Unions urge Toyota workers to reject reforms - Page 2

stazza · 10-12-2013, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberKnee

Well if you read my full post you'd see I said pay cuts and and lowering the prices of everything. That's why everything is going kaput in Australia, in a more global economy/market like we have now our ridiculous costs/wages make us too expensive. Everything is retardedly expensive here and we require high wages as result making turning a profit here for big companies, especially foreign owned very hard.

Wait a minute, you just said everything is retardedly expensive and we require high wages as a result, but you're bagging the unions for fighting for reasonable pay.

Quote:

Whats the point in protecting your entitlements now if as a result you don't have a job in a couple of years?

Are you really this stupid? The Holden employees signed on a new EBA with pay cuts and now Holden has basically announced they are done in 2016/17, like they said they would be before they asked the workers to take pay cuts. The workers should have said no, kept their rate of pay and kept the next couple years enjoying a decent wage and entitlements.

How can anyone fall for this ****? The people that fall for this blatant crap are scabs that bludge off the decent wages and rights that union members pay for, with their wallets and their jobs. That nice pay and holiday/sick leave entitlements you have - do you think a company is going to OFFER you that out of a gesture of good faith? No. That **** was fought for and it will be taken away from us slowly but surely because of workers that have no guts to stand up for themselves and are happy just coasting along off others achievements and will have it taken away not having a single fighting chance or a say about it.

**Papa Smurf** · 10-12-2013, 12:14 AM

It seems such and easy thing to blame unions, just like the nazis blamed the Jews for their troubles.
It never ceases to amaze me that the people at the top of the company seem to keep on making heaps like BANKS. Remember when banks were closing branches because they were unsustainable? yet. the CEO and the HIGHER up management still got their offensive salaries?

If you cut some of those salaries maybe a few more shop workers could be kept on at a less cost?

It's hard to make a profit when you have to find $$$ for an unproductive Manager or CEo or??? Salaries of $1 million and up are overkill.

PlukaDuck · 10-12-2013, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottery beige

unions are a bunch of muppets

The muppets was one of Australia.s favourite shows.

On a serious note.
Its not unions that's the problem because the government has removed all there power anyway.
The problem is The Gina rineharts ( richest women in the world)
who wants to use 457 immigrants to build there ROY HILL iron ore mine.
The current government who has just increased the foreign import to 300,000 a year.
The 457 and 456 visa immigrants who then take the money out of the country
And the stupid Aussie who hasn't got the balls anymore to go on strike
to rally and protest.
ITS VERY SIMPLE......IF SOMEONE IS HANGING CRAP ON YOU YOU SMASH THEM . IF YOU DONT THEY KEEP HANGING **** ON YOU

stazza · 10-12-2013, 12:56 AM

All these scabs would prefer a 457 to take their jobs just to get back at the union scum.

I've worked with 457s, nice people but they don't spend a single dime in this country. Every dollar is sent back to their family. Fair enough they want to support their family, but a big **** you to the companies that get these guys in and give away our money so they can sell off our resources to get rich.

I remember going for my crane ticket ages ago, there was a 457 that got sent from my work too, he couldn't even READ the written test and had no hope in hell of operating a crane in a safe manner. He is now operating a crane at that busted *** company and about 15 of us Aussies got the *** a while later. We had no union support there and we got shafted. I know this first hand, I'm not just saying "Yeah! UNIONS! MONEY!!". I've been replaced by cheap labour that had no skill.

SKILLED LABOUR ISN'T CHEAP AND CHEAP LABOUR ISN'T SKILLED.

nstg8a · 10-12-2013, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stazza

Are you really this stupid? The Holden employees signed on a new EBA with pay cuts and now Holden has basically announced they are done in 2016/17, like they said they would be before they asked the workers to take pay cuts. The workers should have said no, kept their rate of pay and kept the next couple years enjoying a decent wage and entitlements.
it.

I thought the Holden deal was only if they get the govco money as well? Holden workers are on the original eba until then?

mik · 10-12-2013, 02:13 AM

I don't believe it is unions that made industry unprofitable in this country, let us not forget every ......other ..........car ..........maker that has tried and failed to keep going in Australia over the years, this phenomena has been engineered,
I have said it a few times before, our industry has been nobbled on purpose by consecutive govco's since the 70's, this was a concession signed up for with the UN decades ago, and you can find the documents if you spend enough time behind the keyboard, this is fact !
regardless of crocodile tears by govco these days , they will never admit nobbling our industry,
the only way for these car companys to build cars here competitively with the rest of the world is if we make the fta work on level playing field (never gunna happen).............. but as I said earlier in another post, our pollies decades ago signed up to kill off 30% of our industry to give 3rd world countrys access to our markets, deal done, job done, game set and match.
unions are a very small part of the equation gents.

b0son · 10-12-2013, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papa Smurf

It seems such and easy thing to blame unions, just like the nazis

seriously? invoking Godwin? thread locked in 3... 2.... 1......

robertjp · 10-12-2013, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by |||

better to die on your feet than live on your knees

and look how he ended up!

SumoDog68 · 10-12-2013, 08:02 AM

Toyota knows that after Holdens exit it wont be able to make cars in Australia due to supplier base issues.
They decided to ask their workforce to accept reduction in pay and conditions and if they refuse then they look bad. ( regular union bashers just love the opportunity)
For those who dont get this - if you agreed to do a job for someone and signed a contract about pay and conditions - how would you feel if customer decided to pay you less because in Thailand labour is cheaper ??
Even if toyota workforce accept this it wont make a difference to their decicision to stay. Did they drop Hilux prices when production moved from Japan to Thailand ?

fte50 · 10-12-2013, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stazza

SKILLED LABOUR ISN'T CHEAP AND CHEAP LABOUR ISN'T SKILLED.

Simple words of genius and 100% spot on. Hope you found better in the end.

hedgehobb · 10-12-2013, 09:50 AM

What I don't understand is, why does a Porsche cost $400k here?

johnydep · 10-12-2013, 10:05 AM

Goodbye Toyota. Goodbye Holden. Nice knowing you, it was fun while it lasted. I'll treasure this last model that I purchased, to do my bit for an Aussie car maker, and hand the VF SS-V to a grand child, if I have any.

Quote:

Grace Collier -
ONLY $150 million a year will save Holden? Rubbish. The Holden Enterprise Agreement is the document that has utterly sunk Holden's prospects. It defies belief that someone in the company isn't being held to account for it.

Holden's management masks a union culture beyond most people's comprehension. Employment costs spiralled way beyond community standards long ago. Neither "pay freezes" nor more money will save Holden, but getting the Fair Work Commission to dissolve the agreement and put all workers on the award wage might be a start.

In 1991, the pre-enterprise bargaining award wage of a Holden entry level process worker was $462.80 a week. In 1992, Holden began enterprise bargaining and now a worker at that same classification level has a base rate of $1194.50 a week, a 158 per cent increase, or a compound increase of 4.4 per cent year on year for 22 years. Right now, base wage rates for process workers in the Holden enterprise agreement are in the $60,000 to $80,000 per year range and in recent times, "hardship payments" of $3750 were given to each worker.

The modern award for such workers mandates base rates in the $37,000 to $42,000 range. This means that before we add any of the shift penalties, loadings, 26 allowances and the added cost of productivity restrictions, Holden begins each working day paying its workforce almost double what it should. After you add in the other employment costs, I estimate Holden's workforce costs it somewhere close to triple the amount it should.

Many people who work at Holden don't actually work for Holden; they work for the union. Occupational health and safety people are given 10 days' paid time off a year to be trained by the union. Most companies do not allow unions to train their OH&S people because the knowledge is used to control the workplace to the benefit of the union.

Union delegates are also allowed up to 10 paid days a year for union training in how to be effective union delegates and two of these delegates are entitled to an extra Holden sponsorship of one paid month off to "further their industrial and/or leadership development".

Holden's rules on hiring casuals are shocking and unheard of in today's market. The agreement forbids Holden from hiring casuals except when a "short-term increase in workload, or other unusual circumstances occurs". If this situation arises Holden has to "consult and reach agreement" with the union. Further, "Engagement of the agreed number of casual personnel will be for the agreed specified tasks and the agreed specified periods." If any of this changes, Holden must get union agreement again. After three months of continuous full-time work a casual must be made permanent. It is impossible to run a business like this.

An ex-employee from Adelaide, on condition of anonymity, consented to an interview yesterday. He described the workforce as "over-managed", with one team leader for every six workers on the production line, when one for every 25 workers would suffice.

He said "some of us workers felt it wasn't necessary to get paid what we were getting paid to do the jobs we were doing", adding that their work is probably worth about "20 bucks an hour". A few years back, mates took redundancy packages in the order of "$280k plus". Workers are "like sheep" that blindly follow the union leadership. At induction, new workers are ushered into one-on-one meetings with the union rep who heavies them into joining. "It is made clear that if you don't join the union you will be sacked," he said. Union representatives "don't actually do any work for Holden", but rather make themselves full-time enforcers of union control.

He says workers are drug tested before hiring, but "only have to stay off it for a few weeks, get in the door and then you'll be right". Workers caught taking drugs or being drug-affected at work are allegedly put on a fully paid rehabilitation program, with special paid time off of about four weeks duration, before being let back into the workforce.

Australian workplaces have a zero tolerance for drug use, with instant dismissal the remedy, but at Holden "the union won't let the company sack" any workers caught dealing, taking or being on drugs. "If they did a random drug test tomorrow they'd probably have to sack 40 per cent of the workforce," he adds.

If the Holden scenario were playing out in a privately owned business, proper cost-cutting strategies would be used. If you have the will and can hire the skill, there are many ways to cut labour costs. The workers can be given a couple of years notice of significant wage drops and can receive lump sum payouts of entitlements to help bring down family debt.

Of course, these strategies are only ever used by business people who have no one else to bail them out. It seems Holden would rather leave the country than dissolve its enterprise agreement. The union thinks members are better off jobless than on award wages. Holden's fate seems sealed.

If Holden does leave, workers will receive the most generous redundancy benefits around. Holden says leaving will cost $600m. Most of this will go to staff payouts. The fellow interviewed agrees with my calculation: the average production-line worker will walk away with a redundancy package of between $300k-500k.

superyob · 10-12-2013, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hedgehobb

What I don't understand is, why does a Porsche cost $400k here?

A Porsche what? There are many differing models and spec levels...

superyob · 10-12-2013, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlukaDuck

The muppets was one of Australia.s favourite shows.

On a serious note.
Its not unions that's the problem because the government has removed all there power anyway.
The problem is The Gina rineharts ( richest women in the world)
who wants to use 457 immigrants to build there ROY HILL iron ore mine.
The current government who has just increased the foreign import to 300,000 a year.
The 457 and 456 visa immigrants who then take the money out of the country
And the stupid Aussie who hasn't got the balls anymore to go on strike
to rally and protest.
ITS VERY SIMPLE......IF SOMEONE IS HANGING CRAP ON YOU YOU SMASH THEM . IF YOU DONT THEY KEEP HANGING **** ON YOU

How do they do this?

b0son · 10-12-2013, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stazza

SKILLED LABOUR ISN'T CHEAP AND CHEAP LABOUR ISN'T SKILLED.

Process work isn't exactly skilled.

I think its symptomatic of the Aus blue collar workforce in general. There's a view that ANY form of training, no matter how short, makes someone skilled and therefore worthy of top dollar.

Skilled equals months/years of training.

MAD · 10-12-2013, 11:49 AM

RE 457's; Has nobody in history ever travelled and sacrificed to try and "make it"?

Some of those people spend years without contact with their families (wives, children they've never met). Not a life I'd like to be faced with.

stazza · 10-12-2013, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

Process work isn't exactly skilled.

I think its symptomatic of the Aus blue collar workforce in general. There's a view that ANY form of training, no matter how short, makes someone skilled and therefore worthy of top dollar.

Skilled equals months/years of training.

I'm not speaking particularly about the Holden factory workers, I'm more speaking of my own experiences with and without union support, and to the people that are bagging the unions at any chance they get. Some of us have "fallen" in to a decent job without any prior skills or knowledge and just coasted along, most of these guys in my experience will bag the unions because they don't know what it's like to 'earn' a living and have all your hard work at stake. And some of us are those guys that have worked hard against odds at times and been through many ups and downs to get where in a position we have worked towards for years, then you get the company that will shaft you for a 457 because it saves them a bit of dough.

Unions give us a voice loud enough for people to hear it. If you go to the boss with these similar concerns, they will tell you to bugger off, but if you go to the boss with union backing there is a far higher chance that you will be heard.

As for the post above me - how is that any of our concern? Why should we give our resources, our jobs away because we feel sorry for some other bloke wants to come have a piece of our pie. He doesn't put anything back into our economy. They just come and take the money and leave.

fte50 · 10-12-2013, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

Process work isn't exactly skilled.

I think its symptomatic of the Aus blue collar workforce in general. There's a view that ANY form of training, no matter how short, makes someone skilled and therefore worthy of top dollar.

Skilled equals months/years of training.

Packing ice cream sticks into a box, down the conveyor and the next fella tapes the box etc etc..... wel yeah, not much skill.

However if you HONESTLY believe even the most non demanding of jobs in a vehicle manufacturing environment require no more than the above level of skill set(or lack of) well your plain wrong. The dead wood was flushed long ago.
Rocket scientists they are not (some close) however the days of a fixed brain dead routine are long gone.

MAD · 10-12-2013, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stazza

Some of us have "fallen" in to a decent job without any prior skills or knowledge and just coasted along, most of these guys in my experience will bag the unions because they don't know what it's like to 'earn' a living and have all your hard work at stake.

The first people that come to mind with no prior skills/knowledge in a cushy/coasting job are pollies and public servants.

Seriously, I don't think there'd be too many people that find themselves in this situation that you mention, and if you think that's how they got there, you probably don't know the full story.

My previous post is simply pointing out that they are only trying to make a life for themselves and their families, with a sacrifice greater than most Aussies would pursue.

johnydep · 10-12-2013, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stazza

I'm not speaking particularly about the Holden factory workers, I'm more speaking of my own experiences with and without union support, and to the people that are bagging the unions at any chance they get. Some of us have "fallen" in to a decent job without any prior skills or knowledge and just coasted along, most of these guys in my experience will bag the unions because they don't know what it's like to 'earn' a living and have all your hard work at stake. And some of us are those guys that have worked hard against odds at times and been through many ups and downs to get where in a position we have worked towards for years, ......

Sounds like 95% of the people I know and meet every day. Only a small fraction are union members.

Most people that work have or are in positions that you describe. Should I start a list of what my wife and I have had to do since leaving school to get where we are today, and to maintain what we have?

**MercurySilver** · 10-12-2013, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottery beige

unions are a bunch of muppets

some are some arent

our company just tried to screw its wage earners to the wall
just taking ***** left right and centre (they had 42 claims as a company they wanted to take/change)

or course the salary employees lost nothing and got a higher % in pay rise offered to them

we stood fat as a union
and got what we wanted

not all unions and union members are muppets

vztrt · 10-12-2013, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fte50

Packing ice cream sticks into a box, down the conveyor and the next fella tapes the box etc etc..... wel yeah, not much skill.

However if you HONESTLY believe even the most non demanding of jobs in a vehicle manufacturing environment require no more than the above level of skill set(or lack of) well your plain wrong. The dead wood was flushed long ago.
Rocket scientists they are not (some close) however the days of a fixed brain dead routine are long gone.

This does go for cars that have different models and variants on one line.

fte50 · 10-12-2013, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD

RE 457's; Has nobody in history ever travelled and sacrificed to try and "make it"?

Some of those people spend years without contact with their families (wives, children they've never met). Not a life I'd like to be faced with.

Oh please, spare me the crap.
Yep, just look at the heap of euro immigrants of the 50s-60s.

Difference was they generally demanded better conditions and pay, and together with the existing workforce achieved it.

Whilst the minority of them were scabs as they have always existed, the majority would not undercut existing values & conditions and undermine the local workforce by undercutting and sacrificing their standards.

A far cry different from ALL those on a 457 that are willing to take YOUR job at ANY cost. They are purely a politically engineered form of deskilling the nation and eroding existing wages and conditions.

Do not give me the pro 457 or sob 457 crap.

MAD · 10-12-2013, 01:16 PM

Oh come on... not everything that happens in this world is a political engineering process.
Culturally, the majority of 457's probably feel disgusted to earn the amount we are paid for the jobs they are doing.

stazza · 10-12-2013, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD

The first people that come to mind with no prior skills/knowledge in a cushy/coasting job are pollies and public servants.

Seriously, I don't think there'd be too many people that find themselves in this situation that you mention, and if you think that's how they got there, you probably don't know the full story.

My previous post is simply pointing out that they are only trying to make a life for themselves and their families, with a sacrifice greater than most Aussies would pursue.

Mate we have a whole bunch of TA's at work that come from coles and woolworths. They are just **** kickers that have no clue. They get bullied by the bosses and have no idea what to say or do about it. They won't join the union because they are happy with their new pay rate, yet the EBA was fully union negotiated and fought for. But they wont pay 15 bucks a week and be part of the union that got them that agreement. It's selfish and its people that who let the bosses do what they do.

fte50 · 10-12-2013, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD;495****

Oh come on... not everything that happens in this world is a political engineering process.
Culturally, the majority of 457's probably feel disgusted to earn the amount we are paid for the jobs they are doing.

No not everything, but 457s sure are.
On the cultural aspect, if this is true, they have no place in our society. My forefathers didn't expect "strangers" take food off their table due to their own cultural differences.

MAD · 10-12-2013, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stazza

Mate we have a whole bunch of TA's at work that come from coles and woolworths. They are just **** kickers that have no clue.

If they're so bad, why are the kept on?

MAD · 10-12-2013, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fte50

No not everything, but 457s sure are.
On the cultural aspect, if this is true, they have no place in our society. My forefathers didn't expect "strangers" take food off their table due to their own cultural differences.

You really have no idea how thankful they are to be able to work here do you?

stazza · 10-12-2013, 01:37 PM

This MAD bloke is just talking out of his *** and clearly has no personal experience on the issue, he is just drawing from assumptions. You can't just assume how it is when there are people posting in this thread that know exactly how it is.

If the 457s are offended by our wages then maybe they should go back home and let a struggling middle aged family man have a chance at making a living.

When you keep pulling this bullshit out of your *** it just proves you have absolutely no personal experience in these matters. You will believe anything the media says about the big bad unions because you don't know **** and it simply doesn't concern you. Maybe you should keep your UNEDUCATED opinions to yourself and let us people that are actually in this industry decide what is best for us due to our own experiences.

Gadgetman · 10-12-2013, 01:40 PM

who gives a continental. Just wind up all 3 local manufactuers today!!!