Will the Holden brand survive?

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Whistlr

https://cadillacaustralia.com
No need to be sorry. You need to maybe reread what was said. Someone was saying that GM would pull out completely, and I was saying that at the very least they have plans for Cadillac. I didn't say they'd get rid if Holden, he did.

Maybe they should, though. Maybe GM see what everyone else is seeing; the Holden brand holds no value. The Cadillac brand, however, has a whole lot more pull especially if the product is half decent.

What sort of commitments are they willing to keep losing money on? They're not selling, lmao. The dealers they choose to carry the Cadillac brand may be few but the rest will just shut shop or keep selling Holden utes and suvs, with Corvettes and camaros before the latter is eventually discontinued. Maybe in another corner of select dealerships they'll have Cadillacs.

Brand these select dealerships as "GM", with three different brands sold under the one roof. See? GM's solution is found on a Ford forum.

OK i'll remove my sorry and call it ridiculous.

That website is just somebodies pipe dream. which looks to be a small outfit in Rowville VIC.

Nothing to do with GM other than importing GM products

[Cav]

Gee some really good and thoughtful comments here without any name calling.

I think what befell the local car industry is exactly the same that is hitting manufacturers everywhere in Australia.

We Australians want cheap stuff.

Our local manufacturing is too costly now due mainly to high wages and more recently high energy costs. We won't pay the big money to buy Australian goods when we can get Chinese stuff a lot cheaper.

We love Korean cars, but we are wary of Chinese cars the same way we were wary of Japanese cars in the sixties. In those days they put an AM radio in a car as standard equipment whereas in local cars it was an option. They were seen as copiers, not innovators, and those people with bad memories of the war in the Pacific hated them.

How things progressed eh?

The Chinese are a juggernaut - they will rule the world through economic might backed up by a military effort just to keep the yanks under control.

They own the Pacific, have control over the port in Darwin, own big cattle stations, milk processing companies and also seem to have many politicians on their payroll.

You had better get your kids learning Chinese at school - it may help them big time when the screaming yellow hoard arrive on your door step.

Disclaimer: My great grandfather was Chinese who came out here from Hong Kong during the gold rush era.

That means I should be 1/8th Chinese but DNA tests show I only have 8%

I hope that is enough to save me from the re-education camps comrade

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Cav

Gee some really good and thoughtful comments here without any name calling.

I think what befell the local car industry is exactly the same that is hitting manufacturers everywhere in Australia.

We Australians want cheap stuff.

Our local manufacturing is too costly now due mainly to high wages and more recently high energy costs. We won't pay the big money to buy Australian goods when we can get Chinese stuff a lot cheaper.

We love Korean cars, but we are wary of Chinese cars the same way we were wary of Japanese cars in the sixties. In those days they put an AM radio in a car as standard equipment whereas in local cars it was an option. They were seen as copiers, not innovators, and those people with bad memories of the war in the Pacific hated them.

How things progressed eh?

The Chinese are a juggernaut - they will rule the world through economic might backed up by a military effort just to keep the yanks under control.

They own the Pacific, have control over the port in Darwin, own big cattle stations, milk processing companies and also seem to have many politicians on their payroll.

You had better get your kids learning Chinese at school - it may help them big time when the screaming yellow hoard arrive on your door step.

Disclaimer: My great grandfather was Chinese who came out here from Hong Kong during the gold rush era.

That means I should be 1/8th Chinese but DNA tests show I only have 8%

I hope that is enough to save me from the re-education camps comrade

Look at the Jap motorbikes 1968 and on to 1980's say nothing rubbish about them when one looks to what the UK or USA ect were making, but look at the bikes China make total 3rd rate rubbish !
The Cars from China are not all as bad as people make out tho, a brother had one of the first diesel Great Wall 4x4 yes had some problems and warranty was worthless but for the price well it was not so bad. a mate had the same looking Holden 4x4 at the time and bagged the great wall no end, but I would have the GW any day for the price over the pos Holden 4x4 he had base model crap, more power but so what it's a 4X4 not a racing car and the manual box in the GW was magic and the Holden it was a 3rd rate joke of a box pathetic rubbish that cut the engine out if you change to fast, just to save the box from blowing up.

China will wipe the floor with the rest of the world economically, it's becoming so advanced like Nazi Germany became making the rest of the world look like backward yobbos. as we spiral into out of control debt and business can not compete due to government regulations trying to wipe them all out and a generation of drop kicks that have no work ethic, as they turn up if they feel like it, not to mention claim we are a rich Country don't you know, so she will be right. they can not see past there own nose.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Correct. The industry was sweating big time and I remember the elation at the Tier 1 supplier where I worked when the AU programme was announced. Prior to the announcement it was no certainty that there was going to be another Falcon as 'One Ford' strategy had been released and Falcon was not part of it.

One Ford was a decade before AU came out. It had no relevance to getting the AU approved.

And originally the Falcon was part of one ford, to be on the Global RWD platform. But the GFC put an end to that.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

One Ford was a decade before AU came out. It had no relevance to getting the AU approved.

And originally the Falcon was part of one ford, to be on the Global RWD platform. But the GFC put an end to that.

I don't wish to start a silly argument, but I remember quite clearly going to the AU release in 1998 & Ford were going on that the AU was the first salvo in the One Ford strategy.

The GFC was around 10 years after that.

Dr Terry

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I don't wish to start a silly argument, but I remember quite clearly going to the AU release in 1998 & Ford were going on that the AU was the first salvo in the One Ford strategy.

The GFC was around 10 years after that.

Dr Terry

That's odd, considering it wasn't used until Alan Mullaly brought the term in after he joined in 2006. He was the one who wanted to put more vehicles on common platforms, and Global RWD was supposed to be one of them. The GFC in 2008 put an end the GRWD, but spawned the CD platform etc.

I certainly had never heard the term One Ford internally till after that time.

[Sprintey]

Yep some good comments.

Cav my reading is the Chinese have a history of expansion and then imploding in on themselves. With over 40Tn of debt, and bad debts accelerating to the extent some of their State Owned Enterprises are defaulting, I'd suggest looking for spanners in the machinery. It's not too long ago it was the Japanese buying up all of Australia and being the next unstoppable power, soon after they copped 3 lost decades (as they did not write the debts of their bubble off) with no end in sight. Behind the scenes, many companies are shifting their supply chains currently.

US pivot is to the Pacific, and a comparison of the map in July 1941 to now sees the US far further forward deployed than in Roosevelt's time. It would be a mistake to write off the current superpower, they have a habit of rising to the occasion and summoning vast resolve, the last time they'd just gone through the Great Depression. This time around there are many independent smaller nations that may have some disquiet to the recent expansion.

One thing for sure, the current globalism (and cheap goods) have peaked and as we see trade spats, tariffs etc go up, it will be an end for this cheap produce being readily available. Trump just knackered the WTO appeals court, and countries will go back to individual negotiation on trade.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

That's odd, considering it wasn't used until Alan Mullaly brought the term in after he joined in 2006. He was the one who wanted to put more vehicles on common platforms, and Global RWD was supposed to be one of them. The GFC in 2008 put an end the GRWD, but spawned the CD platform etc.

I certainly had never heard the term One Ford internally till after that time.

Where that earlier One Ford term came from was an attempt to unify all of
Ford's larger vehicles around the premium DEW Platform. But what Ken Coors,
Ford Large vehicle director discovered was that one by one, the various large
vehicle lead engineers rejected DEW as being too costly or impractical for the
particular vehicle needs.So in the end, they just gave the Ford Aus guys time
on Ford's cray super computer and sent them on their way...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Where that earlier One Ford term came from was an attempt to unify all of
Ford's larger vehicles around the premium DEW Platform. But what Ken Coors,
Ford Large vehicle director discovered was that one by one, the various large
vehicle lead engineers rejected DEW as being too costly or impractical for the
particular vehicle needs.So in the end, they just gave the Ford Aus guys time
on Ford's cray super computer and sent them on their way...

I do recall seeing a Lincoln LS coming out of the old RDC offices many years ago. Cause the guy driving it hit the gutter

So they clearly evaluated it. But being the platform for Lincoln LS, and Jag S type, it was heavily aluminium suspension pieces etc and an expensive platform to build. Too expensive for Falcon.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I do recall seeing a Lincoln LS coming out of the old RDC offices many years ago. Cause the guy driving it hit the gutter

So they clearly evaluated it. But being the platform for Lincoln LS, and Jag S type, it was heavily aluminium suspension pieces etc and an expensive platform to build. Too expensive for Falcon.

Absolutely and that was the comment form the out set. DEW couldn't load the Modular V8 from below on a production like either, so they had to use the Jag V8. Hilarious that Mustang group at the time was forced to use part of the floorpan.

[Warrenk]

How the mighty has fallen. Another factor why Holden/GM probably won't be around in a year or two.
https://thenewdaily.com.au/life/auto...ar-holden/amp/

[Crazy Dazz]

I worked for a company that operated a coal mine in a remote corner of Borneo.
There was no other industry or employer within a hundred miles. There was small scale fishing, and some really hard subsistence agriculture trying to make things grow on what was mostly bare rock. Prior to the mining boom, the coal price was actually tanking, and we were going to put the mine on C&M. The local Governor unilaterally granted us a series of massive tax breaks in order to keep the mine open.
When the price rebounded, the taxes came back, and brought some friends.
If you want to invest hundreds of millions building a mine, or factories, or a smelter, most countries (including USA) do what they can to assist and smooth the process.

But Australia has inherited the old British ideology, where the role of governments is to stop things happening.
Australia COULD have an auto industry, still. We could restart tomorrow, and do it profitably, exporting cars across the Indian and Pacific. In fact our natural advantages in many areas would make it relatively simple, if our governments would do even a fraction of what other nations do.

[roddy1960]

Been a while since I've been on this thread and it's probably been mentioned before in previous pages of posts but is there much chance that if the actual Holden nameplate disappears will Chevrolet even remotely consider selling a bigger run of targeted RHD vehicles like HSV currently do now . I guess if that was to take place it'd be a name change to Chevrolet Special Vehicles or something along those lines .

My point is that if Holden actually folds as a company in this country at least for the absolute diehard GM fans there would be a correlation still there to the parent company or are the days of brand loyalty over too . Probably are for many . A vehicle is just a lump of metal , plastic, rubber ,glass and fluids,nothing more .

So sad to think the tribal Ford v Holden battles , the rivalry , the stirring, excitement of checking out the latest Holden to hit the market is all but gone.

Just doesn't feel right.

[Syndrome]

Holden total sales by year for the last decade:

2019: 43,176
2018: 60,751
2017: 90,306
2016: 94,308
2015: 102,951
2014: 106,092
2013: 112,059
2012: 114,665
2011: 126,095
2010: 132,923

[hayseed]

https://www.betootaadvocate.com/unca...-a-new-holden/

[dunga]

Originally Posted by hayseed

https://www.betootaadvocate.com/unca...-a-new-holden/

Yes but you get 7 years free servicing but I wonder who will service your Holden in say a few if they don't exist bit of a gamble me thinks .

[csv8]

Wheels January 2020 has an article on Holden's future.
"Holden put the house on black and red came up" sums it up....

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by csv8

Wheels January 2020 has an article on Holden's future.
"Holden put the house on black and red came up" sums it up....

I keep reading the comments on line, they’re all the same “HOLDEN should do this, Holden should do that, they should develop(insert some wet dream here)”
The truth is, they are now a sales and marketing company, they can’t DO anything. Head office has stated they are exiting RHD globally, they don’t have any viable product going forward.
The only reason they survived the GFC was that GMH at the time was profitable while the market still bought large cars and GM was broke. This bought them 10 years here.
That’s it, there’s now no substance behind the brand.

[blue sleeper]

Originally Posted by csv8

Wheels January 2020 has an article on Holden's future.
"Holden put the house on black and red came up" sums it up....

So who will die first Wheels or Holden? lol

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by blue sleeper

So who will die first Wheels or Holden? lol

I've been asking that question for a number of years. (Modern) MOTOR and Wheels have for years come from the same publisher. How much longer will they persist with two titles in the same market?

[lra]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

How much longer will they persist with two titles in the same market?...……………...

……….. with a limited choice of subjects and nothing worth reading.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

I keep reading the comments on line, they’re all the same “HOLDEN should do this, Holden should do that, they should develop(insert some wet dream here)”
The truth is, they are now a sales and marketing company, they can’t DO anything. Head office has stated they are exiting RHD globally, they don’t have any viable product going forward.
The only reason they survived the GFC was that GMH at the time was profitable while the market still bought large cars and GM was broke. This bought them 10 years here.
That’s it, there’s now no substance behind the brand.

Actually Holden was gone during GFC if not for the Australian Government agreeing to provide a guarantee for it's line of credit with Comm Bank and others.

Probably also part explains why the Abbot government finally decided to stop supporting the car industry, or more specifically Holden, as up to then it had received more grants or various forms of assistance than Toyota and Ford Aust combined. This extra Federal funding/grants support near the end was why VF was able to get such a level of upgrade from VE to VF while Ford struggled with FG to FG-X.

American-born Mr Reuss – a former Holden managing director between 2008 and 2009 and son of a former GM president – is best known for his role in keeping Holden alive when its parent company collapsed financially in the global financial crisis.

https://www.goauto.com.au/news/holde...-21/74936.html

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

I've been asking that question for a number of years. (Modern) MOTOR and Wheels have for years come from the same publisher. How much longer will they persist with two titles in the same market?

working in the printing industry, its hard to see how many magazines can stay profitable. Its a vicious downward spiral. they are mostly funded by the advertisers in the mags (which is why many magazines just seem like advertorials with a few articles these days). As the reach reduces (the number of people buying them) the value to the advertiser reduces so they pay less or leave. So then the print run gets reduced and rinse and repeat.

[Eurotrash]

There are only 3 options that I think will save Holden.

The first being GM selling Holden to PSA and sell all Opels as Holdens, as done in previous years. At least then Holden will have a full range of RHD vehicles to choose from, including LCV's, PSA would have access to a much larger dealer network, BUT, there is no Ute in their lineup. With the recent merging of PSA and FCA, that problem could be overcome within months!

Secondly, import the Chevrolet range of Chinese vehicles, but again, badge them as Holden. Chevrolet in China has a huge range of cars to choose from, but would GM in China, SAIC GM, be even bothered to tool up for RHD markets?

Thirdly, retire the Holden name and just import whatever GM branded vehicle they import and sell it under that brand name. If people want a Holden, they'll then go to a GM dealership, not Holden, selling a range of different branded GM vehicles, which will be strictly Utes and SUV's. But again, will GM be even bothered to tool up for RHD markets?

And that brings us to the next question? Does GM even have RHD in their plans at all going forward? If not, it's goodbye Holden anyway!

[naddis01]

I think the option they will choose is retire the Holden name and exit Australia completely.

[blue sleeper]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

I've been asking that question for a number of years. (Modern) MOTOR and Wheels have for years come from the same publisher. How much longer will they persist with two titles in the same market?

I personally hope it's MOTOR it's the only one that could possibly have longevity. There is no non-car enthusiasts left to buy mags about white goods cars.

I used to have a collection of hundreds of car mags, most of them went in recycling....

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by blue sleeper

I used to have a collection of hundreds of car mags, most of them went in recycling....

Silly. You can get good money for old printed material. I have been buying (Modern) MOTOR since 1986 and have started back filling my collection which now is almost complete from 1969.

Back to the topic.....

[blue sleeper]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Silly. You can get good money for old printed material. I have been buying (Modern) MOTOR since 1986 and have started back filling my collection which now is almost complete from 1969.

Back to the topic.....

Probably but I didn't get defeated by a retired fat dude...... Yeah old folks here remember your original thumbnail....

But anyway, I can't see Holden lasting much longer given the products they now have, as well as not really having a true parent company. On that note, what happens in the long term with warranty and parts? Do the dealers have to stock 10 years in advance?

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Yep some good comments.

Cav my reading is the Chinese have a history of expansion and then imploding in on themselves. With over 40Tn of debt, and bad debts accelerating to the extent some of their State Owned Enterprises are defaulting, I'd suggest looking for spanners in the machinery. It's not too long ago it was the Japanese buying up all of Australia and being the next unstoppable power, soon after they copped 3 lost decades (as they did not write the debts of their bubble off) with no end in sight. Behind the scenes, many companies are shifting their supply chains currently.

US pivot is to the Pacific, and a comparison of the map in July 1941 to now sees the US far further forward deployed than in Roosevelt's time. It would be a mistake to write off the current superpower, they have a habit of rising to the occasion and summoning vast resolve, the last time they'd just gone through the Great Depression. This time around there are many independent smaller nations that may have some disquiet to the recent expansion.

One thing for sure, the current globalism (and cheap goods) have peaked and as we see trade spats, tariffs etc go up, it will be an end for this cheap produce being readily available. Trump just knackered the WTO appeals court, and countries will go back to individual negotiation on trade.

Exactly. The Globalists thought it was business as usual with Hillary winning the 2016 election, they never thought she'd loose. Except, she did, Trump is not a career politician beholden to anyone, he's systematically restoring businesses in the US, people are getting their jobs back, their economy is going great. Trump's brought vaChina to its knees, they're having to root out their deep state operatives in order to avoid further tariffs which only hurt itself.

Australia on the other hand is going down the gurgler, aided and abetted by all the political parties.

[blue sleeper]

Originally Posted by Romulus

Exactly. The Globalists thought it was business as usual with Hillary winning the 2016 election, they never thought she'd loose. Except, she did, Trump is not a career politician beholden to anyone, he's systematically restoring businesses in the US, people are getting their jobs back, their economy is going great. Trump's brought vaChina to its knees, they're having to root out their deep state operatives in order to avoid further tariffs which only hurt itself.

Australia on the other hand is going down the gurgler, aided and abetted by all the political parties.

The Button Plan ended up being the nuclear button plan to the entire car industry here.....