Where do I stand?

Borgod · 03-06-2005, 04:27 PM

I have an EF XR8 that had a slight misfire under low-rev load. It would miss and backfire a little and usually when it hit around 2000rpm all cylinders would fire and the power would be back. It was driveable, but a little annoying as it mostly happened when it was cold.
It was like this for about a month or two.

I took it in to UltraTune across the road from my work (I can see it from my window here) and they basically told me it was a buggered injector, that I would have to take it back in next tuesday and they would have it for a few days. No worries.

I go to pick it up and when I start it up it was misfiring 100% of the time. Running like absolute $hit, backfiring the whole rev range even at idle, It sounded and fealt like it was running on only 4 cylinders.

I go back into UltraTune and tell them about it, and the mechanic comes back out and tells me that plug No3 was covered in fuel so he replaced it and thats all he did. So he revved it alot (for some reason) and fiddled around with the plugs making sure they were all in and it did SFA. So he basically shrugged his shoulders and said he didn't know why it was doing it. So I had to drive it like that 20km into the city to Ford and leave it with them for a few days (where it still is now).

So basically they gave me the car back 10 times worse.

Because of this I have refused to pay for the 'assessment'.

Talked to him on the phone about it and he said I can be expecting the bill in the mail, otherwise I will be getting the debt collectors.

I still refuse to pay this, and even thinking I will go to court if I have to.
Why should I pay them when they have made the car worse!?

Have I got any chance with this?

LTDHO · 03-06-2005, 04:49 PM

Whether they made your car worst or not, you have to pay the bill regardless.

So Ultratune had your car for 2 days and change one injector in that time? How much are they charging you?

It could be a fault that has gotten worse an not related to the mechanic.

Have you noticed extra fuel comsuption?

Get your car on an analyzer or better a dyno and have the gasses measured.

How many klms has it got on it?
Have you used dodgy fuel at all?
Have you ran the petrol tank empty recently?
What area are you in? Might be able to refer you to a place.

Borgod · 03-06-2005, 04:58 PM

They had the car for 8 hours.
Before - driveable
After - undriveable

Yes it did get worse, during the time they had it, whatever they did to it.

The fuel consumption was fine before, however I noticed it guzzled nearly 1/4 tank in 20kms after I got it back.

All those other questions you asked me are irrellevant because when I gave the car to them it was running about 90%.
They gave it back to me running 10%

I didn't put fuel in it during the time they had it. I didnt drive 100,00kms during the time they had it. I didnt empty the tank during the time they had it.

Damnit why are good, honest mechanics so hard to find?!

Im in Perth.

RG · 03-06-2005, 05:28 PM

I say that if you pay to have something, anything fixed no matter what it is and it doesn't actually get fixed then you shouldn't have to pay. Contact the automotive chamber of commerce if they either don't fix it properly or keep on harassing you for money for a service that wasn't actually rendered. My two cents anyways.

ratter · 03-06-2005, 06:59 PM

You should have to pay them for what they have done, but they also should have an obligation to sort it out for you

gtfpv · 03-06-2005, 07:10 PM

dont pay them they are there to diagnos and find the problem . not assume something and do it then charge you anyway. they should have charged you for time spent on diagnosis and kept you informed of their findings , quite clearly they didn't do this . at the end of the day they were not capable of finding the problem, they didn't fix it , they didn't inform you of this , and done something differant to what theey told you they were going to do. if you have no success you dont charge more than labour time if at all.

Leah · 03-06-2005, 07:54 PM

Borgod... I had something similar happen with my EF. Xcept mine was diff problems. We took it to ABS because it was making a squeeking noise from the back, and they said they'd do some diagnosis tests and get back to us. They had the car for a day and told me the axle was bent.

So we left the car there, paid for them to replace the axle and the labour etc etc. After many $$$ later, i go get the car, didnt even drive 5 minutes up the road before it started squeeking. Rang them and did a U-banger and went back. Told them it still wasnt fixed. Gave them the car the next day, they say its the rear wheel bearing on the other side this time. So i pay for a new wheel bearing, labour etc etc.

Go to pick it up, drive 5-10 minutes, its all good.... then it starts again. I almost lost it!!! Rang them and went straight back again, they say, youve bent another axle! By this time i went complety besserk, and refused to pay for them to replace it again. They said i mustve run up a curb or something coz it was bent. My dad & Steve turned up very ****ed off and TOLD them they WILL replace it. The kindly obliged. heheh Thanks dad! Big Scary Dutch Man will always do the job.

Anyways, they replaced the axle again, free of charge. Still didnt fix it. I was so ****ed off. Ended up replacing the whole diff at another place and problem fixed. Then ABS had the balls to send me a customer satisfaction survey. Needless to say they didnt receive a very happy customer report that day!

deesun · 03-06-2005, 07:57 PM

Get a hold of Ultra Tunes head office fax and send them details in writing. Use your time effectivly this weekend and write write without too much emotion or threats. Include things like what the mechanic said. Possibly ring them first thing Monday and get the name of the person at Customer Relations so that you can direct the fax to the right person. Unfortunatly you should still pay the bill but you also have to give them the opportunity to fix it though it seems the mechanic is at a loss anyway.

:

buickman · 03-06-2005, 08:57 PM

You are still obligated to pay for time and parts fitted. But as its a group of companies you might get a compromise.

I had something simular with a 1982 Corvette I had a reco tranny fitted when I got the car back it was running like a dog misfiring. I eventully found what they had done to cause to problem. They dening they caused the problem. I wanted them to pay me for my time and was going to deduct that from the bill but was threated with legal action. It annoyed me but I had to pay the full price for the time and repairs. Needless to say I would not recommed them to anyone.

buickman

Borgod · 03-06-2005, 09:30 PM

Cheers for the responses guys.

Well Ive calmed down somewhat since I spoke to them today.

Since then I have picked up my car from Ford and they have traced it to a valve that is not shutting properly. Cylinder 3 is leaking alot and the lift on valve #3 is not right. The injectors were cleaned etc and they are fine. Leads fine, ECU fine, AFS fine.

So you have to ask, how is it possible in the 8 hours that Ultra Tune had it that a valve has suddenly decided to stick and not shut properly?

Thinking the worst, is there anything they could of done (on purpose) to make it stick to f*ck me over and keep the repair bill much higher? Any mechanics that can think of something that could cause this? I can't.

I have no idea how it's possible, or why it wasn't like this for the past 2 months, but as soon as I leave it with them it starts missing like it is.

Something smells like fish and it aint what we'd hope.

ratter · 03-06-2005, 09:54 PM

It's probably just a coincedence that it happened there.

There is nothing they could do to the valve with out pulling it apart unless they dropped something into the injector hole when the injector was out or something in the combustion chamber when the plug was out.
It's not something that would normally happen, but i suppose it is possible.
You would not be able to tell until the heads came off
I'm not sure what the cams are like in the EF XR8, but it may also be possible that you have a worn cam lobe which would explain it slowly starting the problem and then it sped up towards the end.
Another possiblilty may be a burnt valve, if you have LPG this may be more of a possibility.
With older cars it was possible to do damage by over revving the motor, but with modern cars and their computers, the motor can not be revved to do the damage as the factory rev limiter cuts in.

**ebxr8240** · 03-06-2005, 10:10 PM

I assume the injectors where cleaned at U/T ?
I'd say reving it to try and clear cylinder may have made it worse...
Pluss they have a cheek to hand your car over as they would have known it was running crap..Or did they ??...They are supposed to be qualified tradesmen..I wouldn't pay too much...Did they fit new injector or clean the one suspect??
It was their wrong diagnosis not your wrong desicion to take it there...
WHY was valve not shutting properly ???
Bent valve or broken valve spring is the usual fault....

sfr rob · 03-06-2005, 10:18 PM

oops :baby bott

geckoGT · 03-06-2005, 10:19 PM

Did they charge for a new injector? Ask to see the old one! Is the bill itemised? I think you will find the MTA will be able to help on what is reasonable labour cost for the work they have done.

MO · 03-06-2005, 10:23 PM

Don't pay you did not recieve value for money,it won't even get to small claims court they will probably drop as it will cost them more to get it off you.
And if they do by some strange chance do, you can only afford $5.00 a week.
capiche

Borgod · 03-06-2005, 11:16 PM

hehe capiche

They didn't touch the injector. It was their 'diagnosis' by whatever method that led them to that theory. They said that plug number 3 was covered in fuel and crap so I guess they assumed it was a busted injector.
All they did was pull out that plug. The mechanic said he put a new plug in, the manager/owner said they put the same one back in.

The injectors were cleaned today at Ford. I am happy the way they have helped me so far. The service guy at Ford agreed it could be a burnt valve also. I thought possible lifters/cam worn but I am preying to god it isn't ($$$$).

The thing is, this UltraTune is right opposite my work, I can see the building from my window. I work in a government department with 800+ employees.

I think I need to make him aware of that.

pauljh74 · 04-06-2005, 01:11 AM

well UT best compromise should be you pay for the plug to be replaced. You asked them to sort out the problem, they failed miserably. How should you be expected to pay for a diagnosis when they didn't diagnose anything? When they just scratched their heads and said "I dunno?" Seems they are an alternative to dealerships - got a bunch of monkeys doing most of the work.

Borgod · 04-06-2005, 01:32 AM

I had it booked in for next Tuesday. So they really had no obligation to fix it, I didnt expect them too.

I just wanted the car back in the same state to that which I gave it to them, so I could return it to them to fix it properly next week.

They didnt, they made it worse so I couldnt even drive it at all.

gtfpv · 04-06-2005, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauljh74

well UT best compromise should be you pay for the plug to be replaced. You asked them to sort out the problem, they failed miserably. How should you be expected to pay for a diagnosis when they didn't diagnose anything? When they just scratched their heads and said "I dunno?" Seems they are an alternative to dealerships - got a bunch of monkeys doing most of the work.

WOULD YOU TRUST THAT SHONKY LOOKING BLOKE ON THE TV COMMERCIAL. I WOULDN'T TAKE A GUARANTEE OFF A BLOKE THAT LOOKS LIKE HE'D HAVE TROUBLE BENDING DOWN TO PUT AIR IN HIS TYRES . IN A MILLION YEARS.

: :sm_headba THATS to ultra tunes policy.

johnydep · 04-06-2005, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borgod

hehe capiche

They didn't touch the injector. It was their 'diagnosis' by whatever method that led them to that theory. They said that plug number 3 was covered in fuel and crap so I guess they assumed it was a busted injector.
All they did was pull out that plug. The mechanic said he put a new plug in, the manager/owner said they put the same one back in.

The injectors were cleaned today at Ford. I am happy the way they have helped me so far. The service guy at Ford agreed it could be a burnt valve also. I thought possible lifters/cam worn but I am preying to god it isn't ($$$$).

The thing is, this UltraTune is right opposite my work, I can see the building from my window. I work in a government department with 800+ employees.

I think I need to make him aware of that.

So they are charging you for one plug & a diagnosis, is this correct?
What is the amount they want?

And you have been driving it with a misfire & backfire for a month or two?

Quote:

I have an EF XR8 that had a slight misfire under low-rev load. It would miss and backfire a little and usually when it hit around 2000rpm all cylinders would fire and the power would be back. It was driveable, but a little annoying as it mostly happened when it was cold.
It was like this for about a month or two.

Could more damage have been caused by driving with the problem for so long?

I've been told that a misfire leaves large amounts of unburnt fuel behind, which causes the film of protecting oil to be washed of the cylinders, pistons & rings. This then creates large amounts of wear particles that get washed down into the sump by the excess unburnt fuel, which circulates through the lubrication system. The oil becomes diluted by the fuel, and breaks down causing more wear particles to circulate.

That Ultra Tune are probably not very good mechanics in not diagnosing the problem correctly, but I don't think that all the blame can be put onto them.

Why do all franchise workshops & dealerships always blame the injectors & then sell you an injector clean job?

Borgod · 04-06-2005, 02:11 AM

Yes they want to charge me for diagnosis. The mechanic said they put in a new plug, the manager/owner said they didnt.

The MINOR mis/backfire had been happening for the past 2 months yes, but this only occured when it was cold and basically under 2000rpm. It was driveable, but not ideal.
I gave it to them in this state.
I got it back from UltraTune later that day 10 times worse... it fealt like it was running on 4 cylinders.

You may be right, thats why Im not driving it at all now until it gets fixed

However it is unacceptable to return the vehicle to the owner in an undrivable state, alot worse than was originally brought in, and expect you to return it 6 days later.

He tried to convince me that all injectors should be removed and replaced if necessary, even though he said only 1 injector looked shot.

In the end they were all fine anyway.

Idiots.

johnydep · 04-06-2005, 02:25 AM

Yes to ask you to return a vehicle with such a bad problem in 6 days is ridiculus.

But if They had sabotaged the engine to create extra revenue, it would be obvious & the dealership mechanic should have picked it up.

It just sounds like coincidence, especially if a burnt valve & valve opening problem has since been found by another workshop.
The beginings of a burnt valve will give intermittent problems, until it gets to the stage where there is a decent leak between the valve & seat, then that cylinder will not fire at all & throw the whole engine out of ballance giving the impression of running on 4 cylinders.

Quote:

valve that is not shutting properly. Cylinder 3 is leaking alot and the lift on valve #3 is not right.

It just sounds like coincidence that the problem got worse, it is pretty hard to cause the problems you describe by revving the sh*ts out of those engines.

And if the V8 was only running on four cylinders, you'd be lucky to get it out the drive way. sound like one cylinder dyed completley, maybe two.

let us know what further info comes out about the engine. But be carefull before you blame the other guys for killing your engine.

DRU842 · 04-06-2005, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deesun

Get a hold of Ultra Tunes head office fax and send them details in writing. Use your time effectivly this weekend and write write without too much emotion or threats. Include things like what the mechanic said. Possibly ring them first thing Monday and get the name of the person at Customer Relations so that you can direct the fax to the right person. Unfortunatly you should still pay the bill but you also have to give them the opportunity to fix it though it seems the mechanic is at a loss anyway.

:

This is the correct approach. We've used several Ultratune shops over the years, mostly with great results. The national warrenties have always been honoured & made good with no fuss.

Phil · 04-06-2005, 09:33 AM

When I used to work on cars for a career, when ever a car came in for a miss or just a tune up we used to give it compression test first to see if it was all good, then proceed with the tune up. This was so we weren't wasting time and money trying to tune something that may have had a cracked head, burnt valve or just a stuffed motor. It also was a case of if the motor or head was stuffed we maybe able to get extra work with repairing the motor.
If the guys working on your car had done this then they could have found the valve not seating and maybe scored head removal/repair as well, extra work.
Things must have changed now a days ??