, believe me Ford management and the business as a whole do VERY well with the minimal resources they have got !

Manufacturing is a "mugs game" in this country, this is not the fault of the management, it is the supporting structures and the realities of the global economy that make it so.

We'll see a time in the not too distant future when large scale manufacturing in 'Oz' is a memory...

This will not be because of 'lazy' managers.

[au adam]

Not lazy managers,too many managers.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by au adam

Not lazy managers,too many managers.

I reckon they have the number pretty right in manufacturing, they're no different to a couple of large companies I've worked for in my dealings with Ford....... Infact the numbers are lower there from my experience.

PD ? That's a different question..... I hear they lost a LOT of management there late last year.

[WOTDAH]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Ummmmm......

"Work force" cuts were 25 %
Staff cuts were 25 %
Management cuts were about 30 %.

Through my work, I personally know of many salaried people at Ford who went, and several managers who lost their jobs also.

You could have taken a "package" last November if you wanted one.....

The "deadwood" in management are gone, those that are left are 'under the pump" through no fault of their own.

Don't believe what you read in the papers. Management cuts were not 30% no where near it. As for me taking the package I was knocked back....

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by WOTDAH

Don't believe what you read in the papers. Management cuts were not 30% no where near it. As for me taking the package I was knocked back....

Dissagree.

You say you knew no staff cuts that happened ?

I know of a lot, AND I know of quite a few Ford managers that went also. NOT from reading these details in papers either.

Management cuts were no fewer in % that those in the hourly areas given 'packages'.

I suggest you get out of your "work group area" and check out the rest of the FoA 'organisation !!

Unfortunately I guess you're not given the opportunity to learn more given your work restrictions and job. You need to check your facts....

As for a two tier pay structure, I'm not for it. I wouldn't want it in the company I work for. It breeds contempt and jealousy.

[WOTDAH]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Dissagree.

You say you knew no staff cuts that happened ?

I know of a lot, AND I know of quite a few Ford managers that went also. NOT from reading these details in papers either.

Management cuts were no fewer in % that those in the hourly areas given 'packages'.

I suggest you get out of your "work group area" and check out the rest of the FoA 'organisation !!

Unfortunately I guess you're not given the opportunity to learn more given your work restrictions and job. You need to check your facts....

As for a two tier pay structure, I'm not for it. I wouldn't want it in the company I work for. It breeds contempt and jealousy.

Yes there were management heads cut BUT alot they were quickly backfilled by graduates. No where near the impact on the shop floor and within trades. I take it that you work for Ford as you know so much about what is going on. If you don’t I suggest you keep you opinions to your self. If you do get out of your cosy office and speak to the people on the floor and ask their opinion of the cut backs. I have been at Ford for close to 15 years and liaise with management every day all over both Geelong and Broadmeadows as part of my job. I am not a production worker as you suggest far from it infact but I am also not salary. With in the last 2 years majority of the people I work with have either been made redundant or shifted departments but the salaried personal I have to deal with has remained unchanged.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by WOTDAH

Yes there were management heads cut BUT alot they were quickly backfilled by graduates. No where near the impact on the shop floor and within trades. I take it that you work for Ford as you know so much about what is going on. If you don’t I suggest you keep you opinions to your self. If you do get out of your cosy office and speak to the people on the floor and ask their opinion of the cut backs. I have been at Ford for close to 15 years and liaise with management every day all over both Geelong and Broadmeadows as part of my job. I am not a production worker as you suggest far from it infact but I am also not salary. With in the last 2 years majority of the people I work with have either been made redundant or shifted departments but the salaried personal I have to deal with has remained unchanged.

You sound a little bitter mate !

I'm not at Ford, but I know a lot about it. And travel extensively to all sorts of manufacturing sites.

BTW: They're not opinions, just facts. There are no recent graduates who have been made up to managment role as you suggest either

[WOTDAH]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

BTW: They're not opinions, just facts. There are no recent graduates who have been made up to managment role as you suggest either

Where are you getting these so called facts from??? I have first hand experience. BTW in the last year there have several graduates moved up to managment just in one department alone. I could give you names...... but I wont.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by WOTDAH

Where are you getting these so called facts from??? I have first hand experience. BTW in the last year there have several graduates moved up to managment just in one department alone. I could give you names...... but I wont.

PM me....

Your definition of "management" appears to be incorrect.

Management role = LL6 and above. NOT supervision :

It is unusual to have more than one 'manager' in a department. Any other supervision etc is salaried role :nutsycuck

[WOTDAH]

I should probably clarify what I meant by management. I was actually meaning salary personal, hey lets face it they all think they are management anyway. :gren: The point I am trying to make is that no other area has been affected by cut back as much as production and maintenance, 2 critical areas to ensuring that a quality product is manufactured so why hit them again. There are far more effective ways of cost cutting than a wage freeze and a two tier structure.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by WOTDAH

I should probably clarify what I meant by management. I was actually meaning salary personal, hey lets face it they all think they are management anyway. :gren: The point I am trying to make is that no other area has been affected by cut back as much as production and maintenance, 2 critical areas to ensuring that a quality product is manufactured so why hit them again. There are far more effective ways of cost cutting than a wage freeze and a two tier structure.

Yes I agree.

[Ohio XB]

Just a point of cultural information, I can attest to WOTDAH's definition of what management is. Basically, within the plant, you are considered either labor (workers) or management (supervising). There is also skilled trades, but that is how employees are identified by each other.

I understand the difference you are making, Barraxr8, about LL6 and above being "Management", but I guess you could say that the term "management" gets used as slang in the plant.

I hope that helps a little.


Steve

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

Just a point of cultural information, I can attest to WOTDAH's definition of what management is. Basically, within the plant, you are considered either labor (workers) or management (supervising). There is also skilled trades, but that is how employees are identified by each other.

I understand the difference you are making, Barraxr8, about LL6 and above being "Management", but I guess you could say that the term "management" gets used as slang in the plant.

I hope that helps a little.


Steve

Yes it does, but the breakdown (across the company) in those that left FoA last year is about 25% at all three levels.

Hourly
Salaried
Management

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

Just a point of cultural information, I can attest to WOTDAH's definition of what management is. Basically, within the plant, you are considered either labor (workers) or management (supervising). There is also skilled trades, but that is how employees are identified by each other.

I understand the difference you are making, Barraxr8, about LL6 and above being "Management", but I guess you could say that the term "management" gets used as slang in the plant.

I hope that helps a little.


Steve

Its the same Australia wide Steve.....Ford dont have exclusive rights to this chain of thought.......

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Yes it does, but the breakdown (across the company) in those that left FoA last year is about 25% at all three levels.

Hourly
Salaried
Management

Okie doke.

I know we lost a LOT of "salaried' personnel at our plant. So much that it hurt.....and I'm an hourly guy saying that!


Steve

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Its the same Australia wide Steve.....Ford dont have exclusive rights to this chain of thought.......

I wouldn't think so.


Steve