Confirmation, v8 commodore was killed in 2011

au2000 · 11-02-2018, 06:30 PM

Article on motoring.com confirms that holden had decided on dropping the v8 commodore back in 2011

https://www.motoring.com.au/holden-a...n-2011-110974/

marty351 · 11-02-2018, 06:53 PM

All those CHEV badges have now become legitimised.

jpd80 · 11-02-2018, 06:55 PM

Originally, the plan was to continue manufacturing with ZB Commodore, an SUV (Equinox)
and to continue VFII as a V8 only special for enthusiasts.

roddy1960 · 11-02-2018, 08:25 PM

Interesting and concerning at the same time . Keeping that decision from all the loyal Commodore V8 fans especially for that long seems wrong somehow.
I wonder would Ford have made the same sort of decisions too regardless of sales for Falcon with Mustang plans for global release on the cards a few years out from the 2015 model to be built for both left and right hand drive markets globally. Maybe why the LHD Chevy SS (Commodore) was never even remotely advertised as it deserved in the U.S. either with knowledge the Commodore generally was being replaced with the world market car no matter what.

lra · 11-02-2018, 10:01 PM

I think that Falcon and Commodore's fate was sealed a long time before the announcements to shut up shop were made.
At least we now know the date for Holden, and that explains why there were no 'real' plans for development of a new car. ZB and Equinox manufacturing was smoke and mirrors, and only till 2022, even if approved .

commodorenutt · 11-02-2018, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Originally, the plan was to continue manufacturing with ZB Commodore, an SUV (Equinox)
and to continue VFII as a V8 only special for enthusiasts.

Working for a supply partner (globally) to many OEMs, tier & subtier suppliers, I've been privy to a lot of development work at the "nuts & bolts" level, but rarely get to see what would become until just a few months before release. I've see some really good test mules - some well hidden drivelines in mundane "Grandpa" cars that would fool almost anyone until you lift the bonnet (or peer in through 5% tint to see the rack of computer gear where the back seat should be).

I had the bittersweet experience of visiting a large supplier, and the GMH plant, a few days after the Pontiac "project" died suddenly during the GFC. Talk was on then that the VE (and upcoming VF) would be the last RWD, and a few of the older engineers at this supplier commented "yeah, like the Camira was going to replace the commodore, so the VL replacement would be a bigger Camira" (thankfully the only part of that to come true was the Camira 2L into the VN for NZ). They didn't believe it, and having been up close to VE development, quickly noted "the platform is a giant leap forward, and should sustain another generation" - but what they didn't count on was the yanks needing to do it in the USA - they couldn't be shown up by Aussies, nor could they send that amount of money back down under again (despite GMH sending hundreds of millions to the USA in the good times when they were doing 600 cars per day).

One discussion point that day was the upcoming PPV Caprice - which Holden pinned hopes on - selling 20,000 of them to the US would have been a decent earner, and one comment was he'd heard from a senior Holden person that even if the next-gen went FWD, the success of the PPV would show that there would be a market to keep the "aging" RWD platform, and still produce the Caprice PPV, hire cars, cabs, and enthusiast vehicles from it - economically, for both local and export markets. They cited the Ford Crown Vic as the perfect example - it carried on more than a decade longer than it should due to the law enforcement, taxi, and other government agency fleet business deals, with production volumes that would be extremely profitable for Holden (if the AU$ stayed below 80c - it was around 60c at the time).

But one thing stuck in my mind. Way back in July 2006, when Holden launched the VE on that Sunday morning, in a pioneering live webcast, what did they say? They clearly stated it would be the last Commodore to be fully developed in Australia. Maybe we all wanted to ignore it at the time, but the writing was clearly on the wall back then, for the "local" Commodore.

When the GFC hit, my global bosses predicted Australia would have no car industry within a year or 2, and we should look at other markets to offset the impending losses. I consider some of them to be pretty smart people, who have seen these patterns before. Thankfully they were a little hasty, and the local industry carried on another 7 years or so.

I think we all knew it was coming long before the media told us.

Syndrome · 12-02-2018, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lra

I think that Falcon and Commodore's fate was sealed a long time before the announcements to shut up shop were made.
At least we now know the date for Holden, and that explains why there were no 'real' plans for development of a new car. ZB and Equinox manufacturing was smoke and mirrors, and only till 2022, even if approved .

2007 was the year it dawned on me that it was all over, red rover for the local auto manufacturing industry.

Bossxr8 · 13-02-2018, 03:01 PM

2007/8 was the year Falcon got it's death warrant. The GFC and Ford axing the global rwd platform to save cash during the financial crisis was the death of it. But would it have even gone ahead after large car sales tanked a couple of years later, or would Falcon have been axed anyway and never shifted onto the GRWD like it was supposed to be?

Interceptor · 13-02-2018, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marty351

All those CHEV badges have now become legitimised.

ZB Commodore is a Buick over in the US

Sprint XR8 · 14-02-2018, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

2007/8 was the year Falcon got it's death warrant. The GFC and Ford axing the global rwd platform to save cash during the financial crisis was the death of it. But would it have even gone ahead after large car sales tanked a couple of years later, or would Falcon have been axed anyway and never shifted onto the GRWD like it was supposed to be?

It was all over after Mulally's meeting with the Rudd government in August 2008.
Due to the GFC Ford wanted a pause in planned tariff reductions.
In return Ford Australia would get Focus production for Asia Pacific export and Falcon would be integrated into One Ford with a imported V6.
Rudd fixed in his free trade ideology refused. Resulting in Focus production switching to Thailand and the axing of the Falcon V6 program and planned update.

commodorenutt · 14-02-2018, 07:30 AM

The V6 was also killed when our clever Aussie engineers managed to pull a rabbit out of the hat with the cast-iron 4.0L to get it to meet the latest emissions rules - which were initially seen as too tough. Most of it was due to the warm-up cycle emissions - no problem for alloy engines that warm up very quickly, and evenly, but very difficult for a cast-iron block.

Australia's very own Ford engine was (at the time) the ONLY cast-iron block passenger car engine in the world that met the new standards - a feat that many said could not be done.

That's just one example of how good our Aussie engineers were.
(Oh, and the aspirated D35 V6 was found lacking in the torque department too).

OzJavelin · 14-02-2018, 11:50 AM

Shame Holden never worked out that most people were buying Commodores not because they were the best cars, but because they (like Falcons) were something no one else made .. big, RWD, in multiple configurations, with a V8 option, cheap(ish) to service/repair and an affordable new price.
Now they are just peddling stuff dozens of other companys make better, cheaper, or with more "prestige".
As far as I'm concerned they are just an "also ran" now, nothing to differenciate them in the marketplace ..

Dr Terry · 14-02-2018, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Now they are just peddling stuff dozens of other companys make better, cheaper, or with more "prestige".
As far as I'm concerned they are just an "also ran" now, nothing to differenciate them in the marketplace ..

I think I would hold off on that opinion until you get a test drive of the new ZB. In 230 kW AWD form with a 9-sp auto it drives very well. I don't think anything else on the Aussie market can match it especially at the $$$.

Dr Terry

Bossxr8 · 14-02-2018, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

The V6 was also killed when our clever Aussie engineers managed to pull a rabbit out of the hat with the cast-iron 4.0L to get it to meet the latest emissions rules - which were initially seen as too tough. Most of it was due to the warm-up cycle emissions - no problem for alloy engines that warm up very quickly, and evenly, but very difficult for a cast-iron block.

Australia's very own Ford engine was (at the time) the ONLY cast-iron block passenger car engine in the world that met the new standards - a feat that many said could not be done.

That's just one example of how good our Aussie engineers were.
(Oh, and the aspirated D35 V6 was found lacking in the torque department too).

Don't think that is completely accurate as the previous Audi RS3 and TT RS had an iron block inline 5, and that would have been Euro 5 at a minimum. Not to mention plenty of diesels are still iron block and Euro 5 and 6. Although iron blocks are becoming less common. GM still make iron block LS engines for light trucks and SUV's too.

The problem with our I6 wasn't making it pass future emissions tests, more the cost in R&D getting it to that point AND making it maintain that level of emissions performance for 160,000 km, as per Euro 5 requirements. The DI version could pass Euro 6 but the costs getting it to pass the km requirement, which I believe is ever higher than 160k (200k?) would have been very high, with not many engines manufacturered to spread those costs over. I think a lot of the work required to get it to pass the km requirement has to do with the engine oil and the levels of zinc, phosphorus, sulphur etc which degrade the cat convertors over time. And those chemicals reduce engine wear. So reducing those levels reduces engine durability. It's a real balancing act.

lovford · 15-02-2018, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I think I would hold off on that opinion until you get a test drive of the new ZB. In 230 kW AWD form with a 9-sp auto it drives very well. I don't think anything else on the Aussie market can match it especially at the $$$.

Dr Terry

ZB and Vf weigh the same, i am fairly sure that VF is only 25 kg heavier.

VXR 235kw, 381nm, 139ptw____VFSS 304kw, 570nm, 178ptw

90% of holdens sold in the last 3 year were V8's. And now they think we will be happy with 381 nm in a heavy 4wd car. They keep saying the VXR is for the V8 buyer, but its slower than the more basic models because of its 4wd. They must be ***n joking. At that $$$, what, its 55,000.

commodorenutt · 15-02-2018, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovford

90% of holdens sold in the last 3 year were V8's.

No they weren't. Whilst they did get up to 25% V8s in some months during the last 12 months of production, and close to 33% when all the Motorsport series came through, they generally hoevered between 20-25% V8 sales.

A far cry from "90%".....

commodorenutt · 15-02-2018, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Don't think that is completely accurate as the previous Audi RS3 and TT RS had an iron block inline 5, and that would have been Euro 5 at a minimum. Not to mention plenty of diesels are still iron block and Euro 5 and 6. Although iron blocks are becoming less common. GM still make iron block LS engines for light trucks and SUV's too.

It's what a Ford Geelong R&D guy told me in 2011.
The iron-block LS doesn't apply, as it's not used in passenger cars (SUVs don't have the same tough rules either) - and I did say passenger car engine - the only LS used in passenger cars is alloy. The 5 is a turbo - very different warm-up charecteristics.

Maybe I should have been clearer. It was the only naturally aspirated, petrol injected, spark ignition, cast iron block, passenger car engine, in the world, to meet those new requirements.

Still a fantastic effort by the team in Geelong, no matter what way you look at it.

Dr Terry · 15-02-2018, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovford

ZB and Vf weigh the same, i am fairly sure that VF is only 25 kg heavier.

VXR 235kw, 381nm, 139ptw____VFSS 304kw, 570nm, 178ptw

90% of holdens sold in the last 3 year were V8's. And now they think we will be happy with 381 nm in a heavy 4wd car. They keep saying the VXR is for the V8 buyer, but its slower than the more basic models because of its 4wd. They must be ***n joking. At that $$$, what, its 55,000.

I didn't say it was a V8 beater & I'm not talking about outright performance, I said it was a drove very well for the $$$. I was responding to this:- "other companys make better, cheaper, or with more "prestige"."

BTW the AWD V6 starts at just over $40,000. The VXR has all the 'bells & whistles' & is $10,000 more expensive than a V6 AWD Calais Tourer Sportwagon.

I don't work for Holden & I don't sell them, all I am saying is don't slag off on something that you've never driven.

Dr Terry

Bossxr8 · 15-02-2018, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

No they weren't. Whilst they did get up to 25% V8s in some months during the last 12 months of production, and close to 33% when all the Motorsport series came through, they generally hoevered between 20-25% V8 sales.

A far cry from "90%".....

It was more like 40% in the final few years.

commodorenutt · 15-02-2018, 04:49 PM

^^^ Months yes, years no.

lovford · 15-02-2018, 07:51 PM

I remember reading somewhere in the last 3 years ( it may of been months) that 90 % of holden's sold were v8's.

commodorenutt · 15-02-2018, 10:22 PM

3 years ago is 2015.

May 2015 : preview to the updated V8 for VFII, Holden media stated "up to 1/3 of commodores sold are V8s."

October 2015 when the VF2 was released, they stated 50% of private sales were the SV6.

Fleet sales are unlikely to have any sizeable numbers of V8s in them, and they did drop dramatically over the last 5 years, but you only have to look at the number of VF & VFII rental cars, Telstra cars, cop cars etc that are all V6s - so there was still sizeable numbers there - but maybe fleet was as little as 20% of all sales near the end, although it was much higher at the start of VF in 2013. But then if fleet sales are down, and private sales are now the majority , with 50% of private sales being SV6, so that leaves the other 50% as a mix of V6 & V8 Evoke (V6 only), Calais (V6 & V8), Calais V (V6 & V8), SS / SSV (V8 only) and CapriceV (V6 & V8), so whichever way you look at it, the V8 simply can't get anywhere near 90% unless you choose a narrow, convenient window, like the final production week (but I doubt that would still see 90% V8, as quite a few V6s still rolled out too).

Even when the Motorsport editions were being done, they still didn't hit 90% V8s....

Sar4890 · 16-02-2018, 01:45 AM

Such a shame really as the v8 commodore was/ is not a bad bit of kit.

lovford · 16-02-2018, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I didn't say it was a V8 beater & I'm not talking about outright performance, I said it was a drove very well for the $$$. I was responding to this:- "other companys make better, cheaper, or with more "prestige"."

BTW the AWD V6 starts at just over $40,000. The VXR has all the 'bells & whistles' & is $10,000 more expensive than a V6 AWD Calais Tourer Sportwagon.

I don't work for Holden & I don't sell them, all I am saying is don't slag off on something that you've never driven.

Dr Terry

The VXR is marketed at the v8 buyer. Why ???? That's just stupid, considering the car is slower than all other models, except the turbo. SS replacement my ****.

lovford · 16-02-2018, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sar4890

Such a shame really as the v8 commodore was/ is not a bad bit of kit.

That's if you wanted to keep your teeth. FE2 absolute garbage. Had it in a VX SS never bought another holden after that. But a WM statesman with standard suspension is a glorious thing.

Sar4890 · 16-02-2018, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovford

That's if you wanted to keep your teeth. FE2 absolute garbage. Had it in a VX SS never bought another holden after that. But a WM statesman with standard suspension is a glorious thing.

Was it the ride of the fe2 that caused your dislike? Tbh ive never driven VXss but have driven vy vz and almost all the models previous and found the fe2 firm but kept my fillings it might be personal ride preference.

Big_Daz · 16-02-2018, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Shame Holden never worked out that most people were buying Commodores not because they were the best cars, but because they (like Falcons) were something no one else made .. big, RWD, in multiple configurations, with a V8 option, cheap(ish) to service/repair and an affordable new price.
Now they are just peddling stuff dozens of other companys make better, cheaper, or with more "prestige".
As far as I'm concerned they are just an "also ran" now, nothing to differenciate them in the marketplace ..

I think this is my problem with the new Commodore thing... Falcons and Commodore have never been "the best car in the world" but they where made in Australia, for our roads and where better than most things, especially when you left the City. And the Final performance versions (XR8/XR6T/Sprint/SS/SSV Redline) where bloody good Performance Sedans.

Holden should have taken the lead from Ford who, in my opinion, did the right thing by ending the Falcon with FGX. Now, and in the future, when someone mentions the Falcon, it will always be about big, rear wheel drive Aussie made car that we where proud to call our own...

With Holden, they should have done the same damn thing... End the Commodore with the VF Series 2.... Name this new one the Insignia, or something else entirely. People who buy this new commodore aren't going to buy it just because its a commodore.... When its time for me to buy something else to go beside my VF Redline, I'm not going to buy the VXR just because its got a Commodore Badge, i'll buy another V8 (lets be honest, probably a Mustang...lol) I'm sure most Commodore owners feel the same as I do...

Its sad to see such an Iconic Nameplate neutered and put on sale so that Holden can try to trade on the Commodore's name...

** Just my 2c**

**janddbone** · 18-02-2018, 06:01 PM

They canned Zeta after the GFC and then went on to develop basically the same style platforms for Cadillac any way. They have no plan that lasts more than 12 months. By now Holden could be the RHD rwd producer for multiple cars off of Zeta. All the money spent for no return........

lovford · 22-02-2018, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sar4890

Was it the ride of the fe2 that caused your dislike? Tbh ive never driven VXss but have driven vy vz and almost all the models previous and found the fe2 firm but kept my fillings it might be personal ride preference.

Sorry for late reply, been on a fishing trip. I Found it to be way to firm, could hear lots of rattles, feel the bumps through the steering column. But on a smooth road, and fast cornering it was great. I cant believe the difference between Ford and holdens sports suspension, its like day and night. Its obvious to me that fords rides much more smoothly.

mike_nofx · 23-02-2018, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovford

Sorry for late reply, been on a fishing trip. I Found it to be way to firm, could hear lots of rattles, feel the bumps through the steering column. But on a smooth road, and fast cornering it was great. I cant believe the difference between Ford and holdens sports suspension, its like day and night. Its obvious to me that fords rides much more smoothly.

Well what is it you want, sports suspension or a smooth ride?
There’s always going to be a compromise somewhere, the falcon may be smoother but has more body roll.

I have a VE SS with FE2 suspension and actually fitted stiffer springs. Corners well for a 2T wagon, still smooth on most surfaces and no rattles.