diesel cars in decline... - Page 4

burnz · 20-02-2012, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .FoMoCo.

95 is the "premium" referred to in previous posts needed to obtain maximum performance and economy from the ecoboost engines. Both the engines run quite well on 87 or 91.

So no advantage to diesel in fuel prices, I think we can put that issue to bed now.

But we are splitting hairs here, the move to low capacity DI turbo engines instead of diesel is no accident by FOA. I believe they have seen the potential in the technology, still in relatively early stage of development. It can only get better.

How far have we come? The ED falcon's 5.0 litre efi V8 from 1993 had 165 KW. EB4 for the falcon will be 179 KW.

you need premium for that kw

.FoMoCo. · 20-02-2012, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

you need premium for that kw

Yes, 95 premium. I 100% agree with you. It is the SAME price as diesel per litre.

jpd80 · 20-02-2012, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

At the end of the day Ford won't be bringing out a diesel Falcon any day soon. I feel that the diesel out of the Territory wouldn't acheive the goals needed in the Falcon to make it successful. Comparing the petrol and diesel Territory's I would estimate that a 2.7L diesel Falcon would achieve around 7.5L/100km. I feel it would need to be in the 6's to be of benefit.

I think something like the 2.2L diesel out of the Mondeo (that we don't get) would achieve better results (if it is possible for RWD). 147kw and 450Nm using around 6.5L/100km.

I wouldn't be disappointed if the Falcon line up was the following...
2L Ecoboost
2.2L diesel
5.0L Coyote

There's another engine under development, a 2.7 V6 called "nano" and due inside two years.

In DI form it's expected to punch out 175 Kw and 290 nm but
in Ecoboost form, 250Kw and 490 nm wouldn't be out of the question..

I would expect that the the USA will use the 2.7 Ecoboost instead of the 2.7 V6 diesel we use here in Territory
Being a lot smaller and narrower than the current 3.5/3.7 V6, I wonder if it would fit in our Falcon......

babyf6 · 20-02-2012, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

There's another engine under development, a 2.7 V6 called "nano" and due inside two years.

In DI form it's expected to punch out 175 Kw and 290 nm but
in Ecoboost form, 250Kw and 490 nm wouldn't be out of the question..

I would expect that the the USA will use the 2.7 Ecoboost instead of the 2.7 V6 diesel we use here in Territory
Being a lot smaller and narrower than the current 3.5/3.7 V6, I wonder if it would fit in our Falcon......

Making me drool

jpd80 · 20-02-2012, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babyf6

Making me drool

If you took the mean average of combined fuel economy of XR6 Turbo and EcoBoost 2.0,
a 2.7 V6 Ecoboost would probably have a combined economy of around 9.5 litres/100 km...

Everything the GM 2.8 DI Turbo promised and more but without the serious detonation problem....

.FoMoCo. · 20-02-2012, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

If you took the mean average of combined fuel economy of XR6 Turbo and EcoBoost 2.0,
a 2.7 V6 Ecoboost would probably have a combined economy of around 9.5 litres/100 km...

Its quite exciting seeing where this new technology is taking us.... it's happening now, and hats off to Ford for having the foresight to use it before anyone else.

jpd80 · 20-02-2012, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .FoMoCo.

Its quite exciting seeing where this new technology is taking us.... it's happening now, and hats off to Ford for having the foresight to use it before anyone else.

I think Ford is clawing back the initiative and will again become the leader in new technology.
While things look a bit bleak with falcon, in the real world it's small beer and I suspect that
Ford head office will say, "look guys, make the figures work and you can have another crack.."

naddis01 · 20-02-2012, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

i have personally got a terry diesel down to 6.0/100 and i was very suppriesed..

I mean combined consumption not highway.

My Mazda 6 diesel will do in the high 3's cruising in 4th at 50-60km/hr with 2 adults and 2 kids with a boot full of luggage. It averages about 6L/100. The next gen is meant to be 20% more efficient.

jpd80 · 21-02-2012, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

I mean combined consumption not highway.

My Mazda 6 diesel will do in the high 3's cruising in 4th at 50-60km/hr with 2 adults and 2 kids with a boot full of luggage. It averages about 6L/100. The next gen is meant to be 20% more efficient.

The 2.7 V6 Diesel in Jaguar XF achieved a combined of 7.5 l/100 km so I think you're on the money
with your past comment regarding diesel possibly nor giving that much better in a Falcon variant....
It seems like Ford and Jag put a lot more effort into the 3.0 and got more power, torque and economy.

1TUFFUTE · 21-02-2012, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Thats right, and look at all the features that comes with, and the thing actually has more leg room than the Falcon because its FWD and very similar in size.

Average joe doesn't give a rats *** about FWD and RWD, and either do I.

its not the falcons fault its bigger faster tougher ..can tow big..is safer and more adaptable for a family...spose when you trade of all these benifits..it gets you...more gizmos and build quality. its a new era

jpd80 · 21-02-2012, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

its not the falcons fault its bigger faster tougher ..can tow big..is safer and more adaptable for a family...spose when you trade of all these benifits..it gets you...more gizmos and build quality. its a new era

It's up to Ford to offer people alternatives if they want them and have the darned cars in sufficint quantities to curry interest.
It's not about replacing Falcon but if a buyer is looking for something slightly different, perhaps diesel Mondeo is it..

I'm starting to understand the diversity plan with Falcon-Territory-Mondeo and it's interesting to consider which vehicles
have diesels (mondeo and territory) which have Ecoboost (Falcon-Mondeo) and which stay with big NA (Falcon-Territory)
Now, if those vehicles are offered at the right price in the right quantities, it's hard to see a flaw in that thinking...

1TUFFUTE · 21-02-2012, 03:48 AM

i just cant help but wonder how depressd australia will be in a few years when all these new small cars really hit the second hand scene. Nothing but used cheap plastic electronic depression machines. Well maybe not that bad but certainly along those lines...i mean this is australia its a biggg place

prydey · 21-02-2012, 08:26 AM

jpd - good to see you back! i think someone else has been posting on your behalf over the last few days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Thats right, and look at all the features that comes with, and the thing actually has more leg room than the Falcon because its FWD and very similar in size.

Average joe doesn't give a rats *** about FWD and RWD, and either do I.

how does the shoulder room compare in the mondeo? how does the touchscreen compare?

it goes both ways. mondeo has some things falcon doesn't and falcon has some things mondeo doesn't.

it doesn't make either right or wrong. falcon still outsells mondeo which sort of shoots your argument in the foot anyway. i'm aware that mondeo may have a larger percentage of private buyers but ford wouldn't care that much. a sale is still a sale.

crustyman · 21-02-2012, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

it doesn't make either right or wrong. falcon still outsells mondeo which sort of shoots your argument in the foot anyway. i'm aware that mondeo may have a larger percentage of private buyers but ford wouldn't care that much. a sale is still a sale.

Our work fleet is slowly switching over to Mondeo's, they've not purchased a Falcon for about 18 months now. I just sold my G6ET and replaced it with a TDCi Mondeo and I gotta say the Mondeo feels better put together (Both are mid 2008 models) and I can't help thinking the fuel guage is busted because it just doesn't seem to want to budge!

1TUFFUTE · 21-02-2012, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crustyman

Our work fleet is slowly switching over to Mondeo's, they've not purchased a Falcon for about 18 months now. I just sold my G6ET and replaced it with a TDCi Mondeo and I gotta say the Mondeo feels better put together (Both are mid 2008 models) and I can't help thinking the fuel guage is busted because it just doesn't seem to want to budge!

im suprised more fleets arent jumping on the new ecolpi falcons..i mean they have better economy of not only mondeos but most of the small class segment.....and thats with more power then the existing 4.0l

Mondeos are cool tho..hence the higher private buyer numbers.
And ford would care because fleets mean less profit in most cases

crustyman · 21-02-2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

im suprised more fleets arent jumping on the new ecolpi falcons..i mean they have better economy of not only mondeos but most of the small class segment.....and thats with more power then the existing 4.0l

Mondeos are cool tho..hence the higher private buyer numbers.
And ford would care because fleets mean less profit in most cases

Honestly I believe it's because there is a perception that Falcons/Commodores are big and wasteful/inefficient whereas the Mondeo's are considered a Mid sized car (joke is that I have more room in the Mondeo and more boot space!). We are also buying up on Hyundai i30's and i40/i45's as well, again I believe because the general public perceives them to be more "green and cost effective". BTW I work for a Public Hospital so it's taxpayers money we are spending.

1TUFFUTE · 21-02-2012, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crustyman

Honestly I believe it's because there is a perception that Falcons/Commodores are big and wasteful/inefficient whereas the Mondeo's are considered a Mid sized car (joke is that I have more room in the Mondeo and more boot space!). We are also buying up on Hyundai i30's and i40/i45's as well, again I believe because the general public perceives them to be more "green and cost effective". BTW I work for a Public Hospital so it's taxpayers money we are spending.

NICE TO SEE OUR MONEY GOING TO AUSSIE MADE...NOT

im sooo lost....since when did peoples opinions of quality or economy change over night for HYUNDAI.....cus it did

My wifes gov workplace has priuses and gas guzzling suburus

Brazen · 21-02-2012, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crustyman

Our work fleet is slowly switching over to Mondeo's, they've not purchased a Falcon for about 18 months now. I just sold my G6ET and replaced it with a TDCi Mondeo and I gotta say the Mondeo feels better put together (Both are mid 2008 models) and I can't help thinking the fuel guage is busted because it just doesn't seem to want to budge!

A lot of fleets are switching to diesel Mondeos - the problem is the 4 month wait to get one, everyone wants diesel. Im suprised those fleets dont just jump ship to Ecoboost Mondeo, they cant even give them away at the moment.

burnz · 21-02-2012, 05:43 PM

the hundi's a pretty solid little car, pitty it aint made here.

and in fairness its line ball the cost per week diesel/lpg..

4.0i OHC · 21-02-2012, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

A lot of fleets are switching to diesel Mondeos - the problem is the 4 month wait to get one, everyone wants diesel. Im suprised those fleets dont just jump ship to Ecoboost Mondeo, they cant even give them away at the moment.

The EcoBoost motor, while fuel efficient, is not available in the base LX trim (or in any wagon trim for that matter). Most fleet Mondeos that I see (and I do see a fair few) are LX wagons; the remainder are LX hatches. The 2.3 petrol, as a high revving motor, delivers relatively poor fuel economy (compared to the EcoBoost).

As well as this, I have seen many EcoLPI falcons running around (an even model mix of XT, G6 and G6E). The roads are littered with SZ Territories. I've seen a grand total of one Cruze hatch; it happened to be a dealer's promotional vehicle.

Brazen · 21-02-2012, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

As well as this, I have seen many EcoLPI falcons running around (an even model mix of XT, G6 and G6E). The roads are littered with SZ Territories. I've seen a grand total of one Cruze hatch; it happened to be a dealer's promotional vehicle.

"Relevancy your honour?"

"Sustained"

I get to see a EcoLPI every day - in my driveway

TheSneakiness · 21-02-2012, 06:22 PM

Re: around town diesel figures, I can tell you for fact I get roughly 300km round town running out of 45 litres. (15lt/100km), highway running of about 10lt/100km and extra urban of 8.8lt/100km.

Absolutely pathetic. I for one will never ever buy diesel again based on running costs, insurance and servicing.

Petrol tech is where its at and that's what I'm going back to as soon as funding allows.

burnz · 21-02-2012, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

Re: around town diesel figures, I can tell you for fact I get roughly 300km round town running out of 45 litres. (15lt/100km), highway running of about 10lt/100km and extra urban of 8.8lt/100km.

Absolutely pathetic. I for one will never ever buy diesel again based on running costs, insurance and servicing.

Petrol tech is where its at and that's what I'm going back to as soon as funding allows.

and thats out of a pagero?

Joe5619 · 21-02-2012, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

Re: around town diesel figures, I can tell you for fact I get roughly 300km round town running out of 45 litres. (15lt/100km), highway running of about 10lt/100km and extra urban of 8.8lt/100km.

Absolutely pathetic. I for one will never ever buy diesel again based on running costs, insurance and servicing.

Petrol tech is where its at and that's what I'm going back to as soon as funding allows.

what car you doing that in?

4.0i OHC · 21-02-2012, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

"Relevancy your honour?"

"Sustained"

I get to see a EcoLPI every day - in my driveway

Sorry, that was meant to go in the EcoLPI thread.

Joe5619 · 21-02-2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

A lot of fleets are switching to diesel Mondeos -

I dont know why poeple keep saying this.. Mondeo sales around 500 per month (on a good month).. So it can't be more than that, is that what you class as "A lot"?? I also here (around this forums, not based on data) that Mondeo has high private sales too, so these need to be taken off as well. So what is it people, high private or lots of fleet that are making up this HUGE

500 units a month!!..

I think to many people are trying to build up Mondeo just to have a go at Falcon!!

jpd80 · 21-02-2012, 06:32 PM

Mondeo is in very restricted supply because the engine is used in other popular diesel Fords....
annoying because Ford won't build a diesel plant in Asia because they think Asians all want petrol,
what about us Aussies?

prydey · 21-02-2012, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I think to many people are trying to build up Mondeo just to have a go at Falcon!!

you think?

believe me, its a fact. apparently their feature list is WAY bigger as well. sure, it might be different, and have some things falcon doesn't, but obviously not enough to drag customers to the model over falcon.

jpd80 · 21-02-2012, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

you think?

believe me, its a fact. apparently their feature list is WAY bigger as well. sure, it might be different, and have some things falcon doesn't, but obviously not enough to drag customers to the model over falcon.

In the UK, the base Mondeo is only 4,000 pounds ($6,000) less than the Titanium,
so not only is Ford limiting supply of the 2.0 diesel, they are also price gouging on high series models...

prydey · 21-02-2012, 06:50 PM

price gouging? or just pricing it in line with the market here in australia?

maybe they price it higher to protect falcon?