Protest

[Steffo]

Power/Weight is an easier thing to police, although it is extremley difficult in itself. Compile a list of every car ever sold in Australia that's over whatever power/weight limit you're targeting (125kW/tonne for Victoria). That'd be a big, big, big list... lol

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

Straight six, fours, boxter, V6, V5, V10, V12 can all go hard too

I think this really will just mean more shitty cars driven by inexperienced drivers - incase you can't tell this is a BAD thing.

All the exteriour signs of a V8 and or turbo are usually easily removed, do we really want police spending time pulling over cars because they could have a V8 or turbo (every falcon and commodore hmm) and does this work in Victoria (power/weight)? HELL NO

Simple, a P plater cannot register a car that has a V8 or turbo. If they find sone way around it (get parents to do it) then they both will cop a huge fine and possibly loss of licence for delibritly avioding the law.

The people that seem to be against (from my POV) are from NSW. VIC has had a similar law (power to weight) for ages...its just a bit tougher than that.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Power/Weight is an easier thing to police, although it is extremley difficult in itself. Compile a list of every car ever sold in Australia that's over whatever power/weight limit you're targeting (125kW/tonne for Victoria). That'd be a big, big, big list... lol

So its a big list, you going to get lazy over an issue like this?

[Jamie XR6]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

No legislation about the vehicle a P Plater drives is going to stop these people being criminals and performing criminal acts.


This is a pointless law. The only way to stop the criminals is through law enforcement acting on what these guys do. That means more then staging a raid on maccas and defecting cars, which is not worth the time. The groups need to be infiltrated not legislated.

For sure, you are right but I guess they have to start somewhere. As stated many times in this thread, I think it's more a law to try and change the culture of owning these cars (if that's the correct term).

Unfortunately a Fast and Furious attitude is happening and that includes criminal elements and anti social behaviour.

Yes I support these laws. Do I think it will have any impact? Probably not, but I hope it does.

[Perana]

In SA we dont have any laws governing what car you can or cant drive.. Hell if i was on my P's still i could go buy a 600HP AMG Mercedes and drive if i wanted !

[sarcasm]Yet there are sooooo many V8 or Turbo P-Plater accidents [/sarcasm]

The way to solve the problem is education AND enforcement! Not doing these half assed band aid approaches..

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Simple, a P plater cannot register a car that has a V8 or turbo. If they find sone way around it (get parents to do it) then they both will cop a huge fine and possibly loss of licence for delibritly avioding the law.

The people that seem to be against (from my POV) are from NSW. VIC has had a similar law (power to weight) for ages...its just a bit tougher than that.

I'm from VIC, vicroads lets you register any car you want, doesn't mean you're allowed to drive it. I think you will find that if the power/weight was actually enforced it would be as restrictive if not more so. But power/weight really just seems to be there so TMU can harass people and write up completely subjective fines that often have no basis in the law.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

I'm from VIC, vicroads lets you register any car you want, doesn't mean you're allowed to drive it. I think you will find that if the power/weight was actually enforced it would be as restrictive if not more so. But power/weight really just seems to be there so TMU can harass people and write up completely subjective fines that often have no basis in the law.

Harass people? Do you mean P platers in cars technically they shouldn't be in?

Cops are just doing there job, and most of the time the people they "pick on" have it coming anyway. If you choose to drive a car that attracts attention then be willing to handle other things that come with it.

I have never bothered to look up the power/weight law; but its there for a reason. I dont even know how strict they are with it because I see heaps of P platers in cars I know damn well would be over the limit.

If they get caught then the deserve everything that they get, fines, loss of licence what ever. I woudl even be happy that if a P plater had a car over the power/weight limit; and they had an accident that was proven to be there fault and killed someone; its jail time.

They break the law knowingly.

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Harass people? Do you mean P platers in cars technically they shouldn't be in?

Cops are just doing there job, and most of the time the people they "pick on" have it coming anyway. If you choose to drive a car that attracts attention then be willing to handle other things that come with it.

I have never bothered to look up the power/weight law; but its there for a reason. I dont even know how strict they are with it because I see heaps of P platers in cars I know damn well would be over the limit.

If they get caught then the deserve everything that they get, fines, loss of licence what ever. I woudl even be happy that if a P plater had a car over the power/weight limit; and they had an accident that was proven to be there fault and killed someone; its jail time.

They break the law knowingly.

don't be a hipocrit, I highly doubt you had your EA-ED hybrid engineered for each and every modification. When you can be fined without hard proof and no avenue of recourse there is something VERY wrong. When you can rack up hundreds in fines for a car that will pass roadworthy the next day without change according to a ***** copper's subjective view, yeah they are harassing people with little reason but for the sake of being a *****.

No I have NEVER recieved a defect or speeding fine, just one fine couple of years ago, failing to indicate back in - overtaking an unmarked cop car : that sucked.

[MITCHAY]

Simply put basically no one needs a high performance car its something they like. I reckon if you plan on getting one you start off in a slower car and then upgrade according to your ability. The thing that causes crashes is when CONFIDENCE overturns COMPETENCE of the driver and car. I could just as easily rap my TX5 round a tree than i could my bros or mums commodore. When you know the limits of the car there is less chance. You could drive normally and some dude crashes into you or something buggers up in your car and still have the same result as hooning. You can still thrash a POS same as high per. 100km/h is the same in anycar but in all likeliness a high per car would stop quicker and handle better well that has been my experience anyways. I see way more POS in accidents than high per cars and this is IN MY EXPERIENCE. They should focus more on banning drivers. A car cannot drive itself.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

don't be a hipocrit, I highly doubt you had your EA-ED hybrid engineered for each and every modification. When you can be fined without hard proof and no avenue of recourse there is something VERY wrong. When you can rack up hundreds in fines for a car that will pass roadworthy the next day without change according to a ***** copper's subjective view, yeah they are harassing people with little reason but for the sake of being a *****.

No I have NEVER recieved a defect or speeding fine, just one fine couple of years ago, failing to indicate back in - overtaking an unmarked cop car : that sucked.

Ok where did that come from?

I got pulled over atleast 5 times while on my P's in my previous EA which was visually modified more than my current one. It was so low I could barely get over speed humps and everytime a cop mentioned it I simply gave him a good answer and wasn't a dick about it.

What needs engineering on my car? My exhaust? Thats about all that ive done that could contribute to performance, and it barely helps that. And why am I going to be fined over that?

My car is nothing like a turbo/V8, sorry that was a very random post. :

Looks like we are not going to agree on anything here, and Ive said what I think and no one has given a good answer as to why a new driver needs a v8/turbo. You have all your life to own a fast car; 3 years without is not going to kill you, and thats just the point.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Oh please dont tell me you are one of the mindless folk who watch Ray Martin regurgitate everynight and treat it like gospel. One camera interviewing a dozen "gangstas" does not a riot on the roads make. You are making things out to be like a Mad Max Movie.

Nope. Don't watch it. Downloaded it from a link I found on here IIRC. But from what I've *personally* experienced, it was much worse than what was portrayed on that clip. All they did was pester police, not law abiding public trying to utilise a stretch of road where they decided to 'set-up'.

Originally Posted by sourbastard

And I reiterate, you have an issue with gang related crime Rodp, not with P platers, please get some perspective on this. The culture you outline is a criminal element with a affinity for fast cars and dangerous driving, instead your skewing this to be all P platers. I guarantee that the same P platers that chased you that night, once they are off their P's will be doing the same thing. These people dont get magically cured once they are off their P Plates. They are thugs and criminals FIRST, P Platers second.

So driving late at light like a bonehead on your P plates is gang related crime?

Don't you think it's indicitive of the attitude of those that actually drive around Sydney are the majority of those think this is a good idea, and the ones that don't drive around Sydney think it's a shocking idea?

Originally Posted by sourbastard

And of these "splats" how many are directly related to the vehicles acceleration capabilities. Id guarantee most of them would be once again driver inattention.

The pedestrian that was dismembered by a Skyline travelling at around 120kph on Cronulla's foreshore was directly related to it.

Originally Posted by Rodp

The pedestrian that was dismembered by a Skyline travelling at around 120kph on Cronulla's foreshore was directly related to it.

Any car can easily do 120km/h and the pedestrian was DRUNK and wandered out into the middile of the road.

Originally Posted by Rodp

Had they been driving unmodified factory cars, I doubt they would have chased and harrased someone in an XR8 because they wouldn't have been able to keep up if I didn't want them to.

So attempting to force me off the road on the M5 early in the morning and chasing me down and harrassing me after going to a Maccas would have happened in cars not actually capable of keeping up with me?

How about the drag race in the Skyline in Cronulla that hit and splatted a pedestrian at around 160kph. Had he been driving a Corolla, do you think he would still be alive today?

Your insane, you want P platers banned from fast cars because you want to outrun them in car chases?!

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Your insane, you want P platers banned from fast cars because you want to outrun them in car chases?!

...and it's absolutely pointless debating anything with you.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Any car can easily do 120km/h and the pedestrian was DRUNK and wandered out into the middile of the road.

In the space required to reach the speed he did, my XR8 wouldn't have been able to reach it. Experience would have told that not only was it dangerous to speed in the manner he did on that road, that it was also right outside of a club where inebriated people walk out of. It's a 50 zone, had he not been drag racing and taking due care on the road, the pedestrian would have been sleeping off a hangover, not put to the big sleep.

Originally Posted by Rodp

In the space required to reach the speed he did, my XR8 wouldn't have been able to reach it. Experience would have told that not only was it dangerous to speed in the manner he did on that road, that it was also right outside of a club where inebriated people walk out of. It's a 50 zone, had he not been drag racing and taking due care on the road, the pedestrian would have been sleeping off a hangover, not put to the big sleep.

How long is this road exactly? It would take an xr8 something around 300m to reach 120.

[tickford2001]

A CAR - a teenagers ultimate new toy - you ABUSE it - YOU LOSE IT... :

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

How long is this road exactly? It would take an xr8 something around 300m to reach 120.

From where they started to drag to where the pedestrian was hit, a lot less than 300m. It'd be closer to 100-150 meters.

Can you answer me why there's possibly 1 or 2 companies that will insure a Skyline to a 17yr old P plater in Sydney but just about all of them will insure a Daewoo Matiz to a 17yr old P plater?

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by Jamie XR6

And you are worried about P platers not being able to drive a turbo/V8?

This arguement (sorry discussion) would be even more heated. Ask anyone from Victoria what power to weight ratio bans mean. It means that even more cars would be off limits to P platers and that includes many N/A 6's

If that's the case, then so be it.

That may sound harsh, but it may solve some issues that have been raised in this thread. It seems to me that there are some valid points being put forward, as well as the usual drivel.

Without re-hashing 9 pages of comments, is it actually possible for someone who is affected directly by this new legislation to clearly, and concisely, tell me WHY they are inconvenienced by this?

It all seems fairly pointless to me, since the majority of those in the affected demographic will buy 4 cylinders anyway. They're just ****ed off that they can't buy particular brands and models....poor baby can't have a WRX, SO WHAT!!

[Jamie XR6]

Originally Posted by Quasi

If that's the case, then so be it.

That may sound harsh, but it may solve some issues that have been raised in this thread. It seems to me that there are some valid points being put forward, as well as the usual drivel.

Without re-hashing 9 pages of comments, is it actually possible for someone who is affected directly by this new legislation to clearly, and concisely, tell me WHY they are inconvenienced by this?

It all seems fairly pointless to me, since the majority of those in the affected demographic will buy 4 cylinders anyway. They're just ****ed off that they can't buy particular brands and models....poor baby can't have a WRX, SO WHAT!!

You will get no arguement from me Quasi. These laws should have been in force years ago. It's been that way for motorbikes for more years than I can remember in NSW, it's about time it happened for cars. By the way, my car while I was on my Ps was a 1979 Toyota Corona Station Wagon that I bought off my parents. I didn't own a 6 until my mid to late 20s and it was a 1969 MkI GT6 Triumph, 2L I6.

It just made me laugh that some one against these laws would suggest bringing in something even harsher.

Originally Posted by Rodp

From where they started to drag to where the pedestrian was hit, a lot less than 300m. It'd be closer to 100-150 meters.

Can you answer me why there's possibly 1 or 2 companies that will insure a Skyline to a 17yr old P plater in Sydney but just about all of them will insure a Daewoo Matiz to a 17yr old P plater?

Stop comparing skylines to the cheapest FWD hatches you can buy, the way they have made the law means the idiots can still get a reasonably powerful RWD and do the same stupid things. A lot less people would be complaining if P platers were limited to a frond wheel drive non turbo until they completed an advanced driving course because it would actually help. People do not want to give up their cars for a law that doesn't actually help anyone because some polititions were too lazy or inept to do the proper thing.

Skylines are hard to insure for alot of reasons. There are alot of idiots that drive them. Its not right to say that the idiots are caused by the car itself. Theres constantly a couple of cars around that will attract alot of idiots due to their popularity. A few years ago it was the WRX and in a few years they will move on to something other than the skylines. Targeting the cars instead of the bad drivers does nothing. The other reason its hard to insure a skyline is because they are a grey import so it can be very hard to get part to repair them if they are crashed and they have alot of problems with stolen cars being imported. The insurance companis don't seem to be that concerned with the performance of a car if you compare comparable models. They would insure me with a renault clio but not with a slower mini cooper S. Theres also wasn't much difference in price between insuring an AU xr8 and a new commodore exec.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

The other reason its hard to insure a skyline is because they are a grey import so it can be very hard to get part to repair them if they are crashed and they have alot of problems with stolen cars being imported. The insurance companis don't seem to be that concerned with the performance of a car if you compare comparable models. They would insure me with a renault clio but not with a slower mini cooper S. Theres also wasn't much difference in price between insuring an AU xr8 and a new commodore exec.

We're talking about in Sydney here, not Adelaide(?). Fine, disregard the Skyline. Try insure any factory turbo car bought in Aus (not even a grey import) as an 18yr old P plater and see how far you get (if you'd get change out of 10k for an XR6T in your own name then I would be shocked). Many insurance companies also won't insure young P plate drivers in V8's in Sydney either. There are also a large number that won't even insure them until they're over 25. Those that are do are usually so cost prohibitive that it's impractical.

NRMA online quote for AU XR8 to comprehensively insure agreed value of $25k in my area. 18yr old vs Me.

18yr old $10,709
Me $1,878

NRMA online quote for VZ Commodore to comprehensively insure agree value of $25k in my area. 18yr old vs Me.

18yr old $4079
Me $974

Seems a marked difference to me.

[TURBOTAXI]

The fact remains that there has been no evidence provided to support this move.
Show me the evidence and I will shut up.

Originally Posted by Rodp

We're talking about in Sydney here, not Adelaide(?). Fine, disregard the Skyline. Try insure any factory turbo car bought in Aus (not even a grey import) as an 18yr old P plater and see how far you get (if you'd get change out of 10k for an XR6T in your own name then I would be shocked). Many insurance companies also won't insure young P plate drivers in V8's in Sydney either. There are also a large number that won't even insure them until they're over 25. Those that are do are usually so cost prohibitive that it's impractical.

NRMA online quote for AU XR8 to comprehensively insure agreed value of $25k in my area. 18yr old vs Me.

18yr old $10,709
Me $1,878

NRMA online quote for VZ Commodore to comprehensively insure agree value of $25k in my area. 18yr old vs Me.

18yr old $4079
Me $974

Seems a marked difference to me.

Must be alot different in sydney, I got quoted 3200 when I looked at a base model commodore compared to the clio and my Au cost me around 2400 to insure when I was 19. I am 1 rating lower than normal becaus of a discount I got though.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Must be alot different in sydney, I got quoted 3200 when I looked at a base model commodore compared to the clio and my Au cost me around 2400 to insure when I was 19. I am 1 rating lower than normal becaus of a discount I got though.

That's what I've been trying to tell you for.. what? 10 pages!

[Jamie XR6]

I don't know why you guys are talking about insurance. In fact you would find that most of these cars aren't even insured as most companies will not touch P platers with Turbos or high powered cars in Sydney. And that's part of the problem with these cars on the road in the hands of P platers.

Those that do charge so much that the kids can't afford it. Buying the car is the cheap part.

[Steffo]

That's a wildly expensive figure for an AU XR8 on NRMA's quote thingy.. where do you live.. Redfern?

I've looked up how much it would be to insure cars comprehensively on NRMA many times, an AU1 TE50 for example, in my name, 17, no previous insurer, no previous driving experience (excluding L's), comprehensive cover.. $28k (you can buy them for less)... it was something around $4500 - $5000/year. That dropped to $2900 if I'd put it on my father's name him being owner/driver and me being driver #2. $10,000 is wildly expensive.. even for NRMA.

NRMA told me that a Skyline R33 GTS25t in my dad's name with me as driver #2 would be $6000/year approx, and they're FAR more expensive to insure then any Falcon.

Originally Posted by Rodp

That's what I've been trying to tell you for.. what? 10 pages!

Yes Sydney has a crime problem, has expensive insurance and possibly more idiot P platers. The problem is the law doesn't fix any of the problems people have been complaining about. P platers can still get a fast car by either buying a fast 6 cylinder or the idiot street racers who already break a bunch of laws will just add another law to the list. It doesn't remove the mid 90s commodores which have dreadful handling and are harder to drive than many performance cars. It doesn't take any idiots off the road. It doesn't increase the driving skills of any P platers. All it does is shut up a few newspapers and allow the government to claim they have fixed the problem.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Jamie XR6

I don't know why you guys are talking about insurance. In fact you would find that most of these cars aren't even insured as most companies will not touch P platers with Turbos or high powered cars in Sydney. And that's part of the problem with these cars on the road in the hands of P platers.

Those that do charge so much that the kids can't afford it. Buying the car is the cheap part.

Because insurance companies base their premiums partly on risk assessment on actual data. Insurance companies don't insure these cars in the hands of P platers because it's not good business sense.

I had noted initially in my argument that one of the associated problems of P platers in turbo's and V8's is that they're not insured and very few companies are willing to insure them.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Steffo

That's a wildly expensive figure for an AU XR8 on NRMA's quote thingy.. where do you live.. Redfern?

I've looked up how much it would be to insure cars comprehensively on NRMA many times, an AU1 TE50 for example, in my name, 17, no previous insurer, no previous driving experience (excluding L's), comprehensive cover.. $28k (you can buy them for less)... it was something around $4500 - $5000/year. That dropped to $2900 if I'd put it on my father's name him being owner/driver and me being driver #2. $10,000 is wildly expensive.. even for NRMA.

Warwick Farm. Just did a 2002 TE50. I believe my suburb is roughly the same risk suburb as Redfern though.

Annual Amount $11,596.29
Monthly Instalment $977.72

Monthly instalments will total $11,732.64 over 12 months, which is $136.29 more than the annual payment option. The instalment amount may vary slightly each month. All amounts displayed include GST and Stamp Duty/Tax. Excesses may apply.**

Vehicle 2002 Ford Te50 Falcon Sedan 5.6 Litres

Agreed Value including modifications: $28,000
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Hire car - No
Choice of repairer - No
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