FYI: Tax rates going up

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Both i believe, if they start putting them down here (and there is talk) i may have to review my sailing grounds, i would hate to run my mast into one of those props at night.....

I can just imagine the purists, 'you can't ruin our coastline with that!' combine that with 'you can't ruin our air with that' re: CO2 and we're all pretty well stuffed...

How far offshore are they actually putting them? I did read it said shallow, but how shallow are we talking?

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I can just imagine the purists, 'you can't ruin our coastline with that!' combine that with 'you can't ruin our air with that' re: CO2 and we're all pretty well stuffed...

How far offshore are they actually putting them? I did read it said shallow, but how shallow are we talking?

Would be a great sight along the Great Ocean Road ... Great Barrier Reef? Maybe Sydney Harbor or the Ninety Mile beach .... Sorrento?

Nope ..... they will plonk them in the general country side and if one happens to go in your back yard it will be stiff when you have no say in it. Have seen them outside Ballarat and the first few times they look interesting ...... then its a case of ..... "Glad I don't have to live with them and they aren't in my back yard...."

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I can just imagine the purists, 'you can't ruin our coastline with that!' combine that with 'you can't ruin our air with that' re: CO2 and we're all pretty well stuffed...

How far offshore are they actually putting them? I did read it said shallow, but how shallow are we talking?

Most are bottom-mounted in areas less than 50 feet deep, although a few are in waters 150 feet deep....it would depend on your coastline and areas of population i would think...??

Heaps of info here if your interested...

Nice sunset...

[SEZ213]

All I can say is WOW! Thanks for that

This looks funky...

Virtually invisible to the human eye - no-one would even know it was there, and yet it is, producing energy...

http://inhabitat.com/aquamarine-powe...or-1/?extend=1

I'm curious as to the material used to create it, but couldn't seem to find a definitive answer, surely steel wouldn't be a viable option because of salt corrosion of the components...?

It appears that the government over there is actually interested in alternatives, and are backing them...which further compounds my own feelings that we're just getting shafted for no reason...

http://www.aquamarinepower.com/news/...core-contract/

[WMD351]

An American comparison of energy costs including construction costs, the numbers would be different for us as setting up for nuclear would initially cost a lot more, and our coal is also much cheaper
http://nuclearfissionary.com/2010/04...ind-and-solar/


Getting back to the tax bit, I think the thing is that our coal gives us a great advantage, it makes us competitive internationally by affording us cheap electricity and that in turn provides the prosperity that gives us a high standard of living.
If we go and turn our best advantage into a disadvantage it's going to reduce our quality of life.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I'm curious as to the material used to create it, but couldn't seem to find a definitive answer, surely steel wouldn't be a viable option because of salt corrosion of the components...?

Some of the steel structures we are putting on the bottom of Bass Strait at moment have a life span of 60/70 years, the coatings available these days are pretty good....

[z80]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Would be a great sight along the Great Ocean Road ... Great Barrier Reef? Maybe Sydney Harbor or the Ninety Mile beach .... Sorrento?

Nope ..... they will plonk them in the general country side and if one happens to go in your back yard it will be stiff when you have no say in it. Have seen them outside Ballarat and the first few times they look interesting ...... then its a case of ..... "Glad I don't have to live with them and they aren't in my back yard...."

Simple fact is that you need to locate electricity as close to your consumers as possible.

It's all about the transmission losses....also a damn good reason to put solar panels on every roof...virtually no losses.

But...real bad for foreign owned power companies if everyone makes their own power at home.

[Scott]

I like the idea of "off-shore" wind, or even Tidal Turbines... but nothing beats Nuclear for mine.

[z80]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Would love to do that ..... just reach into my wallet and grab that $40,000 out of my back pocket.

Price for electricity in our house (at the moment) is approx $2000 per year ..... thats 20 years before I start saving anything ...... even if I get a rebate still a long time for a return ..... and that's if I stay here for that long which I most probably wont ..... then start again with the investment.

Plenty of people seem to find enough to buy a new V8 or SUV of greater value than a lifetime supply of solar panels , and of course the cars depreciate like all fury from day one...

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by z80

Simple fact is that you need to locate electricity as close to your consumers as possible.

It's all about the transmission losses....also a damn good reason to put solar panels on every roof...virtually no losses.

But...real bad for foreign owned power companies if everyone makes their own power at home.

hats off to you . i read your last 2 posts here , and its great . but i did think of a few things reading them , $40 000 outlay for free power , even at 50% rebate that is still $20 000 upfront.
the 1st point i thought of is with a carbon tax , you'll be paying for other peoples energy use, when you buy there goods , perhaps this is a recoup plan .
2ndly those who cant afford solar panels , ie pensioners, low income earners , single mums , etc are paying for your rebates , and others who can afford it .
is this a case of taking from the poor and giving to the rich ?

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by WMD351

Getting back to the tax bit, I think the thing is that our coal gives us a great advantage, it makes us competitive internationally by affording us cheap electricity and that in turn provides the prosperity that gives us a high standard of living.
If we go and turn our best advantage into a disadvantage it's going to reduce our quality of life.

My electricity bill has gone up...200 bucks a year, with no change in energy consumption... :(

Can't win, they stiffed us for 15% increase last year...and appears we'll get stooged again with this CT deal...

I don't know what the comparison rates are with what they pay per kw/h electricity in other countries, but I'm not sure we're getting a good deal... :S

[z80]

Originally Posted by Scott

I like the idea of "off-shore" wind, or even Tidal Turbines... but nothing beats Nuclear for mine.

Some Japanese citizens would love to give you a different perspective on what happens when Nuclear power is run by people intent on maximising profits by slashing maintanence programs....they might be able to go back to their farms in around 500 years....

[gtfpv]

sezzy steel pipes in salt water can be nuetralised against corrosion for 100 years with static low voltage applied electricity at the point where the steel meets the water line . very scientific and works well .

[gtfpv]

i'm against nuclear as i'm sure most australians would be .

[bungarra]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Does anyone have this list of the terrible 500???

According to Govco, this is confidential information!!! I am paying for government secrets

A mate who is high up in the TWU in WA showed me a memo from Greg Combet telling the union not to make a big deal out of the new tax or strike over it as it would show a lack of support for the Caucus (Union Run) and the Labor Party. He even admitted, had it been brought in by the Liberals, the TWU and CFMEU would already be running rolling strikes!

Makes me glad I no longer belong to the unions, even the French Unions didn't put up the white flag so easily when they tried the same trick in France. Truckies were on strike within two days and the tax was dumped as socially irresponsible.

But then again, we are Australians and are more apathetic.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by z80

you are wrong....very,very wrong.

I have an 8.5kw system in Victoria and I produce more than I use.

It cost 40 thousand dollars to self install.

The government gave us a 50% tax break to buy it as part of the stimulus package for businesses...and fully depreciable.

All my associates bought luxury cars as the stimulus package, I bought solar panels instead....it was a no brainer....

With depreciation and GST refund it is paid for in 20 months.

We will never...ever...pay for electricity...not one cent as long as we live.

In fact we currently get approx $500 a quarter credit....in WINTER

No brown coal needed here.

Private consumers generally don't have the ability to make their electricity depreciable (unlike a business)...so whilst bully for you for having 40k to fork out and getting 50% tax break...it's not really the same thing is it?

[z80]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

hats off to you . i read your last 2 posts here , and its great . but i did think of a few things reading them , $40 000 outlay for free power , even at 50% rebate that is still $20 000 upfront.
the 1st point i thought of is with a carbon tax , you'll be paying for other peoples energy use, when you buy there goods , perhaps this is a recoup plan .
2ndly those who cant afford solar panels , ie pensioners, low income earners , single mums , etc are paying for your rebates , and others who can afford it .
is this a case of taking from the poor and giving to the rich ?

Just to clear the maths a bit....

40,000...this is pretax dollars as it is a deductible expense


4,000 GST claimed back immeidiately (so a total of $4k saved)

36,000 at 50% tax rebate= $18k outlayed.

The best part?

depreciation is on the purchase price before the rebate....so 20% of 40k is 8k depreciation in the first year...

18k out of pocket becomes 10k after only 12 months.

But in that 12 months also 4k saved on electricity.....so really only owed 6k balance.



2nd year...

depreciation is 20% of 32k or $6400...amount owed is zero....$400 positive


Now isn't that a nice set of numbers?

It would actually have been worthwhile borrowing the money.


Note...no solar rebate claimed or needed...so not robbing any pensioners.


But note 14k would have been lost in tax on the 40k anyway!

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by bungarra

According to Govco, this is confidential information!!! I am paying for government secrets

A mate who is high up in the TWU in WA showed me a memo from Greg Combet telling the union not to make a big deal out of the new tax or strike over it as it would show a lack of support for the Caucus (Union Run) and the Labor Party. He even admitted, had it been brought in by the Liberals, the TWU and CFMEU would already be running rolling strikes!

Makes me glad I no longer belong to the unions, even the French Unions didn't put up the white flag so easily when they tried the same trick in France. Truckies were on strike within two days and the tax was dumped as socially irresponsible.

But then again, we are Australians and are more apathetic.

most unions are against liberal and labor , but the trade off is support off labor , and pay rises not compromised , versus entitlement losses , like redundancy and sick pay , permanancy , and annual leave with liberals .
they dont like either party , but they veiw one as a lesser evil to ordinary folk .

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by z80

Just to clear the maths a bit....

40,000...this is pretax dollars as it is a deductible expense


4,000 GST claimed back immeidiately (so a total of $4k saved)

36,000 at 50% tax rebate= $18k outlayed.

The best part?

depreciation is on the purchase price before the rebate....so 20% of 40k is 8k depreciation in the first year...

18k out of pocket becomes 10k after only 12 months.

But in that 12 months also 4k saved on electricity.....so really only owed 6k balance.



2nd year...

depreciation is 20% of 32k or $6400...amount owed is zero....$400 positive


Now isn't that a nice set of numbers?

It would actually have been worthwhile borrowing the money.


Note...no solar rebate claimed or needed...so not robbing any pensioners.


But note 14k would have been lost in tax on the 40k anyway!

yeah pretty good point. not knocking anyone for taking it up , just wondering if all could thats all .

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by z80

Some Japanese citizens would love to give you a different perspective on what happens when Nuclear power is run by people intent on maximising profits by slashing maintanence programs....they might be able to go back to their farms in around 500 years....

What? When were they slashing maintenance programs?? And what does a maintenance program have to do with a generator ending up under water...???

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i'm against nuclear as i'm sure most australians would be .

Any particular reason?

[WMD351]

z80, just curious how many panels do you have?

[z80]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Private consumers generally don't have the ability to make their electricity depreciable (unlike a business)...so whilst bully for you for having 40k to fork out and getting 50% tax break...it's not really the same thing is it?

Have you got $75 bucks?

Get an ABN from your local office of fair trading and register for GST.

Instant 10% discount on just about everything.

As long as the invoice is to your registered business name you will get the GST back unchallenged.

It's called the New tax System and John Howard, (love the man), invented it.

And you are not breaking any law.

Only silly people don't have an ABN in a free enterprise system.

[cheap]

Newest poll results from Roy Morgan Research

Before the CO2 tax (2 party preferred) Libs/Nats 58.5% V's ALP 41.5%

After the CO2 tax Libs/Nats 60.5% V's ALP 39.5%

Perhaps the "ordinary and uninformed" people don't understand the concept of taxing ourselves into prosperity - who would have thought?

[z80]

Originally Posted by WMD351

z80, just curious how many panels do you have?

40x BP monocrystalline 85 watters.
30x BP monocrystalline 175 watters.

Two inverters SMA3800 and SMA5000TL.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

What? When were they slashing maintenance programs?? And what does a maintenance program have to do with a generator ending up under water...???



Any particular reason?

this may sound silly , but capitalists corporations, see nothing but $$$$ and cost reductions . human nature has a shocking record of being incredibly stupid , even though ewe have the technology , somewhere down the line theres a dumb #F# running the show . it shouldnt work that way , but anyone with engineering concepts always knows that the minute someone of a financial nature is in charge , the word engineer suddenly became tied to domestic duties . i dont wish to debate this further , been in the game far to long and nno what goes on and how umb we have become in the last 50 years . the evidence is everywhere , and the public doesnt know , because there is always some jack rrrrs in a suit telling the people on air , that everything is alright , look at my armani suit , i wouldnt be wearing this if i wasnt a GOD . pessimistic i know .
but even what happened in fukushima , was preventable , had they had more redundancies , and the japs engineering i consider to be among the worlds best .
so it wasnt a miscalculated error . get my drift .

an australian example of the wisdom of engineering . THE M5 TUNNEL , the company that built it quoted it to be 3 lanes each way at a much cheaper cost (per lane) than 2 lanes each way . the suggestion was rejected by GOVT . saying we would like to pursuade people to use public transport rather than drive a car . now we have a stupid road not capable of future port cargo( that would be trucks with containers on them) transport.
considering the harbour bridge was still origionally designed to have a 2nd tier road if required .
shows the stupidity of our corporate elites these days . another example .
the iron cove 2nd bridge .

[z80]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

What? When were they slashing maintenance programs?? And what does a maintenance program have to do with a generator ending up under water...???
Any particular reason?

yep....they cut costs by having both generators located at ground level some years ago instead of being elevated as was recommended in a recent plant upgrade.

When the tsunami hit the generators were completely water logged and would not start to provide coolant for the core.

They have admitted that it was a cost saving measure at the construction phase.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by z80

Some Japanese citizens would love to give you a different perspective on what happens when Nuclear power is run by people intent on maximising profits by slashing maintanence programs....they might be able to go back to their farms in around 500 years....

Agreed, that's why I'd want it publicly owned - as all essential services should be. Let DoD manage them, it suits their portfolio best anyway.

[WMD351]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

My electricity bill has gone up...200 bucks a year, with no change in energy consumption... :(

That's what really sticks in my craw. Pensioners and the poor are going without, scared to turn on their heaters, going to bed early so they don't have to turn on the lights, and doing everything they can to cut back, but it makes no difference!
There's going to be a tax, so prices go up.
There's not going to be a tax, so prices go up.
There's uncertainty about the tax, prices go up again.
I pay the service fees to cover infrastructure, but apparently they've failed to maintain the infrastructure and it needs a complete overhaul, more charges...

Off topic, just googling around sea wind turbines I've stumbled on a video for 'horrific para surfing accident'... oh dear.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

this may sound silly , but capitalists corporations, see nothing but $$$$ and cost reductions . human nature has a shocking record of being incredibly stupid , even though ewe have the technology , somewhere down the line theres a dumb #F# running the show . it shouldnt work that way , but anyone with engineering concepts always knows that the minute someone of a financial nature is in charge , the word engineer suddenly became tied to domestic duties . i dont wish to debate this further , been in the game far to long and nno what goes on and how umb we have become in the last 50 years . the evidence is everywhere , and the public doesnt know , because there is always some jack rrrrs in a suit telling the people on air , that everything is alright , look at my armani suit , i wouldnt be wearing this if i wasnt a GOD . pessimistic i know .
but even what happened in fukushima , was preventable , had they had more redundancies , and the japs engineering i consider to be among the worlds best .
so it wasnt a miscalculated error . get my drift .

an australian example of the wisdom of engineering . THE M5 TUNNEL , the company that built it quoted it to be 3 lanes each way at a much cheaper cost (per lane) than 2 lanes each way . the suggestion was rejected by GOVT . saying we would like to pursuade people to use public transport rather than drive a car . now we have a stupid road not capable of future port cargo( that would be trucks with containers on them) transport.
considering the harbour bridge was still origionally designed to have a 2nd tier road if required .
shows the stupidity of our corporate elites these days . another example .
the iron cove 2nd bridge .

That's fair enough, I'm just curious at to people's understanding of nuclear. Most people I've spoken to have no idea on the actual technology, they just look at an individual event...and go from there, making assumptions and the like...bit like the CT issue to be honest...

We'd spend twenty years doing a nuclear feasability study at the cost of 6 or 7 billion a year, only to say it wasn't viable anyway...

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by WMD351

An American comparison of energy costs including construction costs, the numbers would be different for us as setting up for nuclear would initially cost a lot more, and our coal is also much cheaper
http://nuclearfissionary.com/2010/04...ind-and-solar/


Getting back to the tax bit, I think the thing is that our coal gives us a great advantage, it makes us competitive internationally by affording us cheap electricity and that in turn provides the prosperity that gives us a high standard of living.
If we go and turn our best advantage into a disadvantage it's going to reduce our quality of life.

Do you realise that we already pay ~ 20cents/kWh in this country for coal based electricity when thats the actual value shown on the graph for solar?

Checking the link, the graph doesnt include distribution costs, but it helps you see how much the distribution companies are making from it all, they are the ones that have driven the price up in the last couple of years, in reality the carbon tax is nothing compared to the excesses they have been piling on.

Nor does the graph/info show the cost of the fuels for the non renewables, what was the price of coal, uranium and natural gas they were using?

Checking the link also reveals the solar numbers were calculated using generation from photovoltaics, currently the most expensive way of creating electricity. The price for solar thermal plants s can be much less on large scale.

while I dont forsee that there will be a great increase in the efficiency of voltaics in the next 10 years or so, I do see the cost of making them continue to drop(much like the cost of hard drive base on a computer), and hence making them a much more affordable proposition.

Whether it then becomes more cost effective to have photovoltaic power stations or have them fitted on peoples roofs and bypass the distribution problems, time will see.