Territory, BF and FG Brake Master Cylinders - Lessons learned today

happy1 · 26-09-2020, 11:13 PM

Hi,
Maybe Brake master cylinder differences has been discussed before in various posts..

My 2008 Territory had developed that 'sinking feeling' of the pedal slowly sinking to the floor, (without fluid leaking out anywhere), so I desperately had to repair it today. It isn't so cool to drive with barely any brakes

I knew there were some differences, between BA, BF, SY, SZ and FG, but I thought I would have something in my collection to swap over, that would work, but guess what: I was wrong! ... and I wasted half my day on it too.

Type 1: Angled bolt pattern onto the brake booster. Small fitting for the tube closest to the booster. (Found on BF year 2006, incl. F6 Typhoon)
Shaft from booster goes about 15mm deeper into this master cylinder than type 2 below.

Type 2: Angled bolt pattern onto the brake booster. Identical larger tube fitting for both connections. ( Found on my SY 2008 ). Has a bras nut on the side near the brake booster,

Type 3: Horizontal bolt pattern onto the brake booster. Identical large tube fittings for both connections. Found on 2010 FG, an Territory SZ. (Probably all the FG range and SZ range).

Note: There may be other important differences that I'm not aware of, for example different pressure ratio for the rear, so please be careful when ordering brake parts for your car, The lesson is: Don't mix and match like I tried today..

This is how I wasted my afternoon, without too much luck:
My first attempt: Grabbed both the Booster and Master from FG, (Type 3 above), and tried to install it in my SY Terri. I though this should work since both have DSC, and both have the same sizes tube connections.. Nah, pedal was a little lower positioned, but shaft from booster returned to end position, so I thought it would be ok, Swapped the sensor on the reservoir, and attempted a test run: No luck, brakes remained on quite stiff after braking, so that unless my master cylinder was faulty, that does not work!!

Second attempt: Swap back to the original SY booster with angled bolt interface, (described as Type2 above), but I grabbed just the master cylinder from a BF F6, No luck, the rear tube didn't fit.

Third attempt: Desperately wanted this back together and working today, so I thought: Let's dismantle both the Type1 and Type2 master cylinders, find the fault and possibly swap some seals or parts over, since both are PBR make, and both looks same size.. I thought there can't be that many differences inside. How wrong I was! After removing the reservoir and pulling the 'pin' out from one of them from the hole where the reservoir sat, the thing popped apart and splatted brake fluid all over my clothes, so I had to quickly wash and change. Not a good start. That master was clean and nice, couldn't see any wear or problems. Got the next one, my original 'problem' master cylinder apart also. All the pistons and springs were totally different. The only thing in common is that they fit in the same housing, except the depth of the rod from the booster goes deeper into the piston, so it wouldn't work to swap internals around. Besides the type with small brass screw cap near the booster has two pins holding it together, and two bleed valves, (one for each circuit). The 'problem' master had quite dirty fluid, some small dirt particles in it, so I recon that was the problem that the dirt had caused the small 'bleed' valves that open when you return the pedal to neutral didn't seal. These sit in the center of each of the two circuit pistons.

I had in a way given up at that point, so I re-assembled it, and put back the original one, as I thought I had to order a new one, and wait for that, but wanted to be able to slowly move the car around at least while waiting for parts.
I topped up fluid and did a few pumps, and suddenly it seems to not 'sink' anymore. Then I thought: This is going surprisingly well, so let's drive from A to B, no problems, 'fixed'.. I hooked up the trailer and started driving, I thought, much better than before.. However, not far from my house, empty road, I did a test to see how well it would stop. Crap.. It braked mostly on the back so I could feel the rear end lowering down while braking, way to little breaking at the front.. Hmm.. In the rush I had swapped the two tubes around. On Territory the both tubes reach each position, and they are the same size. I assume the 'thing' next to the master pistons is a pressure regulator for the rear circuit.
So the lesson is: Next time I will order a new part exactly for the model.

Interesting if any of you can confirm how many types of brake master cylinders there are, and if you have done similar swaps that actually worked.

Cheers,

Bill M · 27-09-2020, 02:26 PM

The Bosch catalogue may help. Bosch owned PBR before they dissolved it so all the part numbers are listed.

https://ao.bosch-automotive.com/en/catalogue

happy1 · 29-09-2020, 04:20 AM

Thanks Bill,
The Bosch catalogue is very useful as it gives listing of parts per model and fitment across to other vehicle variants also. Unfortunately there are no brake parts listed for the FPV models in the Bosch catalogue.

Also it was a wake-up call to see all the 'NLA (No Longer Available)' all across the catalogue. You would think Bosch as an aftermarket player would have continued to offer parts for Australian models that still have a number of vehicles on the road, but obviously not.

Franco Cozzo · 29-09-2020, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happy1

Thanks Bill,
The Bosch catalogue is very useful as it gives listing of parts per model and fitment across to other vehicle variants also. Unfortunately there are no brake parts listed for the FPV models in the Bosch catalogue.

Also it was a wake-up call to see all the 'NLA (No Longer Available)' all across the catalogue. You would think Bosch as an aftermarket player would have continued to offer parts for Australian models that still have a number of vehicles on the road, but obviously not.

One of the world's leading hydraulics manufacturers ex Taiwan that sells into our market doesn't do any 'ADR cylinders' - there's going to be serious issues getting hands on these parts in another 10 years.

Bosch recently completely exited hydraulics in our market.

**Jastel** · 29-09-2020, 08:26 PM

Been caught between Falcon models in the cabs...I know there are DSC and Non DSC ones.

Usually a clean out and reassemble with new fluid will get you another 6 months.

GTLEGEND · 30-09-2020, 11:01 PM

All the Brake Master Cylinders Listed Below for future reference:

SX-SY2:

SX SY Brake Master Cylinders.JPG

SZ/SZ2:

Only 1: BG 2140 E

BA/BF:

BA BF Brake Master Cylinder Image.JPG

FG:

FG Brake Master Cylinders.JPG

FG2:

Only 1: BG 2140 E

FGX:

Only 1: BG 2140 E

gkhn · 01-10-2020, 01:07 AM

Glad you opened this thread.
Mine hasn't failed yet.
How long does the master cylinder last usually if you changed the fluid every 2 years?
What is the difference between traction control with dsc and anti-spin traction system?
I guess later model 2008 ones and upwards including fg mark2 and fgx has the BG 2140 E?
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Genuine-...4AAOSwppde6aeR

happy1 · 01-10-2020, 06:06 AM

Hi,
It is natural to think the lifetime is linked to both age and kilometers, but also driving style / usage. Also fluid cleanliness would be a factor.

It is annoying that part numbers doesn't seem to be stamped on the unit, but on mine there is a sticker on the reservoir with the PBR number: B227-109. It also have a few digits stamped at the front and the side, such as mine has 'FE' stamped at the front, and '29D4' stamped on the top of the valve on the side. My SY is a May08 build, so it would in my case be Ford number SX 2140A, and I do have DSC.

I still haven't understood why for example the later BG 2140 E that I tried, if combined with the newer booster, would not work in my car. (Brakes remained on when I tried it). The master I tried had been sitting for some years so it could have a sticky piston. I'm tempted to take it apart and check that it isn't stuck internally.
Cheers,

Franco Cozzo · 01-10-2020, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happy1

Hi,
It is natural to think the lifetime is linked to both age and kilometers, but also driving style / usage. Also fluid cleanliness would be a factor.

It is annoying that part numbers doesn't seem to be stamped on the unit, but on mine there is a sticker on the reservoir with the PBR number: B227-109. It also have a few digits stamped at the front and the side, such as mine has 'FE' stamped at the front, and '29D4' stamped on the top of the valve on the side. My SY is a May08 build, so it would in my case be Ford number SX 2140A, and I do have DSC.

I still haven't understood why for example the later BG 2140 E that I tried, if combined with the newer booster, would not work in my car. (Brakes remained on when I tried it). The master I tried had been sitting for some years so it could have a sticky piston. I'm tempted to take it apart and check that it isn't stuck internally.
Cheers,

B227-109 is the Bosch/PBR part number for that master cylinder.

arm79 · 21-07-2022, 06:52 PM

I'm concerned that by replying here I'll be accused of thread mining.. But given this thread is less than 2 years old I'm going to call is thread dusting, maybe even thread scraping.

Anyways I've seen this question pop up every now and then and there don't seem to be many direct answers. So hopefully this info assists any travellers from the planet Melmac in the future.

I'm sure this info is good for all BA, BF, SX and SY upto 2008, maybe 2009. And its in relation to the PBR part numbers to make it easier to ID in the aftermarket and wrecker yard.

BA and BF vehicles with ABS/TCS ONLY used PBR booster B259-041 and PBR master cylinder B227-109. At some stage BF went to PBR booster B259-058.

The same B259-041/058 and B227-109 brake combination was used on all cars from the most lowly XT to the most expensive FPV with 6/4 Brembo calipers.

BF vehicles with Stability Control/DSC (whatever you want to call it) used PBR booster B259-060 and master cylinder B227-114.

Couple of very distinct external differences between the 2 combinations.

The metal pipes on B227-109 are different sizes. The pipe closest to the booster is about half the size of the other one. That nut is M10 and the other nut M12.

The metal pipes on B227-114 are both the same thick size, both M12 nuts.

Booster B259-041 and B259-058 are identical externally.

Booster B259-060 is, as far as I know, identical to B259-058 internally and the only external difference is the B259-060 front push rod is shorter. By about 10 or so mm.

The bore in the piston of MC B224-114 is much shallower than B224-109.

You can swap the rods around between the 2 and as a combination they will work. Otherwise they won't.

Same applies for the relevant SX/SY vehicles up until those years.

Much of it was pointed out in the first post, but thought it would be good to put part numbers to the descriptions.

gkhn · 21-07-2022, 11:12 PM

Thanks.
Great info.
But how about the FGs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arm79

I'm concerned that by replying here I'll be accused of thread mining.. But given this thread is less than 2 years old I'm going to call is thread dusting, maybe even thread scraping.

Anyways I've seen this question pop up every now and then and there don't seem to be many direct answers. So hopefully this info assists any travellers from the planet Melmac in the future.

I'm sure this info is good for all BA, BF, SX and SY upto 2008, maybe 2009. And its in relation to the PBR part numbers to make it easier to ID in the aftermarket and wrecker yard.

BA and BF vehicles with ABS/TCS ONLY used PBR booster B259-041 and PBR master cylinder B227-109. At some stage BF went to PBR booster B259-058.

The same B259-041/058 and B227-109 brake combination was used on all cars from the most lowly XT to the most expensive FPV with 6/4 Brembo calipers.

BF vehicles with Stability Control/DSC (whatever you want to call it) used PBR booster B259-060 and master cylinder B227-114.

Couple of very distinct external differences between the 2 combinations.

The metal pipes on B227-109 are different sizes. The pipe closest to the booster is about half the size of the other one. That nut is M10 and the other nut M12.

The metal pipes on B227-114 are both the same thick size, both M12 nuts.

Booster B259-041 and B259-058 are identical externally.

Booster B259-060 is, as far as I know, identical to B259-058 internally and the only external difference is the B259-060 front push rod is shorter. By about 10 or so mm.

The bore in the piston of MC B224-114 is much shallower than B224-109.

You can swap the rods around between the 2 and as a combination they will work. Otherwise they won't.

Same applies for the relevant SX/SY vehicles up until those years.

Much of it was pointed out in the first post, but thought it would be good to put part numbers to the descriptions.

arm79 · 22-07-2022, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gkhn

Thanks.
Great info.
But how about the FGs?

FGs I couldn't say. Don't own one and haven't had to sully my hands on one yet.

But from my travels looking at catalogues and eBay/Gumtree/wrecker ads when I was trying to decipher the B-series stuff it appeared that the FG, sedan at least, started with a B227-121 master cylinder. The only difference between B227-114 and B227-121 appears the the design of the fluid level switch. 114 is 2 pin and 121 is 3 pin.

These were coupled with booster B259-060. So essentially same same but slightly different as BF.

Somewhere in later 2008 they went to B259-068 for the booster and B227-129 for the master cylinder and that was used until end of production.

B227-129 had a stepped design boss that went over the piston compared to a constant diameter bore of the MCs that came before it. As well as the change to the position of the mounting holes originally mentioned.

But as I said, never having touched an FG that way this is all theory from catalogues. Not practical experience.

It does appear to be in sync time and part wise with GT's post above though.