Ford Covers it's *** nicely

darcati · 27-10-2010, 12:57 PM

Just wanted to run something passed fellow readers on the implications of warranty and protecting not only the public but also the ford dealers. Confused? read on.

If a person buys a ford and at some stage decides to get a flash tune, nothing out of the ordinary many people on this forum have accepted the "you play you pay" philosophy mentioned many times.

Once the owner has had his fun and decides to trade it in or sell to a Ford dealer, they inspect the car clean it up and put it on the lot. Ford dealers have no way of knowing if the car has had the ecu flashed. A person then buys the car thinking it's all above board as their buying from a authorised Ford dealer and feel confident they have purchased a car with what oustanding new car warranty in tact, and drives his new pride and joy lovingly home.

He then has an issue with the motor, no problem he books it in at his local Ford dealer confident that whatever the issue is he has warranty to cover him. The dealer has to get approval from Ford to approve the repair and send out a factory technician to inspect the car. He plugs in his higher level factory diagnostic tool into your car that the dealers dont have and discovers that the ecu has been flashed and proceeds to flag your car on Ford's database on his findings.

The dealer says because the ecu has been flashed they cant get approval for Ford to authorise repairs to the motor and possibly the driveline. You go back to the dealer you originally purchased the car from and their just as much in the dark as you are as they had no idea on the car's history because they dont have the access that Ford factory techs have therefore couldnt warn or advise me on what I was buying.

So Ford have their asses covered and the dealer is a mushroom and the owner has forked out his hard earned cash on a car that has none or questionable warranty. The dealer has no intention of taking the car back and refunding the owner who was not advised of what he was buying.

Dont think it can happen, it has!!!!

XWGT · 27-10-2010, 01:12 PM

and I imagine a well worded and respectfull explanation of the facts to Ford CSR would probably see the issue resolved................

There are a number of legal technicalities that would ensure either

1) The orginal dealer took the car back and refunded your money
2) Ford make an exception to their warrany policy as they have to

but I suspect the first route would be much easier, cheaper and quicker.

Keep us posted

Iggypoppin' · 27-10-2010, 01:13 PM

So if it has happened can you please provide examples?

T3man · 27-10-2010, 01:13 PM

And more than once I imagine.

darcati · 27-10-2010, 01:22 PM

Ford CSR have been approached and say they can do nothing, That the only people that can help is the original dealer that the car was purchased from. Which have been very understanding but are falling short of stepping up and doing the right thing of taking the car back.

It's still early days and have refrained from mentioning names at this stage. All I can say is watch this space!!

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 01:25 PM

Sounds like youre in a high stakes poker game, and the dealer is bluffing you. Get onto the Dept of Fair Trading (or equivalent in your state), they will at least point you in the right direction. Motor Traders Association in your state (LMCT (Vic) or MTAQ (Qld) or whatever in your state is another option.

Id say you have legal recourse. It will take time and effort on your part, but given the dollars involved its worth it.

XWGT · 27-10-2010, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darcati

Ford CSR have been approached and say they can do nothing, That the only people that can help is the original dealer that the car was purchased from. Which have been very understanding but are falling short of stepping up and doing the right thing of taking the car back.

It's still early days and have refrained from mentioning names at this stage. All I can say is watch this space!!

Simply mention to the dealer that you bought the car from that the fact the vehicle was under warranty and the warranty was an integral part of your buying decision and therefore the warranty has a "value" that has not been delivered to you.

Also point out that the car was advertised and sold with warranty, and that product has not been delivered to you.

Then mention the Office fo Fair Trading..........and negotiations should commence quite quickly between the dealer and Ford as to who is going to fix your car.

darcati · 27-10-2010, 01:41 PM

What are the implications if Ford backs down and against their policy warrant the car. I can hear flood gates creaking open!!!

Fair trading is an option but looks like a long tedious process. Granted the dealer have a "duty of care" whether they were/weren't aware.

Has anyone else experienced this as it surely must have happened to others.

GTP-814 · 27-10-2010, 01:48 PM

as an aside comment, i thought (on BA range) that if someone flashed a BA, BAII & BF (i think BF) that the service techs could not detect if it had been flashed or not

tweeked · 27-10-2010, 01:55 PM

ummmm, who would want to make and sell cars? People change your product, then sell it to a person who most probably knows it is modified, sometimes not. Then when it breaks they want it fixed.

I would say it is buyer beware. If you are not sure, take the car to Ford and get its ecu checked. If they wont check it, get it in writing off them then I feel you have a legitimate case.

xtremerus · 27-10-2010, 01:59 PM

Warranty with any product, firstly is on the retailer to fix. It is their responsibility to fix a problem.
What happens between retailer and the manufacturer is nothing to do with the customer, and is not their problem. The retailer still has the main responsibility to fix problems.

divine_afg · 27-10-2010, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darcati

Just wanted to run something passed fellow readers on the implications of warranty and protecting not only the public but also the ford dealers. Confused? read on.

If a person buys a ford and at some stage decides to get a flash tune, nothing out of the ordinary many people on this forum have accepted the "you play you pay" philosophy mentioned many times.

Once the owner has had his fun and decides to trade it in or sell to a Ford dealer, they inspect the car clean it up and put it on the lot. Ford dealers have no way of knowing if the car has had the ecu flashed. A person then buys the car thinking it's all above board as their buying from a authorised Ford dealer and feel confident they have purchased a car with what oustanding new car warranty in tact, and drives his new pride and joy lovingly home.

He then has an issue with the motor, no problem he books it in at his local Ford dealer confident that whatever the issue is he has warranty to cover him. The dealer has to get approval from Ford to approve the repair and send out a factory technician to inspect the car. He plugs in his higher level factory diagnostic tool into your car that the dealers dont have and discovers that the ecu has been flashed and proceeds to flag your car on Ford's database on his findings.

The dealer says because the ecu has been flashed they cant get approval for Ford to authorise repairs to the motor and possibly the driveline. You go back to the dealer you originally purchased the car from and their just as much in the dark as you are as they had no idea on the car's history because they dont have the access that Ford factory techs have therefore couldnt warn or advise me on what I was buying.

So Ford have their asses covered and the dealer is a mushroom and the owner has forked out his hard earned cash on a car that has none or questionable warranty. The dealer has no intention of taking the car back and refunding the owner who was not advised of what he was buying.

Dont think it can happen, it has!!!!

Did this happen to F6 bought in Melb.

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

ummmm, who would want to make and sell cars? People change your product, then sell it to a person who most probably knows it is modified, sometimes not. Then when it breaks they want it fixed.

I would say it is buyer beware. If you are not sure, take the car to Ford and get its ecu checked. If they wont check it, get it in writing off them then I feel you have a legitimate case.

Except it was sold with warranty, by a dealer.

If Ford refuse to check it, why would they then give him anything in writing?

tweeked · 27-10-2010, 02:21 PM

Because the dealer is unaware that warranty will not be covered

According to the OP only higher level scanning will uncover this

Quote:

Originally Posted by xtremerus

Warranty with any product, firstly is on the retailer to fix. It is their responsibility to fix a problem.
What happens between retailer and the manufacturer is nothing to do with the customer, and is not their problem. The retailer still has the main responsibility to fix problems.

Even when people have changed the product from standard? What has voided warranty was not between the manufacturer and retailer. It was done by an owner.

Ford never designed in the ability to modify their ECU's. It was cracked and a relatively stealthy change that can overburden parts of the car.

The retailer should take reasonable steps to check a second hand car. But a previous owner not disclosing information about the car should not fall back on the retailer. Otherwise, we all just end up paying by way of higher prices.

GTpilot · 27-10-2010, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

ummmm, who would want to make and sell cars? People change your product, then sell it to a person who most probably knows it is modified, sometimes not. Then when it breaks they want it fixed.

I would say it is buyer beware. If you are not sure, take the car to Ford and get its ecu checked. If they wont check it, get it in writing off them then I feel you have a legitimate case.

Not that simple, from our point of view yes, we would think of it, but average joe may not know about flash tuning let alone the warranty implications.

Mum and Dad average, with an excited Dad buying that dream XR6 Ford he wanted for years, finds a BF II on the lot at his local ford dealer for $xxxxx, With balance of new car warranty.. No visual mods done to it, but unknown to him AND the dealer it once had rims, exhaust, tune etc. So he forks out his hard earned cash to by his dream car to cart the missus and critters around in.

Then one fine day......Bang.....smoke etc.....Sorry Sir Ford say No warranty on the engine with the piston hanging out the side....Cause it has previously been flash tuned..

when I sold my BF (traded through the dealer) I had returned EVERYTHING back to stock. Leaving the dealer AND the purchaser from that dealer no reason to believe the car had infact been modified and tuned.

I see you point 100% but the dealer sold teh car with a warranty. it's really up to the dealer to do their homework before offereing the product.

darcati · 27-10-2010, 02:33 PM

When purchasing a car from a Ford dealer "buyer beware" should be the last thing running through your head. The fault with the motor is minor but has the potential of being a very expensive exercise should the car suffer some sort of major failure and Ford dont come to the party.

The issue is of the unknown if I make a warranty claim later down the track, the dealer is happy to fix the problem but Ford approve and pay the dealer to do the warranty work. Ford ultimately have the decision, if they knock it back the dealer has no say in the decision. They are puppets whose strings are pulled by Ford.

Dealers dont have the feature to check if the ecu has been flashed and really who wants Ford to check their ecu only to find it has been and have the vehicle details on Fords database flagged for any future warranty claims. I'm sure people would rather fly under the radar then expose themselves even if their cars havent been modified.

Ford need to protect Ford dealers and buyers otherwise the only way of ensuring the car hasnt been tampered with is to buy a new one.

One question I want to ask Ford is there a date stamp when the flash was done. If it was before the new owner purchased the car then they could honor the remaining warranty to the new owner as long as the car was put back to standard tune, exhaust etc.

tweeked · 27-10-2010, 02:43 PM

It is a difficult one, and really the only answer for the dealer is to purchase the scanner (big dollars), and extra training on staff (dollars) and staff time to do and document the tests, checking a main database to find out how many flashes, and compare (dollars)

So we all pay an extra grand on a car to have the warranty

I remember speaking to my brother in law years back who was a director at GMH about retuning the Crummidores. He was shocked that it was done.

There should be a law against it

**Polyal** · 27-10-2010, 02:45 PM

Its a hard call, but at the end of the day Ford cant warrant every claim made.

Just so I am correct, the dealer got the car in as a trade in, thought it was stock, sold it on and then the end user found out it was tuned only through warranty work being done for a claim? Ford says no because its been tuned.

I can see Fords POV, if anyone has stuffed up its the dealer IMO.

What dealers do is up to them, imagine trying to cover every car that gets fiddled with?

And any proof of this "higher" level scanning not being available to tuners/dealers? Surely its recorded in the ECU somewhere and is retrievable by anyone who knows what they are doing.

Would be interesting to hear from personal from a dealership or tuner on this site.

divine_afg · 27-10-2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by divine_afg

Did this happen to F6 bought in Melb.

.. was meant to ask - are you reffering to F6 bought in Melb recently.

tweeked · 27-10-2010, 02:51 PM

Yeah i was just thinking the same about the "high" level scanner.

if it is a $20000 piece of equipment (or a newer model) thats only difference is just to identify number of flashes i can understand why dealerships wouldn't have upgraded. Or they may be unavailable to the dealerships

BUT

If all scanners can access the data, and they were creating a "mythical scanner" as an excuse, then it would be dealer beware and payup on the warranty

**Polyal** · 27-10-2010, 02:52 PM

Well IMO if it is true its an operating cost to the dealership to protect themselves and their customers...there is no excuse on the dealerships behalf, they should know better. They can write the thing off anyway...but I still find it hard to believe.

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 02:57 PM

Its all irrelevant, if one can assume buyer beware, then the same extends to the dealer. After all, they technically bought it from the previous owner.

They then offered the car for sale with warranty, knowing full well Ford would scan the car for flash tunes if a warranty claim should be needed. The current owner and most others I might add, would be unaware that this is the way its done. The dealer took the risk, not the buyer, he bought through a dealer, not privately.

As a side, it shouldnt cost $1000 per car, if Ford can arrange someone to come and check the car when warranty is claimed on, then surely they could arrange pre-checks with dealers for less than that so the dealer knows whether they should sell with warranty at retail price, or sell below as its now apparently 'dodgy'.

tweeked · 27-10-2010, 02:57 PM

I did pluck $1000 from a place where the sun dont shine

Brings into question the real fraudulent party in this - the person who trades a car but doesnt disclose its past. We can all say bad luck, dealer should do this and that. But the reality is it costs all of us. Should it not be illegal to conceal that you have voided the warranty? I bet these people all hide this to get a better trade. Whats the difference?

Ethics when brought back to the individual always seem to be different.

darcati · 27-10-2010, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by divine_afg

.. was meant to ask - are you reffering to F6 bought in Melb recently.

No it wasnt

geckoGT · 27-10-2010, 03:02 PM

The dealers can check for flash tuning or previous flash tuning on BF onwards. I was talking to the dealer about this very subject when I bought the F6 second hand. I asked if it had ever been modified and the answer was it had not, he then went on to explain that they check all of them for flash tunes or previous flash tunes and if they have had these they will not sell them and they will send them to a wholesaler.

He also stated they are not allowed to sell a Ford that has been tuned, although I do not know if that is a Ford ruling or a dealer ruling.

I think the dealer is to blame here, he should have checked and at the end of the day the buyer bought a product with a warranty that he believed was valid in good faith. If the dealer did not check that the warranty was valid due to known problems, that is his fault. What happened to the good old days when dealers would give the vehicle a thorough check up before putting it on the lot?

darcati · 27-10-2010, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fmc351

Its all irrelevant, if one can assume buyer beware, then the same extends to the dealer. After all, they technically bought it from the previous owner.

They then offered the car for sale with warranty, knowing full well Ford would scan the car for flash tunes if a warranty claim should be needed. The current owner and most others I might add, would be unaware that this is the way its done. The dealer took the risk, not the buyer, he bought through a dealer, not privately.

As a side, it shouldnt cost $1000 per car, if Ford can arrange someone to come and check the car when warranty is claimed on, then surely they could arrange pre-checks with dealers for less than that so the dealer knows whether they should sell with warranty at retail price, or sell below as its now apparently 'dodgy'.

This is the ideal resolution, and Fords database could reflect this and even if purchasing the car privately Ford could for a fee advise the status of the car regarding warranty.

tweeked · 27-10-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

The dealers can check for flash tuning or previous flash tuning on BF onwards. I was talking to the dealer about this very subject when I bought the F6 second hand. I asked if it had ever been modified and the answer was it had not, he then went on to explain that they check all of them for flash tunes or previous flash tunes and if they have had these they will not sell them and they will send them to a wholesaler.

He also stated they are not allowed to sell a Ford that has been tuned, although I do not know if that is a Ford ruling or a dealer ruling.

I think the dealer is to blame here, he should have checked and at the end of the day the buyer bought a product with a warranty that he believed was valid in good faith. If the dealer did not check that the warranty was valid due to known problems, that is his fault. What happened to the good old days when dealers would give the vehicle a thorough check up before putting it on the lot?

With that said - absolutely time for the dealer to pony up. Not Ford.

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

I did pluck $1000 from a place where the sun dont shine

Brings into question the real fraudulent party in this - the person who trades a car but doesnt disclose its past. We can all say bad luck, dealer should do this and that. But the reality is it costs all of us. Should it not be illegal to conceal that you have voided the warranty? I bet these people all hide this to get a better trade. Whats the difference?

And that is something the dealer can look into with its own solicitors. The current owner has no contract with the previous owner. The dealership has contracts with both. A business decision they made, and one they need to honour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

With that said - absolutely time for the dealer to pony up. Not Ford.

Im not certain as I dont know what the tems of the dealership franchise contracts between Ford and said franchisee are, but on the surface this seems to bcorrect. Ford is likely off the hook.

The dealer however, is not. And rightly so.

**DJM83** · 27-10-2010, 03:13 PM

I understand where the OP is coming from, but if the car has had a flash tune how is it Fords (not dealer) that the original factory warranty is voided.

Dr Smith · 27-10-2010, 03:14 PM

Would said "higher level" diagnostic tool be able to provide a date on the last ECU change thereby proving it was done before the current owner was in possession. Maybe then the dealer could be "convinced" they sold a car, with claim of factory warranty still fully covering the vehicle when in actual fact this is not the case and that it had no factory warranty valid at time of purchase . Therefore the buyer didn't get the "goods" as advertised. This might put more pressure on the dealer to come to the party....also if they reset the ecu to factory stock and anything else breaks which could be blamed on past "higher" performance due to ECU changes where do you stand again?