The decline of fossil fuels - and how that effects car enthusiasts

[CyberWasp]

The stupid thing is that modern combustion engines are only approx 30% efficient.
So that leaves 70% for improvement which would happen gradually over time.

[JasonACT]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

If this mob here on AFF think I'm mad, then they will think you are madder!........

Yeah, but when I said "I think about..." it was pretty much triggered by the content in this thread - and I promptly forgot what I wrote in my post (and slept like a baby) before re-reading it just now.

(Much like I quickly forgot what the BF guys are doing in the FG thread.)

[mad2]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

The stupid thing is that modern combustion engines are only approx 30% efficient.
So that leaves 70% for improvement which would happen gradually over time.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

The stupid thing is that modern combustion engines are only approx 30% efficient.
So that leaves 70% for improvement which would happen gradually over time.

Toyota hit 40% with a 2.0 litre back in 2018, pretty sure another hit 44-45% recently.

[XRFutura]

The current f1 engines are the most efficient at something like 52% and by 2026 they will be moving to efuel.

[ivorya]

While we don't like it, it's happening at such a rapid pace.

Like i'd read earlier, ICE engines have had over 100yrs of tech thrown at them - EV's have had (lets say) 20yrs, and realisticly - it's the battery packs which is where the dev is going.

Merc have just showcased their 1000km+ battery.
New li/S battery dev have shown a 5time increase in energy density hitting their magic targets.

Toyota have proved their H2 cell to drive over 1000kms with 5-10mins fill time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONICQ9Xcaug
Trucks/Bus/Train are where i see alot of H2 cell vehicles

I think we'll all miss the theatre of ICE. The sound, the shake of the vehicle, the knowing your driving something alive.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by ivorya

While we don't like it, it's happening at such a rapid pace.

Like i'd read earlier, ICE engines have had over 100yrs of tech thrown at them - EV's have had (lets say) 20yrs, and realisticly - it's the battery packs which is where the dev is going.

20 years is a bit of a stretch, Electric cars have been around since before the 1900's

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

20 years is a bit of a stretch, Electric cars have been around since before the 1900's

Correct, I'm pretty sure they predate internal combustion engines.

Trams on wheels

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by GASWAGON

I'll take a Mustang EV anyday over the Hydrogen Beemer!

sure the mustang EV will see the 7 series off at the lights. But..

lets look at something more real world (and they do this stuff on Topgear etc). if there were a race between Victoria & NSW at legal speed limits. who would get there sooner, and lets assume there were adequate filling stations locations for both.

from what I could find(correct me if im wrong guys)
Mustang EV range 370km
V12 hydrogen 7 series range 480km

The beemer can do it in one stop, and im going to assume the fill up time is a lot quicker.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Toyota hit 40% with a 2.0 litre back in 2018, pretty sure another hit 44-45% recently.

and remembering nothing can ever be 100% efficient, there is always a loss with any energy transfer

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

sure the mustang EV will see the 7 series off at the lights. But..

lets look at something more real world (and they do this stuff on Topgear etc). if there were a race between Victoria & NSW at legal speed limits. who would get there sooner, and lets assume there were adequate filling stations locations for both.

from what I could find(correct me if im wrong guys)
Mustang EV range 370km
V12 hydrogen 7 series range 480km

The beemer can do it in one stop, and im going to assume the fill up time is a lot quicker.

Keeping in mind Hydrogen 7 series of 2007 vintage does 50L/100km on hydrogen.

The Hydrogen 7 was based on the 760Li model and featured two tanks: one for hydrogen and one for gasoline. The 6-liter V12 engine under the hood was modified so that it could use both fuels. Unfortunately, the efficiency the car had on hydrogen was extremely low, returning about 5.6 mpg (50 l/100km) on average, mostly due to the difference in energy density between petrol and hydrogen. Even so, the green character of the car was evident as CO2 emissions were eliminated completely.

[Junkyard-Dog]

Electrically powered locomotives certainly predate their ICE powered counterparts.

As far as automobiles go, Gustave Pierre Trouvé created the first electric automobile with his tricycle in 1881. Five years before Karl Benz manufactured his first Motorwagen, which was the first production automobile.



Interesting to note that both were three-wheeled designs.

It should also be noted that the British were experimenting with steam-powered, self-propelled vehicles from the early 19th century. This experimentation became rather extensive in the 1860's and by the end of that decade, the basic form of the steam traction engine had been developed. Steam traction engines were the first widespread, viable automobiles however, steam-powered horseless carriages were also constructed in the 1860's - predating their electric/ICE powered counterparts by decades...

An example of an early steam traction engine, an 1870 Cooper traction engine:



Sylvester Roper drove around Boston in a steam car he had invented in 1863, commonly referred to as the Roper steam carriage model of 1870:



It could be argued that ICE-powered cars were the last of the bunch to be developed. Rudolf Diesel didn't even start working on his theories until the early 1890s and the first fully-functional diesel engine wasn't built until 1896.

Steam powered vehicles led the way.

[Franco Cozzo]

Ford model T killed the electric car through competition - it was 1/3 price of an EV back in 1908 (that bastard Henry Ford )

If you asked the average American what the future of cars was in 1900 they'd probably have told you it was going to be EV.

Mind you sealed lead acid batteries have been around since 1859, and we haven't come a long way with battery technology in the last bazillion years - so why are we all of a sudden going to jump exponentially in 5 years?

Or is it empty promises poindexters from the technology world the ones making all these promises they don't have to keep?

Can't even make a phone that lasts longer than a days worth of use with current lithium ion technology, so I doubt the bigger variant in cars is going to exponentially change in the next 5 years.

Then when you talk about hydrogen cars, the stupidity of using electricity to convert water to hydrogen, storing and transporting it, then putting it into a car which turns it back into electricity isn't exactly real efficient compared to just getting the power from your wall and charging the battery in your EV.

The only advantage I see there is storing hydrogen is a lot lighter than batteries of current technology - might work for commercial vehicles where weight and distance are cruical

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Ford model T killed the electric car through competition - it was 1/3 price of an EV back in 1908 (that bastard Henry Ford )

If you asked the average American what the future of cars was in 1900 they'd probably have told you it was going to be EV.

Mind you sealed lead acid batteries have been around since 1859, and we haven't come a long way with battery technology in the last bazillion years - so why are we all of a sudden going to jump exponentially in 5 years?

Or is it empty promises poindexters from the technology world the ones making all these promises they don't have to keep?

Can't even make a phone that lasts longer than a days worth of use with current lithium ion technology, so I doubt the bigger variant in cars is going to exponentially change in the next 5 years.

Then when you talk about hydrogen cars, the stupidity of using electricity to convert water to hydrogen, storing and transporting it, then putting it into a car which turns it back into electricity isn't exactly real efficient compared to just getting the power from your wall and charging the battery in your EV.

The only advantage I see there is storing hydrogen is a lot lighter than batteries of current technology - might work for commercial vehicles where weight and distance are cruical

Maybe back then EV meant something else?
Maybe EQUINE VARIANT.........

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Ford model T killed the electric car through competition - it was 1/3 price of an EV back in 1908 (that bastard Henry Ford )

If you asked the average American what the future of cars was in 1900 they'd probably have told you it was going to be EV.

Mind you sealed lead acid batteries have been around since 1859, and we haven't come a long way with battery technology in the last bazillion years - so why are we all of a sudden going to jump exponentially in 5 years?

Or is it empty promises poindexters from the technology world the ones making all these promises they don't have to keep?

Can't even make a phone that lasts longer than a days worth of use with current lithium ion technology, so I doubt the bigger variant in cars is going to exponentially change in the next 5 years.

Then when you talk about hydrogen cars, the stupidity of using electricity to convert water to hydrogen, storing and transporting it, then putting it into a car which turns it back into electricity isn't exactly real efficient compared to just getting the power from your wall and charging the battery in your EV.

The only advantage I see there is storing hydrogen is a lot lighter than batteries of current technology - might work for commercial vehicles where weight and distance are cruical

Any idea what the life cycle/recharge life is on these lithium super batteries, I mean it alright going electric, but no battery life cycle stats are ever mentioned here in the thread, just capacity mainly!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

Any idea what the life cycle/recharge life is on these lithium super batteries, I mean it alright going electric, but no battery life cycle stats are ever mentioned here in the thread, just capacity mainly!

I doubt it's very good, the same **** in phones, 12 months later you need to charge it earlier and earlier because it flogs out with moderate use.

That's why I buy cheapie phones and replace them every 18 months or so, the batteries don't hold up. Doesn't matter if it's a flagship or sub $300 crapola.

Be interesting to see a 5-10 year lifespan of a battery in EVs and how much range they lose.

Put 230,000km on my Focus and it did 5.7L/100km when it was new and 230,000km later it still does 5.7L/100km 11 years later doing the same commute.

[JasonACT]

You can guess, you get about 500 charges before you start to notice the battery going (a year and a half with a daily used/charged phone)... But with cars, you get around 500k out of a charge.

So 500x500 = 250,000ks, before you start to really notice it dying.

[T3rminator]

Garrett was working on a bolt on E turbo. Apparently they were aiming to make it available to the public in 2021. Not sure if Covid has delayed the launch. Anyone know what happened with that?

So what if we could make e turbos work? Could that extend the life of fossil fuel cars? Smaller, more efficient, engines, but e turbos to get the power and torque needed.

I guess the challenge comes back to charge and battery, like EVs.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Garrett was working on a bolt on E turbo. Apparently they were aiming to make it available to the public in 2021. Not sure if Covid has delayed the launch. Anyone know what happened with that?

So what if we could make e turbos work? Could that extend the life of fossil fuel cars? Smaller, more efficient, engines, but e turbos to get the power and torque needed.

I guess the challenge comes back to charge and battery, like EVs.

Without watching the video one assumes would need 48V electrical system as per 'mild hybrids' because of the amount of current that would take.

Its not something you would see on cars with 12V electrical systems.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Without watching the video one assumes would need 48V electrical system as per 'mild hybrids' because of the amount of current that would take.

Its not something you would see on cars with 12V electrical systems.

You've just destroyed my 3v e turbo dream in 2 sentences.

[Junkyard-Dog]

Maybe they should start making a nuclear powered Camry. 500,000kms before you need to refuel - just make sure you don't get into an accident and it'll be fine.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

You've just destroyed my 3v e turbo dream in 2 sentences.

Borg Warner have a 12V e-turbo... https://www.borgwarner.com/technolog...g-technologies

[Junkyard-Dog]

Originally Posted by b0son

Borg Warner have a 12V e-turbo... https://www.borgwarner.com/technolog...g-technologies

According to an article I just read on wired.com, the Borg Warner e-booster:

"It's driven by electricity, so it spins up to 70,000 rpm in just three-tenths of a second, providing a boost until the turbocharger gets up to speed. BorgWarner says the cantaloupe-sized device, combined with a standard turbocharger, improves torque by 85 percent at 1,500 rpm, and by 55 percent at 2,000 rpm."

That's quite impressive.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by b0son

Borg Warner have a 12V e-turbo... https://www.borgwarner.com/technolog...g-technologies

No electrical specifications or anything of substance either - looks like it has to be used in conjunction with typical turbo as well.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Keeping in mind Hydrogen 7 series of 2007 vintage does 50L/100km on hydrogen.

must have a big tank then.. perhaps thats why it was done on the 7 series

[Junkyard-Dog]

According to their product specification sheet regarding the eTurbo by BW, it's available in 48-450 VDC versions. I imagine these would be very useful in the transport/logistics industry.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

That's why I buy cheapie phones and replace them every 18 months or so, the batteries don't hold up. Doesn't matter if it's a flagship or sub $300 crapola.

Not always the case. My iPhone6 just had its 6 birthday.

Purchased it new a few months after their release. It gets used for business. I charge it every 2nd night (used to be every 3rd !!).

I'll probably replace it in the next 12 months.

Dr Terry

BTW I get your point re EV car batteries, it will become a major thing when doing 2nd hand vehicle valuations.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

must have a big tank then.. perhaps thats why it was done on the 7 series

Note that you buy hydrogen on weight rather than volume like unleaded from the servo - its also stored in the tank at circa 5000-10,000 PSI.

Someone who knows science crap and numbers, whats 20kg of hydrogen in liters?

Here's another interesting comparison,

Compare energy density of hydrogen by weight compared to unleaded, then compare it by volume, the former keeps being used as a marketing point but its telling half a story.

Hydrogen is also very light in comparison to unleaded.

Can't remember buying 38.25KG of diesel, but I've bought 45L plenty of times.

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

According to their product specification sheet regarding the eTurbo by BW, it's available in 48-450 VDC versions. I imagine these would be very useful in the transport/logistics industry.

450V DC makes sense because the current draw massively drops, even with 48V DC it would too.

12V DC - there's probably a reason it needs assistance from a regular turbo to be in the system and this extra thing just helps along rather than runs the whole show.

I'm not calling bull**** on the product itself - I reckon its a fantastic idea, anything where you can **** off mechanical controlled variations for electrical is better as you get much more precise control over something, but I'm suspect of a practical implementation, knowing one of the limitations on a 12V DC system is going to be current draw if you tried to replicate an electrical variation of a turbo.

Imagine how much air a GT3576 on an FG XR6T moves and the forces involved in doing it, now replicate that with an electric motor driving the compressor instead of exhaust gasses moving the turbine.

Then do the same exercise on a 15L Cummins engine.

[jpd80]

Comparing Ford Escape hybrid batteries 2005 versus 2020
The 2005 was located in the rear tyre well where the 2020 battery is located under the front passenger seat.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6xAHINU...jpg&name=large

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Comparing Ford Escape hybrid batteries 2005 versus 2020


image

Further context around it - is the Gen 1 NiCD or NiMH and the current generation LiIon?

What are their capacities?