HSV Clubsport R8 LSA road test

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by xexr6t

I've personally seen 6 different LSA powered cars run over well over 20 passes at Heathcote. Not one I've seen has run faster than 13.0. The slowest run in my 335 GT was 12.9 fastest 12.6 stock everything, traction control on. They are slow junk. They can have the badge i'll take the time slip.

Don't confuse us....the topic was Most Powerfull

[mick74GT]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Hang on....so now your talking about "performance".
Oh, and engine dynos which mean nothing, as nobody does them, there not viable and let's not forget.......it's the most powerful Aussie CAR....not ENGINE!

Maybe you should follow along more closely!

But hey, feel free to bring up performance and engine dynos if that's what you wish to chat about......it's a free world mate!

I can see there's no point arguing with you and should have known better than to bother.

My mistake

[mick74GT]

Originally Posted by xexr6t

I've personally seen 6 different LSA powered cars run over well over 20 passes at Heathcote. Not one I've seen has run faster than 13.0. The slowest run in my 335 GT was 12.9 fastest 12.6 stock everything, traction control on. They are slow junk. They can have the badge i'll take the time slip.

I've run a flat 13 in my auto, tune only E3 Maloo. And it's nowhere near as powerful as a GTS.. Sure it wasn't 6 different clubsports?

[xexr6t]

I don't waste my time watching regular clubsports. All were LSA badged GTS's, a mix of manuals and autos.

[mick74GT]

Originally Posted by xexr6t

I don't waste my time watching regular clubsports. All were LSA badged GTS's, a mix of manuals and autos.

Fair enough. I must have a freak Maloo as im not an especially good driver or anything either

[Chopped]

Let's not forgot that sometimes powerful cars are only as good as the person pressing the accelerator.

[xexr6t]

I to am not an exceptional driver either. I managed faster times in my GT at the same track same time with dunlops, aircon on ( it was hot), traction control on, left it in auto and no burn out ( just rolled slowly through the water box). I wanted to see a low 12 but was left very disappointed by there real world performance. They cant all have been dud cars or dud drivers.

[GTP534]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

Until ford release a locally produced car that is rated 400kw+ the clubsport and GTS will be the two most powerful cars produced here, its as simple as that.

I think it's because Hagon said "ever" to be produced.

That one little word will be like a red flag to a bull as the GT-F was proven to be the most powerful in those dyno tests.

It's the level of engineering that went into the GTS that I most admire about it.

[FPV GTHO]

GTF produced more at the wheels but cars aren't sold on rear wheel figures.

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by GTP534

I think it's because Hagon said "ever" to be produced.

That one little word will be like a red flag to a bull as the GT-F was proven to be the most powerful in those dyno tests.

It's the level of engineering that went into the GTS that I most admire about it.

The chassis dyno test / numbers don't matter is what Im getting at, until another local car comes out with a power rating of more than 430kw the GTS will always be number 1 in that regard.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Suggest all you like.......the above mentioned article again calls the GTS the most powerful

The convention in the automotive world, when discussing power, is WRT *engine* power. Deal with it.

[stazza]

I had a look a few months ago on a commodore forum in the dyno thread. Definitely some embarrassing results there. I think we could prove a lot if we compared our dyno thread to theirs.

Yes it doesn't really matter in the end as you buy what you want. But when they are selling magazines on blatant bull**** like that then I'm gonna call it out.

[blk6t]

I think it's a fantastic all round car, don't really care if my GT has more power or is a inch quicker down the quarter.

I am not too sure on Ford / FPV but Holden / HSV have some heavy torque management and anti-abuse controls on their V8 models. My SSV felt sluggish when I got it, wouldn't really spin the wheels off the mark and only felt strong when the engine revving. Even with T/C off, the ECU was deciding how much power and WOT off the line. Sort of an opposite feature to Ford that gives more power in the right conditions, this reduces power and only gives back what it thinks is right.

I never experienced anything like that with my XR6 Turbo or XR8.

Had torque management and anti-abuse turned off in the ECU and different animal. Now with HSV headers (cats) and diff back upgrade (don't want to do much more as daily driver) and tune, it's a very different engine. Pokey and more power down low.

The FGX is a great send off by Ford with next to no $ for any serious upgrade, really grown on me with looks too but for me the VF is a great platform and HSV have thrown some great gear at it making a great car.

It's kind of like when the BA GT was released, it was a slower but a better all round car to the HSV at the time which was quicker. Now I find the HSV to be a better all rounder and the Ford more raw, primitive and quicker.

[Jess1992]

That club sport is pretty sexy though

[Honro]

Originally Posted by mick74GT

I can see there's no point arguing with you and should have known better than to bother.

My mistake

Not trying to be a smart *** here, but after the video with each companies engineers present, in which the Ford produced more power, the commercial from Holden was quickly changed.

Prior to the test it was "The most powerful car ever build in Australia"

AFTER the test, the wording was changed to "The most powerful HOLDEN ever built".

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Honro

AFTER the test, the wording was changed to "The most powerful HOLDEN ever built".

Its a grey area, isn't it? Ford cant put the peak power on the badge or in the specs because it isn't capable of producing that figure under all conditions. So who gets to lay claim to 'most powerful'?

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by b0son

Its a grey area, isn't it? Ford cant put the peak power on the badge or in the specs because it isn't capable of producing that figure under all conditions. So who gets to lay claim to 'most powerful'?

Not quite right. The power ford quotes is what it makes "minimum"......or in the worst conditions. All other times the car makes more then what is quoted! Basically what's on the badge and what's quoted is what the car makes when your driving thru hell....and over boost isn't on. That's how the ford engineers explained it after that now famous dyno comp to see who was the most powerful. (I wonder why they didn't just go look at the badges)

Does no one read these threads? Fords overboost is nothing unique to fords. It's just a PR name. Every car has the ability to pull power at start up and extreme conditions!

[GTP534]

Originally Posted by b0son

Its a grey area, isn't it? Ford cant put the peak power on the badge or in the specs because it isn't capable of producing that figure under all conditions. So who gets to lay claim to 'most powerful'?

From my understanding I think that has something to do with it because it's a transient feature hence why it doesn't appear as the rated figure.

Anyway, my 335 has more than enough kW for me!

[mick74GT]

Originally Posted by Honro

Not trying to be a smart *** here, but after the video with each companies engineers present, in which the Ford produced more power, the commercial from Holden was quickly changed.

Prior to the test it was "The most powerful car ever build in Australia"

AFTER the test, the wording was changed to "The most powerful HOLDEN ever built".

fair enough.

I'm not a 'ford' or 'Holden' bloke as such. I have 2 fords and one hsv so I suppose if anything you could say I'm on the blue side. Point is I'm not a one eyed supporter of either

That being said there's no doubt in my mind the hsv is the more powerful car. And so it should being a 6.2L supercharged v8 as opposed to a 5l... And like I said the performance does reflect that

[SensationFG8]

Originally Posted by mick74GT

fair enough.

I'm not a 'ford' or 'Holden' bloke as such. I have 2 fords and one hsv so I suppose if anything you could say I'm on the blue side. Point is I'm not a one eyed supporter of either

That being said there's no doubt in my mind the hsv is the more powerful car. And so it should being a 6.2L supercharged v8 as opposed to a 5l... And like I said the performance does reflect that

Which performance reflects that? Aren't the two cars within barely a tenth when the little 5L has almost 80KW less? The Miami is a far superior motor, the hsv is the "complete package" if you like little gizmo's... The 430 rating is very generous.

http://www.evomagazine.com.au/fpv-v-hsv-stripped-bare/

[mick74GT]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Which performance reflects that? Aren't the two cars within barely a tenth when the little 5L has almost 80KW less? The Miami is a far superior motor, the hsv is the "complete package" if you like little gizmo's... The 430 rating is very generous.

http://www.evomagazine.com.au/fpv-v-hsv-stripped-bare/

I think we can all agree that the little 5l is producing more power than what is on the side stickers. Hence only the couple of tenths difference

[SensationFG8]

So we acknowledge it makes more than the badge but we still think the detuned lsa in the clubby is more powerful because the badge says so?

[mick74GT]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

So we acknowledge it makes more than the badge but we still think the detuned lsa in the clubby is more powerful because the badge says so?

I wasn't talking about the detuned clubby. I was talking about the GTS as per the previous posts

And yes there's no doubt at all that the 5L makes a lot more power than what the badge says

[SensationFG8]

Ok cool, so I think it's fair to say gts, gtf, xr8 sprint, probably xr6t sprint then Clubsport lsa as an order then?

I'm happy to acknowledge the gts has more at the fly than the gtf and the gtf has more at the wheels.

Sounds like we've reached a consensus everyone.

Edit forgot the 335, it probably has more than the clubby too... It's dropping down the order fast...

Not a bad effort for Ford 4 of the top 5 power wise at the time they shut up shop...

[mick74GT]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Ok cool, so I think it's fair to say gts, gtf, xr8 sprint, probably xr6t sprint then Clubsport lsa as an order then?

I'm happy to acknowledge the gts has more at the fly than the gtf and the gtf has more at the wheels.

Sounds like we've reached a consensus everyone.

Haha yeah mate.

You couldn't go wrong with any of those especially the first two on that list!

[SensationFG8]

I'd have all 6 if I had the coin and garage space...

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by mick74GT

I think we can all agree that the little 5l is producing more power than what is on the side stickers. Hence only the couple of tenths difference

That's a bit hypocritical isn't it. If your going to throw away the fords badge because you KNOW it makes more power, you can't say that badges are what prove who's the most powerful. Try throwing the GTS badge away aswell....and doing what the real world does when finding out how much power a car has.....and that's dynoing it as a full package! Certainly not reading a badge that comes from the sales and PR department!

Hence why the famous dyno battle put the Ford GTF on top. Not the 43000kw badged HSV.

I Garuntee when they release the final GtsR they'll do another dyno battle to see who has the most powerful car! They won't be looking at badges

[mick74GT]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

That's a bit hypocritical isn't it. If your going to throw away the fords badge because you KNOW it makes more power, you can't say that badges are what prove who's the most powerful. Try throwing the GTS badge away aswell....and doing what the real world does when finding out how much power a car has.....and that's dynoing it as a full package! Certainly not reading a badge that comes from the sales and PR department!

Hence why the famous dyno battle put the Ford GTF on top. Not the 43000kw badged HSV.

I Garuntee when they release the final GtsR they'll do another dyno battle to see who has the most powerful car! They won't be looking at badges

Im going to regret replying but do you understand what driveline losses are ? Ever noticed that if you have an automatic and manual version of the same car the manual tends to show more power on a dyno?

why is this? Both cars are rated at the same power yet one produces less on a dyno. Does this mean that one of these identical cars is more powerful than the other? No it doesn't. Both engines have the same power. One just shows a lower reading on a dyno.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by mick74GT

Im going to regret replying but do you understand what driveline losses are ? Ever noticed that if you have an automatic and manual version of the same car the manual tends to show more power on a dyno?

why is this? Both cars are rated at the same power yet one produces less on a dyno. Does this mean that one of these identical cars is more powerful than the other? No it doesn't. Both engines have the same power. One just shows a lower reading on a dyno.

First I'll remind you the VF SS auto and manual both have different power ratings......260 and 270. So what do you do to see how much power each makes? Put em on a dyno.....

But no need to fret.....were all grown ups here.....but I'm not sure why you think driveline losses mean anything in this debate. That's exactly why cars are dynoed.
Ok, so it's not a question about which cars have a more powerful "engine"....it's which cars put the most power to the ground. Doesn't matter if theyre auto or manual.....or one is a 7.0Scharged engine, or has front wheel drive. As long as any tests done use comparable gearboxes, that issue is covered!

When these magazines tell us who is the most powerful of the tested cars......it's not an "engine" dyno competition. They are showing the public which car puts more power to the road!
It's exactly what everyone does on this forum to show how much power they put out. They don't go to an 'engine' dyno, or look at the cars badges. They put them on the dyno so the car as a whole puts out the figure.
Tougher drive lines like the GTS clearly suck power but that's the trade off for reliability with big power.
As has been done allready, adding performance figures into this debate is irrelevant, as there is a whole other group of things like tyres, weight and so on that can help or overcome power.
Now let's not forget this debate started on the topic of claimed most powerful cars that have all been dynoed by said magazine so they could title "the most powerful Australian muscle car". It wasn't the GTS, despite its badges!!!

[1TUFFUTE]

So what's the consensus here?
Are people saying the Ford ISNT the most powerful car atm, despite the dyno title it won, and despite Holden changing their advertisements logo after said dyno title too "holdens most powerful"......

Or is the Holden the most powerful because it has a bigger badge number, and no doubt would win on an 'engine' dyno......

Performance figures, sale figures, looks and so on are all irrelevant here......